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Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:37 pm
by kalm
They linked to the SBA’s FAQ page and it says this.
If true...
“Faith-based organizations are eligible to receive SBA loans regardless of whether they provide secular social services,” the SBA said in a statement. “No otherwise eligible organization will be disqualified from receiving a loan because of the religious nature, religious identity, or religious speech of the organization.”
https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/202 ... m=facebook
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:39 pm
by 89Hen
You know by now I don't read articles. Are they talking about just a church, or are things like church schools involved?
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:41 pm
by Chizzang
kalm wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:37 pm
They linked to the SBA’s FAQ page and it says this.
If true...
“Faith-based organizations are eligible to receive SBA loans regardless of whether they provide secular social services,” the SBA said in a statement. “No otherwise eligible organization will be disqualified from receiving a loan because of the religious nature, religious identity, or religious speech of the organization.”
https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/202 ... m=facebook
why should a church not be able to secure a loan..?
as long as its not "free money" then I don't see the issue
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:44 pm
by kalm
89Hen wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:39 pm
You know by now I don't read articles. Are they talking about just a church, or are things like church schools involved?
I posted the SBA statement which says regardless of whether they are religious sponsored social services.
This explains why you’re so uninformed. Lazy bastard...
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:46 pm
by Ivytalk
The link is to Friendly Atheist and takes about two minutes to read, even if you’re as slow a reader as I am.
My initial take is that any SBA loans to churches are problematic, if not illegal. Perhaps in anticipation of that outcome, the bishop of my diocese sent a letter to all parishes asking them to refrain from laying off staff during the church shutdowns. But this thread cries out for a treatise by JoltinJoe, so I’ll wait for that.
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:48 pm
by kalm
Chizzang wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:41 pm
kalm wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:37 pm
They linked to the SBA’s FAQ page and it says this.
If true...
why should a church not be able to secure a loan..?
as long as its not "free money" then I don't see the issue
1). Many of these loans will turn into forgivable grants if certain criteria are met.
2). It’s called the S BUSINESS A . Churches don’t pay property taxes, sales tax, etc. they should be last in line at best until every small business gets its pittance first.
Perhaps we need a small church ladministration government loaning authority?
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:50 pm
by 89Hen
kalm wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:44 pm
89Hen wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:39 pm
You know by now I don't read articles. Are they talking about just a church, or are things like church schools involved?
I posted the SBA statement which says regardless of whether they are religious sponsored social services.
This explains why you’re so uninformed. Lazy bastard...
I am what I am.
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:55 pm
by Ivytalk
89Hen wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:50 pm
kalm wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:44 pm
I posted the SBA statement which says regardless of whether they are religious sponsored social services.
This explains why you’re so uninformed. Lazy bastard...
I am what I am.
I’m Popeye the Sailor Man!
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:58 pm
by UNI88
kalm wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:48 pm
Chizzang wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:41 pm
why should a church not be able to secure a loan..?
as long as its not "free money" then I don't see the issue
1). Many of these loans will turn into forgivable grants if certain criteria are met.
2). It’s called the S BUSINESS A . Churches don’t pay property taxes, sales tax, etc. they should be last in line at best until every small business gets its pittance first.
Perhaps we need a small church administration government loaning authority?
My understanding is the PPP loans are meant to encourage organizations to maintain staffing and payroll. If they qualify and receive a loan and don't lay anyone off then the loan is forgiven.
Maybe the problem is semantic because the SBA is administering the program. If some other government alphabet agency was administering it, would you have a problem with churches being eligible.
Do churches employ people? Have churches and their revenue sources been impacted by the virus?
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:03 pm
by 89Hen
kalm wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:44 pm
89Hen wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:39 pm
You know by now I don't read articles. Are they talking about just a church, or are things like church schools involved?
I posted the SBA statement which says regardless of whether they are religious sponsored social services.
This explains why you’re so uninformed. Lazy bastard...
BTW, I read that. What I didn't read was the link to an atheist website.
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:07 pm
by dbackjon
Chizzang wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:41 pm
kalm wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:37 pm
They linked to the SBA’s FAQ page and it says this.
If true...
why should a church not be able to secure a loan..?
as long as its not "free money" then I don't see the issue
The SBA "loans" are pretty damn close to free money
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:11 pm
by Ibanez
Should tax-exempt entities be allowed to take taxpayer money..?
Hm....how bout "No, Scott.
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:14 pm
by Ibanez
kalm wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:48 pm
Chizzang wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:41 pm
why should a church not be able to secure a loan..?
as long as its not "free money" then I don't see the issue
1). Many of these loans will turn into forgivable grants if certain criteria are met.
2). It’s called the S BUSINESS A . Churches don’t pay property taxes, sales tax, etc. they should be last in line at best until every small business gets its pittance first.
Perhaps we need a small church ladministration government loaning authority?
I've never thought of a church as being a small business entity (the Catholic church certainly isn't) but if we allow a Church to receive SMALL BUSINESS aid...then does that pose a problem for their tax exempt status?
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:16 pm
by Winterborn
Ibanez wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:11 pm
Should tax-exempt entities be allowed to take taxpayer money..?
Hm....how bout "No, Scott.
What about charities and other tax exempt entities?
I believe food banks, good will stores, etc. are tax-exempt.
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:18 pm
by 89Hen
Sounds like other non-profits qualify but you're taking exception to churches based on their tax exemption. I can see taking exception because of church/state, but it's hard to make a case on tax exemption.
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:19 pm
by kalm
UNI88 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:58 pm
kalm wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:48 pm
1). Many of these loans will turn into forgivable grants if certain criteria are met.
2). It’s called the S BUSINESS A . Churches don’t pay property taxes, sales tax, etc. they should be last in line at best until every small business gets its pittance first.
Perhaps we need a small church administration government loaning authority?
My understanding is the PPP loans are meant to encourage organizations to maintain staffing and payroll. If they qualify and receive a loan and don't lay anyone off then the loan is forgiven.
Maybe the problem is semantic because the SBA is administering the program. If some other government alphabet agency was administering it, would you have a problem with churches being eligible.
Do churches employ people? Have churches and their revenue sources been impacted by the virus?
Great point.
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:24 pm
by kalm
Ibanez wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:14 pm
kalm wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:48 pm
1). Many of these loans will turn into forgivable grants if certain criteria are met.
2). It’s called the S BUSINESS A . Churches don’t pay property taxes, sales tax, etc. they should be last in line at best until every small business gets its pittance first.
Perhaps we need a small church ladministration government loaning authority?
I've never thought of a church as being a small business entity (the Catholic church certainly isn't) but if we allow a Church to receive SMALL BUSINESS aid...then does that pose a problem for their tax exempt status?
Another great point.
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:27 pm
by kalm
89Hen wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:18 pm
Sounds like other non-profits qualify but you're taking exception to churches based on their tax exemption. I can see taking exception because of church/state, but it's hard to make a case on tax exemption.
Valid argument. Are Food banks and the YMCA more essential than churches? You can make a case that churches perform some of the same services but “churches” are a fairly wide spectrum.
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:29 pm
by UNI88
dbackjon wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:07 pm
Chizzang wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:41 pm
why should a church not be able to secure a loan..?
as long as its not "free money" then I don't see the issue
The SBA "loans" are pretty damn close to free money
They're like the $1,200 individual payments but for organizations that employ people. Why turn away free money if the government is going to give it to you? Who is returning the $1,200?
This is one of the many reasons that I said Congress was rushing into the bailout and not putting the time they should have into designing a program that would help individuals and companies that really need it. They threw money at everyone rather than focusing it on problem areas.
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:33 pm
by kalm
UNI88 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:29 pm
dbackjon wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:07 pm
The SBA "loans" are pretty damn close to free money
They're like the $1,200 individual payments but for organizations that employ people. Why turn away free money if the government is going to give it to you? Who is returning the $1,200?
This is one of the many reasons that I said Congress was rushing into the bailout and not putting the time they should have into designing a program that would help individuals and companies that really need it. They threw money at everyone rather than focusing it on problem areas.
That’s true only if you think $1200 is gonna suffice. Not to go all Andrew Yang but I think that might be the tip of the iceberg...forever.
And as someone applying for SBA free money, you can rest assured their are hoops to jump through with banks.
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:39 pm
by Chizzang
Winterborn wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:16 pm
Ibanez wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:11 pm
Should tax-exempt entities be allowed to take taxpayer money..?
Hm....how bout "No, Scott.
What about charities and other tax exempt entities?
I believe food banks, good will stores, etc. are tax-exempt.
This ^
I work at a food bank and about 80% of our food comes from Churches
plus we pre-pack lunches for delivery and all the local churches do the delivery service - which is extensive and expensive
so it's not like they aren't "contributing to society" because they are tax exempt
I don't see why they wouldn't be at least in the running for these loans
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:40 pm
by 89Hen
kalm wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:27 pm
89Hen wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:18 pm
Sounds like other non-profits qualify but you're taking exception to churches based on their tax exemption. I can see taking exception because of church/state, but it's hard to make a case on tax exemption.
Valid argument. Are Food banks and the YMCA more essential than churches? You can make a case that churches perform some of the same services but “churches” are a fairly wide spectrum.
That was really directed at Raul, but since you replied... sure, but it would be really hard to have a test for who is essential or serves enough to get them. I mean the Connecticut Guinea Pig Rescue shouldn't be left in a lurch.
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:55 pm
by dbackjon
UNI88 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:29 pm
dbackjon wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:07 pm
The SBA "loans" are pretty damn close to free money
They're like the $1,200 individual payments but for organizations that employ people. Why turn away free money if the government is going to give it to you? Who is returning the $1,200?
This is one of the many reasons that I said Congress was rushing into the bailout and not putting the time they should have into designing a program that would help individuals and companies that really need it. They threw money at everyone rather than focusing it on problem areas.
Somewhat agree - I think the employee cap on the SBA was way to high, and the payroll standards too lax. They had to rush to make sure businesses knew it was coming and wouldn't lay too many off.
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:01 pm
by Ivytalk
First, churches simply aren’t businesses, although megachurch impresarios like Joel Osteen might disagree. SBA may not have jurisdiction to award these loans in the first place.
Second, to the extent a “business” may be involved, SBA policy precludes giving loans if they would promote religious instruction or activities.
Third, there may be an Establishment Clause issue.
Re: Should Churches Be Eligible For SBA Bailouts?
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:04 pm
by Chizzang
Ivytalk wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:01 pm
First, churches simply aren’t businesses, although megachurch impresarios like Joel Osteen might disagree. SBA may not have jurisdiction to award these loans in the first place.
Second, to the extent a “business” may be involved, SBA policy precludes giving loans if they would promote religious instruction or activities.
Third, there may be an Establishment Clause issue.
Jeeze...
way to throw a damp towel over a "hot topic" Ivy