Hong Kong demonstrations

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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by ∞∞∞ »

CID1990 wrote: Ok

I don’t have the energy to unpack this tripe

The Enlightenment was a eureka moment in civilization - born of all that willing oppressive history you cite

It was the birth of classical liberalism which at its heart is individual liberty as a natural right.
Please unpack it; I love philosophy and biology (especially anthropology). It makes for good discussion (certainly better than politics).

And of course the Enlightenment was a major "eureka" moment in civilization and the philosophy of individual liberty is born from it. It's a great philosophy - one which suppresses some natural inclinations - but it's not our "natural state." I feel like stating otherwise completely ignores human biology, evolution, history, and even the present tendencies of most societies.

There's nothing natural about individual liberty in an inherently social animal. It's a purely human construct - a radical one at that - which future civilizations can replace if deemed necessary. That ability to quickly shift ideas (and create imagined realities) is what makes our species successful. Yet the natural inclination to seek security and social acceptance can't be killed because it's wired into our brains.
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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by Skjellyfetti »

CID1990 wrote:It was the birth of classical liberalism which at its heart is individual liberty as a natural right
This is really going to give SDHornet a headache trying to comprehend.
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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by SDHornet »

Skjellyfetti wrote:
CID1990 wrote:It was the birth of classical liberalism which at its heart is individual liberty as a natural right
This is really going to give SDHornet a headache trying to comprehend.
Not at all, because CID nails it yet again. :thumb:
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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by AZGrizFan »

∞∞∞ wrote:
CID1990 wrote: Ok

I don’t have the energy to unpack this tripe

The Enlightenment was a eureka moment in civilization - born of all that willing oppressive history you cite

It was the birth of classical liberalism which at its heart is individual liberty as a natural right.
Please unpack it; I love philosophy and biology (especially anthropology). It makes for good discussion (certainly better than politics).

And of course the Enlightenment was a major "eureka" moment in civilization and the philosophy of individual liberty is born from it. It's a great philosophy - one which suppresses some natural inclinations - but it's not our "natural state." I feel like stating otherwise completely ignores human biology, evolution, history, and even the present tendencies of most societies.

There's nothing natural about individual liberty in an inherently social animal. It's a purely human construct - a radical one at that - which future civilizations can replace if deemed necessary. That ability to quickly shift ideas (and create imagined realities) is what makes our species successful. Yet the natural inclination to seek security and social acceptance can't be killed because it's wired into our brains.
Spoken like a true The-government-will-solve-all-our-problems-if-we-just-abdicate-all-power-and-freedoms-to-them-neo-liberal.
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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by css75 »

Liberty is an inalienable right, endowed by our creator.


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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by GannonFan »

∞∞∞ wrote:
CID1990 wrote: Ok

I don’t have the energy to unpack this tripe

The Enlightenment was a eureka moment in civilization - born of all that willing oppressive history you cite

It was the birth of classical liberalism which at its heart is individual liberty as a natural right.
Please unpack it; I love philosophy and biology (especially anthropology). It makes for good discussion (certainly better than politics).

And of course the Enlightenment was a major "eureka" moment in civilization and the philosophy of individual liberty is born from it. It's a great philosophy - one which suppresses some natural inclinations - but it's not our "natural state." I feel like stating otherwise completely ignores human biology, evolution, history, and even the present tendencies of most societies.

There's nothing natural about individual liberty in an inherently social animal. It's a purely human construct - a radical one at that - which future civilizations can replace if deemed necessary. That ability to quickly shift ideas (and create imagined realities) is what makes our species successful. Yet the natural inclination to seek security and social acceptance can't be killed because it's wired into our brains.
You write as though you don't really know what liberty means. It's not just, or even, an idea of being able to and actually wanting to live like a hermit, out in the woods, devoid of any human contact or interaction. That can be liberty, sure, but it's just an extreme thing. Liberty is simply being able to choose what you want to do, being able to make your own decisions, and leading your life the way you choose to do it. Shared security and social acceptance, to the point you want it, don't contradict individual liberty, they exist alongside of it.
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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by AZGrizFan »

GannonFan wrote:
∞∞∞ wrote: Please unpack it; I love philosophy and biology (especially anthropology). It makes for good discussion (certainly better than politics).

And of course the Enlightenment was a major "eureka" moment in civilization and the philosophy of individual liberty is born from it. It's a great philosophy - one which suppresses some natural inclinations - but it's not our "natural state." I feel like stating otherwise completely ignores human biology, evolution, history, and even the present tendencies of most societies.

There's nothing natural about individual liberty in an inherently social animal. It's a purely human construct - a radical one at that - which future civilizations can replace if deemed necessary. That ability to quickly shift ideas (and create imagined realities) is what makes our species successful. Yet the natural inclination to seek security and social acceptance can't be killed because it's wired into our brains.
You write as though you don't really know what liberty means. It's not just, or even, an idea of being able to and actually wanting to live like a hermit, out in the woods, devoid of any human contact or interaction. That can be liberty, sure, but it's just an extreme thing. Liberty is simply being able to choose what you want to do, being able to make your own decisions, and leading your life the way you choose to do it. Shared security and social acceptance, to the point you want it, don't contradict individual liberty, they exist alongside of it.
Not in a liberal's mind. :dunce: :dunce:
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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by CID1990 »

GannonFan wrote:
∞∞∞ wrote: Please unpack it; I love philosophy and biology (especially anthropology). It makes for good discussion (certainly better than politics).

And of course the Enlightenment was a major "eureka" moment in civilization and the philosophy of individual liberty is born from it. It's a great philosophy - one which suppresses some natural inclinations - but it's not our "natural state." I feel like stating otherwise completely ignores human biology, evolution, history, and even the present tendencies of most societies.

There's nothing natural about individual liberty in an inherently social animal. It's a purely human construct - a radical one at that - which future civilizations can replace if deemed necessary. That ability to quickly shift ideas (and create imagined realities) is what makes our species successful. Yet the natural inclination to seek security and social acceptance can't be killed because it's wired into our brains.
You write as though you don't really know what liberty means. It's not just, or even, an idea of being able to and actually wanting to live like a hermit, out in the woods, devoid of any human contact or interaction. That can be liberty, sure, but it's just an extreme thing. Liberty is simply being able to choose what you want to do, being able to make your own decisions, and leading your life the way you choose to do it. Shared security and social acceptance, to the point you want it, don't contradict individual liberty, they exist alongside of it.
Notice how he parses liberty as a commodity that societies choose to limit in varying degrees with the consent of those societies

Not a peep about the individual, just the collective

I think I can name most of the books where he’s done all that reading


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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by Chizzang »

AZGrizFan wrote:
Not in a liberal's mind. :dunce: :dunce:
Says the guy hallucinating about being a billionaire...

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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by CAA Flagship »

:shock: :lol:
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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by BDKJMU »

..peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard..
..But you have to go home now. We have to have peace…
..I know how you feel, but go home, and go home in peace.
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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by Chizzang »

css75 wrote:Liberty is an inalienable right, endowed by our creator.
Well whoever it is you think that "created" you... sucks at liberty
2/3 of the world is not experiencing Liberty

#Omnipotentprobablynot
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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by AZGrizFan »

Chizzang wrote:
css75 wrote:Liberty is an inalienable right, endowed by our creator.
Well whoever it is you think that "created" you... sucks at liberty
2/3 of the world is not experiencing Liberty

#Omnipotentprobablynot
Having it be a right and actually experiencing it are two entirely different things.
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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by Col Hogan »

Chizzang wrote:
css75 wrote:Liberty is an inalienable right, endowed by our creator.
Well whoever it is you think that "created" you... sucks at liberty
2/3 of the world is not experiencing Liberty

#Omnipotentprobablynot
Probably because the government of 2/3 of the world don’t respect the right...
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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by css75 »

Chizzang wrote:
css75 wrote:Liberty is an inalienable right, endowed by our creator.
Well whoever it is you think that "created" you... sucks at liberty
2/3 of the world is not experiencing Liberty

#Omnipotentprobablynot
Are you really that dense? God gave the right, evil people take it away.


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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by Chizzang »

css75 wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
Well whoever it is you think that "created" you... sucks at liberty
2/3 of the world is not experiencing Liberty

#Omnipotentprobablynot
Are you really that dense? God gave the right, evil people take it away.
I thought the Christian God was omnipotent..?

He must be super busy killing 25,000 children every day while making Donald Trump President
while declining to give man his liberty

:geek:

and I didn't bring up god in this conversation, you did
BTW: It's your christian leaders that say Donald Trump was put here by God

so obviously he's omnipotent
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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by houndawg »

CID1990 wrote:It is unfortunate

People are going to die in Hong Kong before this mess is over.

But China won't be able to whitewash it the way they did Tienanmen Square... too many iPhones

I'll bet Hong Kongers don't think of big bad Britain when they talk about "colonialism" now

It is also inconvenient - every time China starts to look a bit like a sympathetic character to the "socialism works some places" crowd... China goes and shows us the actual nuts and bolts of how it works

These people just need to get with the program... it is for the greater good
They're sure giving us a schooling on capitalism :lol:
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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by houndawg »

SDHornet wrote:
CID1990 wrote:It is unfortunate

People are going to die in Hong Kong before this mess is over.

But China won't be able to whitewash it the way they did Tienanmen Square... too many iPhones

I'll bet Hong Kongers don't think of big bad Britain when they talk about "colonialism" now

It is also inconvenient - every time China starts to look a bit like a sympathetic character to the "socialism works some places" crowd... China goes and shows us the actual nuts and bolts of how it works

These people just need to get with the program... it is for the greater good
:nod:

HK is fucked...

...and it's not our problem. :coffee:
You don't think we should sell them weapons to aid their struggle for democracy?
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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by houndawg »

css75 wrote:Now what would the US do if the Chinese tried this with Taiwan?


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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by houndawg »

css75 wrote:Liberty is an inalienable right, endowed by our creator.


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:rofl: :silly:
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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by kalm »

css75 wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
Well whoever it is you think that "created" you... sucks at liberty
2/3 of the world is not experiencing Liberty

#Omnipotentprobablynot
Are you really that dense? God gave the right, evil people take it away.


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What about all men being created equal?
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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by kalm »

CID1990 wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
You write as though you don't really know what liberty means. It's not just, or even, an idea of being able to and actually wanting to live like a hermit, out in the woods, devoid of any human contact or interaction. That can be liberty, sure, but it's just an extreme thing. Liberty is simply being able to choose what you want to do, being able to make your own decisions, and leading your life the way you choose to do it. Shared security and social acceptance, to the point you want it, don't contradict individual liberty, they exist alongside of it.
Notice how he parses liberty as a commodity that societies choose to limit in varying degrees with the consent of those societies

Not a peep about the individual, just the collective

I think I can name most of the books where he’s done all that reading


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And not a peep from you detractors about the benefits of the collective. You do realize that collective can be a neutral term. It doesn't always have to represent the evil, liberty crushing examples of Marx, kumbaya, Bernie, or the Borg. People can choose to work together out of mutual benefit or even (gasp), harmony.
Imagine where mankind and human advancement would be without cooperation. Of course cooperation is just code for democracy both of which are also dirty words.

I love this conversation. :nod:
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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by CAA Flagship »

kalm wrote:
css75 wrote:
Are you really that dense? God gave the right, evil people take it away.


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What about all men being created equal?
Still under review.

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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by CAA Flagship »

kalm wrote: People can choose to work together out of mutual benefit or even (gasp), harmony.
Life at the kalmune?
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Re: Hong Kong demonstrations

Post by kalm »

CAA Flagship wrote:
kalm wrote: People can choose to work together out of mutual benefit or even (gasp), harmony.
Life at the kalmune?
Nah...I've run a business for too long. I'm thoroughly jaded and tired of other people's ideas. It's funny though, after sitting in pain in the ass meetings and on committees, I'll sometimes joke that dictatorships have their upside which tends to be get me sideways glances.
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