Coronavirus COVID-19

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by UNI88 »

Gil Dobie wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:42 am
Don't know if this is true, but it was seen on the internet

Image
SG and Kalm were just debating this. From what I can tell the stats don't differentiate between pre-existing comorbidities and comorbidities that were brought on by COVID. That's a huge hole in the argument. If the comorbidity that caused their death was brought on by COVID then COVID essentially caused their death.

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by 89Hen »

Gil Dobie wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:42 am
Don't know if this is true, but it was seen on the internet
It's not, BUT the answer does probably lie between the 6% and 100% given the way insurance and our health system works.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by Winterborn »

UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:22 pm
Gil Dobie wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:42 am
Don't know if this is true, but it was seen on the internet

Image
SG and Kalm were just debating this. From what I can tell the stats don't differentiate between pre-existing comorbidities and comorbidities that were brought on by COVID. That's a huge hole in the argument. If the comorbidity that caused their death was brought on by COVID then COVID essentially caused their death.
This is getting in medical terminology/coding that I am not that great at parsing, but if you had a condition (along with its comorbidites) and were expected to only live out the week, but then caught COVID and died two days early, wouldn't the cause of death be the original condition, as that is what was killing them in the first place and not COVID? COVID just sped up the process a couple of days.

Not the best example I know, just using it for illustration purposes.
In medicine, comorbidity is the presence of one or more additional conditions often co-occurring (that is, concomitant or concurrent with) with a primary condition. Comorbidity describes the effect of all other conditions an individual patient might have other than the primary condition of interest, and can be physiological or psychological. In the context of mental health, comorbidity often refers to disorders that are often coexistent with each other, such as depression and anxiety disorders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comorbidity
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by UNI88 »

Winterborn wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:09 pm
UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:22 pm

SG and Kalm were just debating this. From what I can tell the stats don't differentiate between pre-existing comorbidities and comorbidities that were brought on by COVID. That's a huge hole in the argument. If the comorbidity that caused their death was brought on by COVID then COVID essentially caused their death.
This is getting in medical terminology/coding that I am not that great at parsing, but if you had a condition (along with its comorbidites) and were expected to only live out the week, but then caught COVID and died two days early, wouldn't the cause of death be the original condition, as that is what was killing them in the first place and not COVID? COVID just sped up the process a couple of days.

Not the best example I know, just using it for illustration purposes.
In medicine, comorbidity is the presence of one or more additional conditions often co-occurring (that is, concomitant or concurrent with) with a primary condition. Comorbidity describes the effect of all other conditions an individual patient might have other than the primary condition of interest, and can be physiological or psychological. In the context of mental health, comorbidity often refers to disorders that are often coexistent with each other, such as depression and anxiety disorders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comorbidity
I'm also not an expert but I would say yes.

Where I think the 6% is misleading at best is that some of those 94% are relatively healthy, get COVID and then develop other conditions (respiratory, heart, etc.). If someone dies of a heart condition that was brought on by COVID, isn't it appropriate to classify the death as a COVID death?

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by Winterborn »

UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:18 pm
Winterborn wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:09 pm


This is getting in medical terminology/coding that I am not that great at parsing, but if you had a condition (along with its comorbidites) and were expected to only live out the week, but then caught COVID and died two days early, wouldn't the cause of death be the original condition, as that is what was killing them in the first place and not COVID? COVID just sped up the process a couple of days.

Not the best example I know, just using it for illustration purposes.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comorbidity
I'm also not an expert but I would say yes.

Where I think the 6% is misleading at best is that some of those 94% are relatively healthy, get COVID and then develop other conditions (respiratory, heart, etc.). If someone dies of a heart condition that was brought on by COVID, isn't it appropriate to classify the death as a COVID death?
If COVID was the major cause (or co-cause) in the person dying, then it should be IMHO. At least that is how I look at it from an engineering perspective.

89 said it best, in that the real answer is somewhere in-between due to how our insurance/health system works. And odds are we will not know until long after this has blown over and not politicized as much. By then it will just be a footnote in the history books.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by UNI88 »

Winterborn wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:25 pm
UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:18 pm

I'm also not an expert but I would say yes.

Where I think the 6% is misleading at best is that some of those 94% are relatively healthy, get COVID and then develop other conditions (respiratory, heart, etc.). If someone dies of a heart condition that was brought on by COVID, isn't it appropriate to classify the death as a COVID death?
If COVID was the major cause (or co-cause) in the person dying, then it should be IMHO. At least that is how I look at it from an engineering perspective.

89 said it best, in that the real answer is somewhere in-between due to how our insurance/health system works. And odds are we will not know until long after this has blown over and not politicized as much. By then it will just be a footnote in the history books.
:nod:

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by Skjellyfetti »

89Hen wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:39 pm
Meanwhile in Australia...

https://au.news.yahoo.com/pregnant-covi ... 57423.html
A 28-year-old pregnant Victorian woman has been arrested after she allegedly organised a protest event for Saturday that breaches the government’s coronavirus restrictions.

Zoe Buhler uploaded a live Facebook video on Wednesday afternoon as Victoria police entered her home in Miners Rest, north of Ballarat, with an arrest warrant.

The mum, with the Facebook name Zoe Lee, can be seen in her pyjamas with her two children and partner watching on. Police explain to Ms Buhler she is being placed under arrest for incitement and she is handcuffed.
I think my favorite part is that the husband doesn't seem that concerned until they start to take his phone. :rofl:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by JohnStOnge »

Gil Dobie wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:42 am
Don't know if this is true, but it was seen on the internet

Image
This guy does a good job of debunking the point that person is trying to make:



I've read the CDC guidance on completing death certificates and what he is saying is accurate. This kind of crap has got to stop. The sad thing is that it is the conservative side that keeps putting out this kind of nonsense.

You really need to listen to this guy all the way through. Very fair. Very balanced. But also very clearly illustrates the problem we have with denial right now.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by CID1990 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:42 am
Don't know if this is true, but it was seen on the internet

Image
This guy does a good job of debunking the point that person is trying to make:



I've read the CDC guidance on completing death certificates and what he is saying is accurate. This kind of crap has got to stop. The sad thing is that it is the conservative side that keeps putting out this kind of nonsense.

You really need to listen to this guy all the way through. Very fair. Very balanced. But also very clearly illustrates the problem we have with denial right now.
It doesn’t have to stop.

People just need to stop getting their info from tweeter and faceplants

And CNN, and FOX, and NBC, and CBS

(MSNBC doesn’t count ... they are in the same class as National Enquierer)
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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Have to see what the rebuttals are to this, but if the science/math stands, it will show how the media politicized a possible cheap, effective drug for early treatment of COVID.

77% lower death rate for those treated with HCQ.

I have no clue as to the veracity if the study. Just posting because it is COVID related.

https://hcqtrial.com/
Many countries either adopted or declined early treatment with HCQ, effectively forming a large trial with 1.8 billion people in the treatment group and 663 million in the control group. As of September 1, 2020, an average of 53.7 per million in the treatment group have died, and 459.3 per million in the control group, relative risk 0.117. After adjustments, treatment and control deaths become 111.8 per million and 678.7 per million, relative risk 0.16. The probability of an equal or lower relative risk occurring from random group assignments is 0.007. Accounting for predicted changes in spread, we estimate a relative risk of 0.23. The treatment group has a 77.1% lower death rate. Confounding factors affect this estimate. We examined diabetes, obesity, hypertension, life expectancy, population density, urbanization, testing level, and intervention level, which do not account for the effect observed.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by HI54UNI »

Renters in U.S. cannot be evicted through the end of the year due to coronavirus, CDC order states

Unpublished order provides declaration for renters to sign stating they are unable to pay rent, have sought government assistance

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention implemented a temporary eviction moratorium through the end of the year, protecting U.S. renters from losing their homes during the COVID-19 pandemic, the Trump administration announced Tuesday.

The CDC’s moratorium will apply to all rental units nationwide until Dec. 31 and goes into effect immediately, senior administration officials said of an unpublished CDC agency order. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin told a U.S. House of Representatives panel Tuesday that the moratorium would cover around 40 million renters.


https://www.marketwatch.com/story/cdc-i ... 2020-09-01

How in the world is this legal?
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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HI54UNI wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:56 am
Renters in U.S. cannot be evicted through the end of the year due to coronavirus, CDC order states

Unpublished order provides declaration for renters to sign stating they are unable to pay rent, have sought government assistance

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention implemented a temporary eviction moratorium through the end of the year, protecting U.S. renters from losing their homes during the COVID-19 pandemic, the Trump administration announced Tuesday.

The CDC’s moratorium will apply to all rental units nationwide until Dec. 31 and goes into effect immediately, senior administration officials said of an unpublished CDC agency order. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin told a U.S. House of Representatives panel Tuesday that the moratorium would cover around 40 million renters.


https://www.marketwatch.com/story/cdc-i ... 2020-09-01

How in the world is this legal?
This is just setting the stage for another bank bailout.

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by UNI88 »

HI54UNI wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:56 am
Renters in U.S. cannot be evicted through the end of the year due to coronavirus, CDC order states

Unpublished order provides declaration for renters to sign stating they are unable to pay rent, have sought government assistance

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention implemented a temporary eviction moratorium through the end of the year, protecting U.S. renters from losing their homes during the COVID-19 pandemic, the Trump administration announced Tuesday.

The CDC’s moratorium will apply to all rental units nationwide until Dec. 31 and goes into effect immediately, senior administration officials said of an unpublished CDC agency order. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin told a U.S. House of Representatives panel Tuesday that the moratorium would cover around 40 million renters.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/cdc-i ... 2020-09-01

How in the world is this legal?
What happens to the many landlords who depend on their rental income to pay their mortgages and buy food?

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:19 am
HI54UNI wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:56 am
Renters in U.S. cannot be evicted through the end of the year due to coronavirus, CDC order states

Unpublished order provides declaration for renters to sign stating they are unable to pay rent, have sought government assistance

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention implemented a temporary eviction moratorium through the end of the year, protecting U.S. renters from losing their homes during the COVID-19 pandemic, the Trump administration announced Tuesday.

The CDC’s moratorium will apply to all rental units nationwide until Dec. 31 and goes into effect immediately, senior administration officials said of an unpublished CDC agency order. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin told a U.S. House of Representatives panel Tuesday that the moratorium would cover around 40 million renters.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/cdc-i ... 2020-09-01

How in the world is this legal?
What happens to the many landlords who depend on their rental income to pay their mortgages and buy food?
Deficits don’t matter. They should be bailed out too.

Besides, who are they going to rent to?
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by Ibanez »

SeattleGriz wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:59 am
Have to see what the rebuttals are to this, but if the science/math stands, it will show how the media politicized a possible cheap, effective drug for early treatment of COVID.

77% lower death rate for those treated with HCQ.

I have no clue as to the veracity if the study. Just posting because it is COVID related.

https://hcqtrial.com/
Many countries either adopted or declined early treatment with HCQ, effectively forming a large trial with 1.8 billion people in the treatment group and 663 million in the control group. As of September 1, 2020, an average of 53.7 per million in the treatment group have died, and 459.3 per million in the control group, relative risk 0.117. After adjustments, treatment and control deaths become 111.8 per million and 678.7 per million, relative risk 0.16. The probability of an equal or lower relative risk occurring from random group assignments is 0.007. Accounting for predicted changes in spread, we estimate a relative risk of 0.23. The treatment group has a 77.1% lower death rate. Confounding factors affect this estimate. We examined diabetes, obesity, hypertension, life expectancy, population density, urbanization, testing level, and intervention level, which do not account for the effect observed.
I hope it's true. The Demon Sperm Doctor isn't the best advocate for a drug
Spoiler: show
2 years ago when my father was diagnosed with lung cancer, he was offered a drug and was told 1/4 of users died. It was still fairly new, FDA approved and my father took it. After no improvement, my parents finally got a second opinion. We found out the results were skewed and that it was more like almost 50% of users were dead within a year, 75% within 2 years. A year after beginning treatment, he was taken off of it b/c the drug had done more damage than the cancer. He was dead 7 months later. The drug was taken off the market late last year. I don't know why I relayed this story. Something about HCQ and the misinformation surrounding it made me think about dad.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by SeattleGriz »

kalm wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:41 am
Some potential good news...

Cool tech story and suggests how Covid takes over the body. The bradykinin hypotheses.

If you haven’t already been taking Vitamin D, this confirms that we should all be loading up. Even if you’re getting sunlight.

https://medium.com/m/global-identity?re ... cb8eba9d63
Wanted to give this a day before replying, so I didn't derail your link.

I'm not sure what to think about Vitamin D. It's obviously needed, but I don't think we really know how much is needed.

I base this on my experience as a medical lab rep. We used to sponsor speakers who would swear up and down that everyone was deficient, even those living in Arizona.

Always thought the push for everyone being deficient coincided with the testing being expanded to 4 times per year for reimbursement. I realize you only mentioned 20%.

I was always left with three thoughts:
1) We are deficient due to our lack of being outside as much as we need and in relation to past years.
2) Something is causing our bodies to "gobble up" the Vitamin D and cause deficiencies.
3) Expanded payment to 4 Vitamin D tests ($235 each) a year drove the belief we were deficient.

I'm sure it's a combination of 1&3 because I've never been able to figure out what, other than stress, is gobbling up our internal Vit D.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by UNI88 »

One-third of COVID-19 positive Big Ten athletes have myocarditis, Penn State athletic doctor says
Around one-third of Big Ten athletes who tested positive for COVID-19 appear to have myocarditis, according to Penn State’s director of athletic medicine.

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by SeattleGriz »

UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:35 pm
Winterborn wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:25 pm


If COVID was the major cause (or co-cause) in the person dying, then it should be IMHO. At least that is how I look at it from an engineering perspective.

89 said it best, in that the real answer is somewhere in-between due to how our insurance/health system works. And odds are we will not know until long after this has blown over and not politicized as much. By then it will just be a footnote in the history books.
:nod:
I don't think you guys got an answer.

You generally have a primary diagnosis and then the other diagnoses. Obviously if COVID is the primary, it is considered the factor that killed someone. I'm talking from billing experience, but assume death certificates work the same way.

That's a nice little "medical bill be gone" trick we used to do in the lab.

Doctor's office would call us and say the patient called them and was pissed they got a bill from our laboratory. So, then we would ask the doctor if they would like to make a different code the primary or submit a new code.

Poof! Medical bill was now 100% covered by insurance.

By the way, we were not allowed to write any bills off as a favor, for that was considered inducement to get the doctor to send us more patients.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by CID1990 »

UNI88 wrote:One-third of COVID-19 positive Big Ten athletes have myocarditis, Penn State athletic doctor says
Around one-third of Big Ten athletes who tested positive for COVID-19 appear to have myocarditis, according to Penn State’s director of athletic medicine.
Pfft

Its just the flu


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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by GannonFan »

CID1990 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:38 am
Pfft

Its just the flu


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Myocarditis happens after viral infections. Having it doesn't reveal very much, the severity of the myocarditis would be more useful. Lots of cases of myocarditis goes away in very short time with no long term effects. Very severe cases can be debilitating. Just saying they have myocarditis isn't very revealing.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by HI54UNI »

UNI88 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:28 am
One-third of COVID-19 positive Big Ten athletes have myocarditis, Penn State athletic doctor says
Around one-third of Big Ten athletes who tested positive for COVID-19 appear to have myocarditis, according to Penn State’s director of athletic medicine.
All my posts are satire.

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by GannonFan »

HI54UNI wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:01 pm
So the 30%-35% number was just made up then, spoken off the cuff? Did they say what the actual number is?

Nevermind, I found it, closer to 15%, or half of what the doctor had initially quoted.

https://www.islandpacket.com/sports/col ... 84545.html
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by UNI88 »

GannonFan wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:24 am
HI54UNI wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:01 pm
So the 30%-35% number was just made up then, spoken off the cuff? Did they say what the actual number is?

Nevermind, I found it, closer to 15%, or half of what the doctor had initially quoted.

https://www.islandpacket.com/sports/col ... 84545.html
Thank you both for doing the reporters' jobs for them.

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by SDHornet »

GannonFan wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:24 am
HI54UNI wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:01 pm

So the 30%-35% number was just made up then, spoken off the cuff? Did they say what the actual number is?

Nevermind, I found it, closer to 15%, or half of what the doctor had initially quoted.

https://www.islandpacket.com/sports/col ... 84545.html
I'm guessing that stat was rushed by the B10 as it is fighting tooth and nail against playing football. Not surprised it's more voodoo math used to justify shutdowns/lockdowns.

Open everything back up. :coffee:

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by GannonFan »

SDHornet wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:56 am
GannonFan wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:24 am


So the 30%-35% number was just made up then, spoken off the cuff? Did they say what the actual number is?

Nevermind, I found it, closer to 15%, or half of what the doctor had initially quoted.

https://www.islandpacket.com/sports/col ... 84545.html
I'm guessing that stat was rushed by the B10 as it is fighting tooth and nail against playing football. Not surprised it's more voodoo math used to justify shutdowns/lockdowns.

Open everything back up. :coffee:
I think the Big 10 is actually trying to find a way to get back into the college football season (belief is they thought the other P5's would go along with them, but are now worried that they didn't and the Big 10 only has the Pac 12 for company), but are struggling on how not to make it look like Trump talked them into it. As with most things Trump, the moment he says one thing, there's an entrenched opposition that will pick the other side, no matter what the other side is.
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