WWII vs. COVID - Big Government in Action

[kalm]

Man did we crank some shit out in the early 40’s.

This supports what I was implying about big government in the other thread.

Depends on the competency of leadership I guess.

Come at me libertariantards!

These efforts are worthy but scattershot. In his CNBC interview, Bill Ford said his company had no guidance from the White House, that it was figuring out how to help on its own. And so comes the second lesson from the war: Coordination is key, and should come from the federal government. Yet President Trump has left it to governors to acquire the supplies they need, saying of the federal government, “we’re not a shipping clerk.” That’s left states competing with each other—and with the feds—for supplies, New York governor Andrew Cuomo has said, driving up prices for everyone.

That perverse result is reminiscent of the early days of the Civil War, says Mark Wilson, a historian at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, when states sent their own delegations to the same manufacturers for blankets, rifles, and so on. “That was a very inefficient and chaotic and, I think, wrong-headed process,” he adds. Unfortunately for the Nazis, by the 20th century the US opted for organizing things from the top.................

The same sort of moves now could help increase production of ventilators and other tools, but Trump has mostly abstained from directing private sector efforts, and resisted using the 1950 Defense Production Act. “We're a country not based on nationalizing our business,” Trump said Sunday. “Call a person over in Venezuela, ask them how did nationalization of their businesses work out? Not too well."

https://www.wired.com/story/what-wwii-c ... ype=earned

[CAA Flagship]

This supports what I was implying about big government in the other thread.

Then why did you start another thread?

[kalm]

This supports what I was implying about big government in the other thread.

Then why did you start another thread?

Couldn’t find the original convo and this is a good philosophical side topic relating to leadership and governments role on its own.

[Pwns]

1941: Built the mightiest military in the world in no time.

2020: Can't produce respirators and pieces of cloth for health care workers to wear on their faces fast enough to save lives.

Maybe that Ross Perot guy was on to something.

[89Hen]

The first of these, sadly, isn’t much good now: Prepare well in advance. President Franklin D. Roosevelt got serious about stocking his armory (and drafting soldiers) more than a year before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, soon after France fell to Germany. By April 1941, the government had ordered $1.5 billion (that’s $26.4 billion today) worth of plane engines, tanks, machine guns, and other tools just from the auto industry—the country’s great manufacturing powerhouse. By the time Congress declared war eight months later, the auto industry was well into the process of realigning supply chains and preparing to arm America. “We weren’t ready to fight in December of 1941,” says Rob Citino, the senior historian at the National World War II Museum in New Orleans, citing early losses like the fall of the Philippines. “But we were more prepared to fight than we would’ve been had Roosevelt not gotten us started early.”

Ford workers are assembling plastic face shields for health care workers, aiming to make 100,000 a week. This year, by contrast, US officials dithered for weeks while the virus approached, and it’s now too late to prepare.

Yeah, no agenda in this piece.

[GannonFan]

Seriously, I just said on the other thread how my kryptonite is people bastardizing history, especially US history, and then using that bungled knowledge of history to wrongly push an agenda in the present, and then someone comes out with this crap? 89's right, the ramp up for production for WWII was long and gradual - heck, we were still having supply issues well into the war in '42 and '43. Sure, by the end of the war we were cranking out stuff that just swamped whatever anyone else could produce, but it took awhile to get the ship pointed in the right direction. These half-arsed posts from people cherry-picking history aside of course.

[Gil Dobie]

After 9/11, businesses all over the country devised disaster recovery plans. After COVID-19, I think there will be something similar in the healthcare system.

I have a suspicion that some states or medical facilities may be hoarding ventilators for when the peak COVID-19 numbers hit their state. Medtronic, who makes 15% of the countries ventilators, announced a few weeks back, they were doubling production.

Ventilator manufacturers Link

Medtronic announced in March 2020 it had increased ventilator production by more than 40%, putting it on track to more than double its supply capacity in response to the coronavirus pandemic.

[BDKJMU]

1941: Built the mightiest military in the world in no time.

2020: Can't produce respirators and pieces of cloth for health care workers to wear on their faces fast enough to save lives.

Maybe that Ross Perot guy was on to something.

1940-1944: built the mightiest military in the world (started ramping up summer 1940..Don't think were ahead of the Japs and Krauts until 1943. Soviets until at least 1944.

2020: In 2 months haven't run out of PPE yet, but there is a risk because 20 years ago started to allow most PPE to be produced overseas..Nevertheless, Like Flagship said, we will be overrun with ventilators by mid-summer.

[BDKJMU]

Seriously, I just said on the other thread how my kryptonite is people bastardizing history, especially US history, and then using that bungled knowledge of history to wrongly push an agenda in the present, and then someone comes out with this crap? 89's right, the ramp up for production for WWII was long and gradual - heck, we were still having supply issues well into the war in '42 and '43. Sure, by the end of the war we were cranking out stuff that just swamped whatever anyone else could produce, but it took awhile to get the ship pointed in the right direction. These half-arsed posts from people cherry-picking history aside of course.

Yep, lot of ignorance thinking we just flipped a switch with WWII production. Started ramping up in 1940. Increased that end pace end 1941. Didn't hit peak production until late 1944 or early 1945.

[dbackjon]

1941: Built the mightiest military in the world in no time.

2020: Can't produce respirators and pieces of cloth for health care workers to wear on their faces fast enough to save lives.

Maybe that Ross Perot guy was on to something.

1940-1944: built the mightiest military in the world (started ramping up summer 1940..Don't think were ahead of the Japs and Krauts until 1943. Soviets until at least 1944.

2020: In 2 months haven't run out of PPE yet, but there is a risk because 20 years ago started to allow most PPE to be produced overseas..Nevertheless, Like Flagship said, we will be overrun with ventilators by mid-summer.

Plenty of places have run out of PPE.

[BDKJMU]

1940-1944: built the mightiest military in the world (started ramping up summer 1940..Don't think were ahead of the Japs and Krauts until 1943. Soviets until at least 1944.

2020: In 2 months haven't run out of PPE yet, but there is a risk because 20 years ago started to allow most PPE to be produced overseas..Nevertheless, Like Flagship said, we will be overrun with ventilators by mid-summer.

Plenty of places have run out of PPE.

Where? The worst hit is NYC. Cuomo a day or 2 ago said NY is ok now, but could run out in a week.

[kalm]

Seriously, I just said on the other thread how my kryptonite is people bastardizing history, especially US history, and then using that bungled knowledge of history to wrongly push an agenda in the present, and then someone comes out with this crap? 89's right, the ramp up for production for WWII was long and gradual - heck, we were still having supply issues well into the war in '42 and '43. Sure, by the end of the war we were cranking out stuff that just swamped whatever anyone else could produce, but it took awhile to get the ship pointed in the right direction. These half-arsed posts from people cherry-picking history aside of course.

Yep, lot of ignorance thinking we just flipped a switch with WWII production.

Talk about cherry picking.

All of yours, Ganny’s, and 89’s complaints were acknowledged in the article. It’s suggesting we learn from the past. For better or worse we cannot rely upon executive leadership from the current administration. This creates some obstacles we didn’t have in 1941. It’s also a different enemy with a different marching speed. We will have to rely more on state leadership and private business leadership focusing on societal obligations to win.

JFC, I sometimes feel like Hicks or Ripley trying to calm down Pvt. Hudson with this ....

[89Hen]

Yep, lot of ignorance thinking we just flipped a switch with WWII production.

Talk about cherry picking.

All of yours, Ganny’s, and 89’s complaints were acknowledged in the article. It’s suggesting we learn from the past. For better or worse we cannot rely upon executive leadership from the current administration. This creates some obstacles we didn’t have in 1941. It’s also a different enemy with a different marching speed. We will have to rely more on state leadership and private business leadership focusing on societal obligations to win.

JFC, I sometimes feel like Hicks and Ripley trying to calm down Pvt. Hudson with this ....

Kalm goes on a fishing expedition and this happened.

[Ibanez]

Seriously, I just said on the other thread how my kryptonite is people bastardizing history, especially US history, and then using that bungled knowledge of history to wrongly push an agenda in the present, and then someone comes out with this crap? 89's right, the ramp up for production for WWII was long and gradual - heck, we were still having supply issues well into the war in '42 and '43. Sure, by the end of the war we were cranking out stuff that just swamped whatever anyone else could produce, but it took awhile to get the ship pointed in the right direction. These half-arsed posts from people cherry-picking history aside of course.

Not to mention that prior to the war, US military production was already humming along. We were producing guns, planes, tanks, and so much more for France and the UK. Materially, we weren't caught off guard in 1941.

[AZGrizFan]

After 9/11, businesses all over the country devised disaster recovery plans. After COVID-19, I think there will be something similar in the healthcare system.

I have a suspicion that some states or medical facilities may be hoarding ventilators for when the peak COVID-19 numbers hit their state. Medtronic, who makes 15% of the countries ventilators, announced a few weeks back, they were doubling production.

Ventilator manufacturers Link

Medtronic announced in March 2020 it had increased ventilator production by more than 40%, putting it on track to more than double its supply capacity in response to the coronavirus pandemic.

Absolutely CRIMINAL that any healthcare system, anywhere, didn’t already have a disaster plan in place for just such an event. It’s like SARS, H1N1, Bird Flu, Ebola, AIDS, etc., NEVER happened.....I mean seriously, WTF?

[kalm]

Talk about cherry picking.

All of yours, Ganny’s, and 89’s complaints were acknowledged in the article. It’s suggesting we learn from the past. For better or worse we cannot rely upon executive leadership from the current administration. This creates some obstacles we didn’t have in 1941. It’s also a different enemy with a different marching speed. We will have to rely more on state leadership and private business leadership focusing on societal obligations to win.

JFC, I sometimes feel like Hicks and Ripley trying to calm down Pvt. Hudson with this ....

Kalm goes on a fishing expedition and this happened.

It has potential for a great discussion. The three 20 + inch browns I’ve already landed and released on a size 16 elk hair caddis are just icing on the cake.

[kalm]

After 9/11, businesses all over the country devised disaster recovery plans. After COVID-19, I think there will be something similar in the healthcare system.

I have a suspicion that some states or medical facilities may be hoarding ventilators for when the peak COVID-19 numbers hit their state. Medtronic, who makes 15% of the countries ventilators, announced a few weeks back, they were doubling production.

Ventilator manufacturers Link

Medtronic announced in March 2020 it had increased ventilator production by more than 40%, putting it on track to more than double its supply capacity in response to the coronavirus pandemic.

Absolutely CRIMINAL that any healthcare system, anywhere, didn’t already have a disaster plan in place for just such an event. It’s like SARS, H1N1, Bird Flu, Ebola, AIDS, etc., NEVER happened.....I mean seriously, WTF?

And that goes back way before Trump. Medical equipment and supplies should be more a strategic industry and we’re going to discover how important agencies like the cdc and FEMA are.

[CAA Flagship]

1941: Built the mightiest military in the world in no time.

2020: Can't produce respirators and pieces of cloth for health care workers to wear on their faces fast enough to save lives.

Maybe that Ross Perot guy was on to something.

1940-1944: built the mightiest military in the world (started ramping up summer 1940..Don't think were ahead of the Japs and Krauts until 1943. Soviets until at least 1944.

2020: In 2 months haven't run out of PPE yet, but there is a risk because 20 years ago started to allow most PPE to be produced overseas..Nevertheless, Like Flagship said, we will be overrun with ventilators by mid-summer.

Watched a little of Cuomo's conference today. He was saying that after NY peaks, and before other states peak, he could see NY sending their excess ventilators to other states.
It will be interesting to see how that works out. I wonder who will be paying for the ventilators that move from one state to the other. Will the last state to use them be stuck with the ventilators and the bill? Will the first state to use them be stuck with the bill and be forced to sell them to the other states? Will the federal government purchase them and loan them out to wherever needed? Will states pay a rental fee to the Feds for them? Actually, I really don't care one way or the other, but it will be interesting to see how they are paid for and how willing the states are to work with each other based on that.

[Winterborn]

Talk about cherry picking.

All of yours, Ganny’s, and 89’s complaints were acknowledged in the article. It’s suggesting we learn from the past. For better or worse we cannot rely upon executive leadership from the current administration. This creates some obstacles we didn’t have in 1941. It’s also a different enemy with a different marching speed. We will have to rely more on state leadership and private business leadership focusing on societal obligations to win.

JFC, I sometimes feel like Hicks and Ripley trying to calm down Pvt. Hudson with this ....

Kalm goes on a fishing expedition and this happened.

I would happily pitch in for a fishing simulator so Kalm can get his fishing itch scratched instead of subjecting the rest of us to whatever he happens to be thinking of next.

[GannonFan]

1940-1944: built the mightiest military in the world (started ramping up summer 1940..Don't think were ahead of the Japs and Krauts until 1943. Soviets until at least 1944.

2020: In 2 months haven't run out of PPE yet, but there is a risk because 20 years ago started to allow most PPE to be produced overseas..Nevertheless, Like Flagship said, we will be overrun with ventilators by mid-summer.

Watched a little of Cuomo's conference today. He was saying that after NY peaks, and before other states peak, he could see NY sending their excess ventilators to other states.
It will be interesting to see how that works out. I wonder who will be paying for the ventilators that move from one state to the other. Will the last state to use them be stuck with the ventilators and the bill? Will the first state to use them be stuck with the bill and be forced to sell them to the other states? Will the federal government purchase them and loan them out to wherever needed? Will states pay a rental fee to the Feds for them? Actually, I really don't care one way or the other, but it will be interesting to see how they are paid for and how willing the states are to work with each other based on that.

Also depends on how this cascades going forward. It's possible that NYC will be its own specific case and that other big cities won't be as hard hit. I don't think any other big city has anywhere close to the population density that NYC has - I was shocked when I went to Chicago a few years ago how un-big city it was compared to East Coast cities - tons of space and it never really felt cramped. Obviously a place like LA is similar - just spread out even further. And on top of it, NYC had the misfortune of going first and I'm sure they get even more international travelers passing through there than most other cities do (and they might spend time there) so when China was exporting Covid NYC was a prime spot to feel it.

[UNI88]

Talk about cherry picking.

All of yours, Ganny’s, and 89’s complaints were acknowledged in the article. It’s suggesting we learn from the past. For better or worse we cannot rely upon executive leadership from the current administration. This creates some obstacles we didn’t have in 1941. It’s also a different enemy with a different marching speed. We will have to rely more on state leadership and private business leadership focusing on societal obligations to win.

JFC, I sometimes feel like Hicks and Ripley trying to calm down Pvt. Hudson with this ....

Kalm goes on a fishing expedition and this happened.

Ganny's post is spot on about the differences in circumstances but it doesn't change my opinion that the Trump administration and federal government's response has been lackluster. There is a role that they could play in coordinating state efforts and helping to keep states from bidding against each other and driving up prices or hoarding supplies.

Are they choosing not to do this because of: 1) small government? 2) lazy? 3) there's a possibility that their cronies could profit from higher prices? or 4) some other reason? You can rationalize the administration's response all you want but Trump doesn't give a sh!t about small government so I don't think it's reason #1.

[GannonFan]

Yep, lot of ignorance thinking we just flipped a switch with WWII production.

Talk about cherry picking.

All of yours, Ganny’s, and 89’s complaints were acknowledged in the article. It’s suggesting we learn from the past. For better or worse we cannot rely upon executive leadership from the current administration. This creates some obstacles we didn’t have in 1941. It’s also a different enemy with a different marching speed. We will have to rely more on state leadership and private business leadership focusing on societal obligations to win.

JFC, I sometimes feel like Hicks or Ripley trying to calm down Pvt. Hudson with this ....

My criticism was more of your sensationalizing the headline and tone of this thread than the actual content of what you posted, especially since what you posted was already contradicting you.

And again with the history, it's not like FDR was singlehandedly directing production before and through the war - he had tons of help. What makes you think Trump doesn't have that help? I never would've been a fan of Pence before this but he's seemed to be perfectly adequate so far in his role chairing the response, and with the likes of Birx and Fauci on the team that's a pretty good start.

[GannonFan]

1941: Built the mightiest military in the world in no time.

2020: Can't produce respirators and pieces of cloth for health care workers to wear on their faces fast enough to save lives.

Maybe that Ross Perot guy was on to something.

1940-1944: built the mightiest military in the world (started ramping up summer 1940..Don't think were ahead of the Japs and Krauts until 1943. Soviets until at least 1944.

2020: In 2 months haven't run out of PPE yet, but there is a risk because 20 years ago started to allow most PPE to be produced overseas..Nevertheless, Like Flagship said, we will be overrun with ventilators by mid-summer.

Remember, we were feeding the Soviets stuff from the get go - planes and most notably jeeps and stuff - to allow them to focus on tanks. Soviets wouldn't have lasted without us, and we would've been up the creek without the Soviets hanging in there.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Plenty of places have run out of PPE.

Where? The worst hit is NYC. Cuomo a day or 2 ago said NY is ok now, but could run out in a week.

Cuomo doesnt even know what state hes in, that thick tongued retard is in so far over his head its embarrassing. You could look like a more clueless jag off on national TV if you tried. He has proven he cant handle the city in normal times, now he just looks incompetent.

[BDKJMU]

Seriously, I just said on the other thread how my kryptonite is people bastardizing history, especially US history, and then using that bungled knowledge of history to wrongly push an agenda in the present, and then someone comes out with this crap? 89's right, the ramp up for production for WWII was long and gradual - heck, we were still having supply issues well into the war in '42 and '43. Sure, by the end of the war we were cranking out stuff that just swamped whatever anyone else could produce, but it took awhile to get the ship pointed in the right direction. These half-arsed posts from people cherry-picking history aside of course.

Not to mention that prior to the war, US military production was already humming along. We were producing guns, planes, tanks, and so much more for France and the UK. Materially, we weren't caught off guard in 1941.

Yep. Think I have the below roughly right:
-Late 1939, after the war broke, US started selling the allies lots of stuff.
-June or July 1940, after the Krauts rolled the Frogs, after rolling most of the rest of Europe, Roosevelt brought in industry and got pledges to convert to military production and ramp up.
-By early 1941, the UK had run out of cash. Roosevelt came up with Lend Lease to get around the Neutrality Act, and started sending tons of stuff to the Western allies, and by the fall of 41' to the Soviets also..