Coronavirus COVID-19

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by 89Hen »

JohnStOnge wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:07 pm
89Hen wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:59 pm

See. You complain about misleading facts and then post hyperbole. Shame on you John.
Not hyperbole at all. It's the truth. And your comment reflects a problem with our culture right now. For some reason there are many people who want to deny the truth about the severity of the situation.

In fact, the Worldometers death total understates the true total because it is a count and not all COVID-19 related deaths have been counted. As of now, the CDC estimates that there have actually been about 767,000 COVID-19 related deaths in the United States.

I just don't know why people want to lie to themselves about this thing. There is no benefit in that.
So you're willing to go on record that EVERY SINGLE PERSON that died "from Covid" on Worldometers, would still be alive today if it weren't for Covid?
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by JohnStOnge »

89Hen wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:09 pm
JohnStOnge wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:07 pm

Not hyperbole at all. It's the truth. And your comment reflects a problem with our culture right now. For some reason there are many people who want to deny the truth about the severity of the situation.

In fact, the Worldometers death total understates the true total because it is a count and not all COVID-19 related deaths have been counted. As of now, the CDC estimates that there have actually been about 767,000 COVID-19 related deaths in the United States.

I just don't know why people want to lie to themselves about this thing. There is no benefit in that.
So you're willing to go on record that EVERY SINGLE PERSON that died "from Covid" on Worldometers, would still be alive today if it weren't for Covid?
No, that's not what I"m saying. I'm saying that almost all of them would not have died when they did. If the number listed is about 690,000 about that many would not have died when they did. If you just randomly select 690,000 people some of them are going to die at some point over the next year from various causes.

Just look at the video I posted. I think that guy does a great job of explaining it. I have read the CDC instructions on filling out death certificates with respect to COVID-19 and I think what he says in that video is accurate.

There really is this weird thing where, from the very beginning of this thing, many people have had this weird desire to just not believe the disease is as serious in terms of overall impact on the population as well as our health care systems as it is. I just don't get why people want to do that.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by UNI88 »

JohnStOnge wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:19 pm
89Hen wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:09 pm So you're willing to go on record that EVERY SINGLE PERSON that died "from Covid" on Worldometers, would still be alive today if it weren't for Covid?
No, that's not what I"m saying. I'm saying that almost all of them would not have died when they did. If the number listed is about 690,000 about that many would not have died when they did. If you just randomly select 690,000 people some of them are going to die at some point over the next year from various causes.

Just look at the video I posted. I think that guy does a great job of explaining it. I have read the CDC instructions on filling out death certificates with respect to COVID-19 and I think what he says in that video is accurate.

There really is this weird thing where, from the very beginning of this thing, many people have had this weird desire to just not believe the disease is as serious in terms of overall impact on the population as well as our health care systems as it is. I just don't get why people want to do that.
John there is also this this weird thing where, from the very beginning of this thing, many people have had this weird desire to just believe the disease is way more serious in terms of overall impact on the population. COVID is dangerous but it isn't the Black Plague that some want to make it out to be.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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UNI88 wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:27 pm
JohnStOnge wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:19 pm

No, that's not what I"m saying. I'm saying that almost all of them would not have died when they did. If the number listed is about 690,000 about that many would not have died when they did. If you just randomly select 690,000 people some of them are going to die at some point over the next year from various causes.

Just look at the video I posted. I think that guy does a great job of explaining it. I have read the CDC instructions on filling out death certificates with respect to COVID-19 and I think what he says in that video is accurate.

There really is this weird thing where, from the very beginning of this thing, many people have had this weird desire to just not believe the disease is as serious in terms of overall impact on the population as well as our health care systems as it is. I just don't get why people want to do that.

John there is also this this weird thing where, from the very beginning of this thing, many people have had this weird desire to just believe the disease is way more serious in terms of overall impact on the population. COVID is dangerous but it isn't the Black Plague that some want to make it out to be.
But if you don’t make it more serious than it really is, how will the government ever get the people to conform and give up their freedoms?
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by 89Hen »

JohnStOnge wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:19 pm
89Hen wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:09 pm

So you're willing to go on record that EVERY SINGLE PERSON that died "from Covid" on Worldometers, would still be alive today if it weren't for Covid?
No, that's not what I"m saying. I'm saying that almost all of them would not have died when they did. If the number listed is about 690,000 about that many would not have died when they did. If you just randomly select 690,000 people some of them are going to die at some point over the next year from various causes.

Just look at the video I posted. I think that guy does a great job of explaining it. I have read the CDC instructions on filling out death certificates with respect to COVID-19 and I think what he says in that video is accurate.

There really is this weird thing where, from the very beginning of this thing, many people have had this weird desire to just not believe the disease is as serious in terms of overall impact on the population as well as our health care systems as it is. I just don't get why people want to do that.
It's not as serious as some would have you believe. 690k is a huge number, but 2,854,838 people die every year in the US regardless of Covid. There are folks who are making this out to be a zombie movie where only a couple thousand are left alive. You DID, very specifically, say that every person that died from Covid would be alive today.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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JohnStOnge wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:57 pm
SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:38 pm

Not sure if you noticed the stats I posted showing 6% of deaths can be attributed solely to Covid. All others had contributing factors.
I cannot believe that piece of misleading information is still going around. I ask you to watch/listen to the video below to see what's going on explained. Again: I can't believe people are still using that "6%" thing. A for instance: If the death certificate lists COVID-19 but also lists "Adult Respiratory Distress Syndrome," that's not going to be in that 6%. But COVID-19 CAUSES Adult Respiratory Distress Syndrome.

Bottom line is that when you see that there are (according to WorldoMeters) there have been 689,971 deaths related to COVID-19, about 689,971 people died when they otherwise would not have if they had not gotten COVID-19. This thing of saying that there are REALLY only about 689,971 x 6% = 41,398 COVID-19 deaths because of that thing where only 6% of death certificates had only COVID-19 listed reflects a total misunderstanding of what the death certificate data mean.

Listen to the guy:

The stats were from the CDC bro. I find nothing wrong with 6% of the deaths coming SOLELY from COVID and the other 94% coming from COVID AND some other complication.

That's why the stats also tell you the average death associated with the 94% of COVID deaths have 2.9 comorbidities. America is in sad shape.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:27 pm
JohnStOnge wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:19 pm

No, that's not what I"m saying. I'm saying that almost all of them would not have died when they did. If the number listed is about 690,000 about that many would not have died when they did. If you just randomly select 690,000 people some of them are going to die at some point over the next year from various causes.

Just look at the video I posted. I think that guy does a great job of explaining it. I have read the CDC instructions on filling out death certificates with respect to COVID-19 and I think what he says in that video is accurate.

There really is this weird thing where, from the very beginning of this thing, many people have had this weird desire to just not believe the disease is as serious in terms of overall impact on the population as well as our health care systems as it is. I just don't get why people want to do that.
John there is also this this weird thing where, from the very beginning of this thing, many people have had this weird desire to just believe the disease is way more serious in terms of overall impact on the population. COVID is dangerous but it isn't the Black Plague that some want to make it out to be.
Which still begs the question how many would have died without interventions.

I’m just glad we’ve moved past the “it’s just the flu” stage. Baby steps! :clap:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by JohnStOnge »

89Hen wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:46 pm You DID, very specifically, say that every person that died from Covid would be alive today.
I can see that I was not careful enough in how I worded it. This is how I worded it:
Bottom line is that when you see that there are (according to WorldoMeters) there have been 689,971 deaths related to COVID-19, about 689,971 people died when they otherwise would not have if they had not gotten COVID-19.
What I was saying is that people would not have died when they did. If I'd have written "...died when they did..." instead of "...died when they otherwise would not have..." it would be less likely to be interpreted the way you interpreted it. But when I wrote "...died when they otherwise would not have..." I meant they died at a time at which they would not have died had they not gotten COVID-19.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:02 pm
UNI88 wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:27 pm
John there is also this this weird thing where, from the very beginning of this thing, many people have had this weird desire to just believe the disease is way more serious in terms of overall impact on the population. COVID is dangerous but it isn't the Black Plague that some want to make it out to be.
Which still begs the question how many would have died without interventions.

I’m just glad we’ve moved past the “it’s just the flu” stage. Baby steps! :clap:
Yes it does. It also begs the question, how many died because of the interventions. There are people who aren't taking it seriously enough and there are others who are taking it too seriously. The prudent course is somewhere in between.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by JohnStOnge »

SeattleGriz wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:45 pm
JohnStOnge wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:57 pm

I cannot believe that piece of misleading information is still going around. I ask you to watch/listen to the video below to see what's going on explained. Again: I can't believe people are still using that "6%" thing. A for instance: If the death certificate lists COVID-19 but also lists "Adult Respiratory Distress Syndrome," that's not going to be in that 6%. But COVID-19 CAUSES Adult Respiratory Distress Syndrome.

Bottom line is that when you see that there are (according to WorldoMeters) there have been 689,971 deaths related to COVID-19, about 689,971 people died when they otherwise would not have if they had not gotten COVID-19. This thing of saying that there are REALLY only about 689,971 x 6% = 41,398 COVID-19 deaths because of that thing where only 6% of death certificates had only COVID-19 listed reflects a total misunderstanding of what the death certificate data mean.

Listen to the guy:

The stats were from the CDC bro. I find nothing wrong with 6% of the deaths coming SOLELY from COVID and the other 94% coming from COVID AND some other complication.

That's why the stats also tell you the average death associated with the 94% of COVID deaths have 2.9 comorbidities. America is in sad shape.
Yes the stats are from the CDC, but they have been widely misinterpreted. For example: Somebody gets COVID-19 then they die of pneumonia. But the COVID-19 caused the pneumonia. That's not in that 6%, but it is legitimately counted as a COVID-19 death.

Another example: Someone is obese. They get COVID-19 and die. Obesity is listed on the death certificate as a contributing factor. That death is not in the 6%. But COVID-19 killed that person. Obesity made the person more vulnerable. But COVID-19 killed them.

If someone thinks that 6% figure is evidence that the death toll is over-stated, they are misinterpreting the data.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by JohnStOnge »

UNI88 wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:23 pm
kalm wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:02 pm

Which still begs the question how many would have died without interventions.

I’m just glad we’ve moved past the “it’s just the flu” stage. Baby steps! :clap:
Yes it does. It also begs the question, how many died because of the interventions. There are people who aren't taking it seriously enough and there are others who are taking it too seriously. The prudent course is somewhere in between.
I think it likely that there were more COVID-19 deaths than there were deaths due to interventions. I think that the "excess deaths" numbers suggest that. Look at the "Excess mortality using raw death counts" section of the piece at "https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid" as an example. A quote:
The raw death count helps give us a sense of scale: for example, the US suffered roughly 360,000 more deaths than the five-year average between 26 January and 3 October 2020, compared to 209,000 confirmed COVID-19 deaths during that period.
So confirmed COVID-19 deaths accounted for 58% of the excess deaths. But it's pretty much agreed that confirmed COVID-19 deaths understate the actual number of COVID-19 deaths. CDC estimates that 1 in 1.3 COVID-19 deaths are reported. That would bring the 209,000 number to 217,700. Then COVID-19 deaths would account for 75% of the excess deaths.

Another thing to consider is the high likelihood that we would have had a lot more COVID-19 deaths without the interventions. That's where the real balance would be struck. How many MORE COVID-19 deaths would we have had without the interventions vs. how many deaths we had because of the interventions.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by kalm »

JohnStOnge wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:47 pm
UNI88 wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:23 pm

Yes it does. It also begs the question, how many died because of the interventions. There are people who aren't taking it seriously enough and there are others who are taking it too seriously. The prudent course is somewhere in between.
I think it likely that there were more COVID-19 deaths than there were deaths due to interventions. I think that the "excess deaths" numbers suggest that. Look at the "Excess mortality using raw death counts" section of the piece at "https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid" as an example. A quote:
The raw death count helps give us a sense of scale: for example, the US suffered roughly 360,000 more deaths than the five-year average between 26 January and 3 October 2020, compared to 209,000 confirmed COVID-19 deaths during that period.
So confirmed COVID-19 deaths accounted for 58% of the excess deaths. But it's pretty much agreed that confirmed COVID-19 deaths understate the actual number of COVID-19 deaths. CDC estimates that 1 in 1.3 COVID-19 deaths are reported. That would bring the 209,000 number to 217,700. Then COVID-19 deaths would account for 75% of the excess deaths.

Another thing to consider is the high likelihood that we would have had a lot more COVID-19 deaths without the interventions. That's where the real balance would be struck. How many MORE COVID-19 deaths would we have had without the interventions vs. how many deaths we had because of the interventions.
Good point.

And/or how many lives were saved because people started getting in shape, taking more vitamins, etc.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by UNI88 »

JohnStOnge wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:47 pm
UNI88 wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:23 pm

Yes it does. It also begs the question, how many died because of the interventions. There are people who aren't taking it seriously enough and there are others who are taking it too seriously. The prudent course is somewhere in between.
I think it likely that there were more COVID-19 deaths than there were deaths due to interventions. I think that the "excess deaths" numbers suggest that. Look at the "Excess mortality using raw death counts" section of the piece at "https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid" as an example. A quote:
The raw death count helps give us a sense of scale: for example, the US suffered roughly 360,000 more deaths than the five-year average between 26 January and 3 October 2020, compared to 209,000 confirmed COVID-19 deaths during that period.
So confirmed COVID-19 deaths accounted for 58% of the excess deaths. But it's pretty much agreed that confirmed COVID-19 deaths understate the actual number of COVID-19 deaths. CDC estimates that 1 in 1.3 COVID-19 deaths are reported. That would bring the 209,000 number to 217,700. Then COVID-19 deaths would account for 75% of the excess deaths.

Another thing to consider is the high likelihood that we would have had a lot more COVID-19 deaths without the interventions. That's where the real balance would be struck. How many MORE COVID-19 deaths would we have had without the interventions vs. how many deaths we had because of the interventions.
I don't doubt that John but an absolute one or the other comparison and perspective is flawed. The question is at what point do the deaths resulting from the interventions surpass the lives saved by the interventions. That is where the interventions need to be stopped. Blind trust in a government so easily willing to lock everything down is just as foolish as thinking the virus is a hoax.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:51 pm
JohnStOnge wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:47 pm

I think it likely that there were more COVID-19 deaths than there were deaths due to interventions. I think that the "excess deaths" numbers suggest that. Look at the "Excess mortality using raw death counts" section of the piece at "https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid" as an example. A quote:



So confirmed COVID-19 deaths accounted for 58% of the excess deaths. But it's pretty much agreed that confirmed COVID-19 deaths understate the actual number of COVID-19 deaths. CDC estimates that 1 in 1.3 COVID-19 deaths are reported. That would bring the 209,000 number to 217,700. Then COVID-19 deaths would account for 75% of the excess deaths.

Another thing to consider is the high likelihood that we would have had a lot more COVID-19 deaths without the interventions. That's where the real balance would be struck. How many MORE COVID-19 deaths would we have had without the interventions vs. how many deaths we had because of the interventions.
I don't doubt that John but an absolute one or the other comparison and perspective is flawed. The question is at what point do the deaths resulting from the interventions surpass the lives saved by the interventions. That is where the interventions need to be stopped. Blind trust in a government so easily willing to lock everything down is just as foolish as thinking the virus is a hoax.
Indeed.

But I don’t think it’s been that easy for government to lock things down. Economic pressure, re-election pressure, lobbying pressure, etc.

It also doesn’t have to be permanent. Imagine this concern during war time. ‘We want to support the war effort and win…but fucking government!’
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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kalm wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:25 am
SDHornet wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:49 pm

:lol: :dunce:
It’s almost as if you enjoy pandemics and being wrong for years. :thumb:
You can wear a mask and social distance without the vax. If the vax lived up to its purpose, there should be no reason in continuing those protocols.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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HI54UNI wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:53 am The people telling you to be scared of Covid aren't scared of Covid.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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kalm wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:02 pm
UNI88 wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:27 pm

John there is also this this weird thing where, from the very beginning of this thing, many people have had this weird desire to just believe the disease is way more serious in terms of overall impact on the population. COVID is dangerous but it isn't the Black Plague that some want to make it out to be.
Which still begs the question how many would have died without interventions.

I’m just glad we’ve moved past the “it’s just the flu” stage. Baby steps! :clap:
And how many people died because of the interventions?
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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UNI88 wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:23 pm
kalm wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:02 pm

Which still begs the question how many would have died without interventions.

I’m just glad we’ve moved past the “it’s just the flu” stage. Baby steps! :clap:
Yes it does. It also begs the question, how many died because of the interventions. There are people who aren't taking it seriously enough and there are others who are taking it too seriously. The prudent course is somewhere in between.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by SDHornet »

So the powers that be spent all last summer encouraging folks to rise up against "racist" institutions and ideas, and now expect that won't carry over to these racist vax mandates? Oh boy. :popcorn:

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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JohnStOnge wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:19 pm
89Hen wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:09 pm

So you're willing to go on record that EVERY SINGLE PERSON that died "from Covid" on Worldometers, would still be alive today if it weren't for Covid?
No, that's not what I"m saying. I'm saying that almost all of them would not have died when they did. If the number listed is about 690,000 about that many would not have died when they did. If you just randomly select 690,000 people some of them are going to die at some point over the next year from various causes.

Just look at the video I posted. I think that guy does a great job of explaining it. I have read the CDC instructions on filling out death certificates with respect to COVID-19 and I think what he says in that video is accurate.

There really is this weird thing where, from the very beginning of this thing, many people have had this weird desire to just not believe the disease is as serious in terms of overall impact on the population as well as our health care systems as it is. I just don't get why people want to do that.
If you randomly select 690k people, the avg age isn’t going to be about 80. with a half doz co morbidities like it is with Covid deaths. Many of those people that died of Covid 2020-2021, still would have died 2020-2021 if there was no Covid.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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kalm wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:00 pm
UNI88 wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:51 pm

I don't doubt that John but an absolute one or the other comparison and perspective is flawed. The question is at what point do the deaths resulting from the interventions surpass the lives saved by the interventions. That is where the interventions need to be stopped. Blind trust in a government so easily willing to lock everything down is just as foolish as thinking the virus is a hoax.
Indeed.

But I don’t think it’s been that easy for government to lock things down. Economic pressure, re-election pressure, lobbying pressure, etc.

It also doesn’t have to be permanent. Imagine this concern during war time. ‘We want to support the war effort and win…but fucking government!’
The original estimates, prior to the mandates, were like over 2 million deaths. Because the mandates worked, people started to doubt how bad covid was. All but 1 of the people I know that died from covid, would probably be alive today. No major comorbidities, 1guy was 89, the rest were living normal lives.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by SeattleGriz »

JohnStOnge wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:28 pm
SeattleGriz wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:45 pm

The stats were from the CDC bro. I find nothing wrong with 6% of the deaths coming SOLELY from COVID and the other 94% coming from COVID AND some other complication.

That's why the stats also tell you the average death associated with the 94% of COVID deaths have 2.9 comorbidities. America is in sad shape.
Yes the stats are from the CDC, but they have been widely misinterpreted. For example: Somebody gets COVID-19 then they die of pneumonia. But the COVID-19 caused the pneumonia. That's not in that 6%, but it is legitimately counted as a COVID-19 death.

Another example: Someone is obese. They get COVID-19 and die. Obesity is listed on the death certificate as a contributing factor. That death is not in the 6%. But COVID-19 killed that person. Obesity made the person more vulnerable. But COVID-19 killed them.

If someone thinks that 6% figure is evidence that the death toll is over-stated, they are misinterpreting the data.
6% of the roughly 650k died solely because of COVID, and the other 94% had some comorbidity that was definitely assisted by COVID.

These are physicians you are debating. They fill out the death certificates, not us on the board.

And just to throw a little in the mix, you do know they changed the rules to make it easier to code a death as COVID.

https://www.bioethics.net/2020/05/cause ... -pandemic/
In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as “probable” or “presumed.”
The advice goes further, to say that if COVID-19 is involved, “it is likely the UCOD and thus, it should be reported on the lowest line used in Part I of the death certificate.”

What are the ramifications of such changes to death certificates?

Possibly inflated COVID-19 death counts
Perhaps (unfairly) increased federal aid to areas with inflated COVID-19 deaths
Under-reporting of other causes of death, and resulting lack of attention to appropriate health concerns
Loss of veracity in the persons responsible for completing the death certificates
Loss of trust in a system that has been manipulated
None of these is desirable, and all will cost us in the end.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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Example 1,001 of donk gov or donk big blue city mayor flouting their own mask mandate.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/san-fr ... fun-police

Another reason mask mandates are 100% BS and should be ignored.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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FDA declines to endorse widespread use of booster.
https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/News/video/f ... s-80094137
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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600,000+ flags and counting. Less than two years to get there. 1 out of every 500 Americans.
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