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Re: China

Post by ∞∞∞ »

The last two posts are funny from generations that voted to borrow from the future and continually sold out America to the Chinese.

Congrats on your legacy. Maybe you should step aside.
Last edited by ∞∞∞ on Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: China

Post by AZGrizFan »

∞∞∞ wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:04 am The last two posts are funny from a generation that voted to borrow from the future and continually sold America to the Chinese.

Congrats on your legacy.
Well, they’re also from two INDIVIDUALS (you remember what those are, right?) who never supported that policy, and are pleased to see it change.
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Re: China

Post by ∞∞∞ »

AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:06 am
∞∞∞ wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:04 am The last two posts are funny from a generation that voted to borrow from the future and continually sold America to the Chinese.

Congrats on your legacy.
Well, they’re also from two INDIVIDUALS (you remember what those are, right?) who never supported that policy, and are pleased to see it change.
Nah, I've been here on this forum long enough to know you and CID are the EXACT types that sold America out.
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Re: China

Post by AZGrizFan »

∞∞∞ wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:07 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:06 am

Well, they’re also from two INDIVIDUALS (you remember what those are, right?) who never supported that policy, and are pleased to see it change.
Nah, I've been here on this forum long enough to know you and CID are the EXACT types that sold America out.
Mmm Kay. Good for you, Einstein. :lol: :lol: :dunce:
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Re: China

Post by UNI88 »

∞∞∞ wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:04 am The last two posts are funny from generations that voted to borrow from the future and continually sold out America to the Chinese.

Congrats on your legacy. Maybe you should step aside.
I'd be willing to step aside if I thought someone was remotely ready but your post shows a naivety that tells me you're probably not. Can I step aside for Ibanez?
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Re: China

Post by CID1990 »

∞∞∞ wrote:The last two posts are funny from generations that voted to borrow from the future and continually sold out America to the Chinese.

Congrats on your legacy. Maybe you should step aside.
Maybe you should stop dodging the question with your fallacious logic and tell us what kind of diplomacy you would use to get China to stop being a bad actor?

Because if I recall correctly, people who think like you were hypercritical of the belligerent/isolation approach we used with the Soviets. What happened with US foreign policy was your ideological forebears getting exactly what they wanted- just be nice to China and they’ll come along and reform themselves. So we’ve tried both now, and whaddaya know? The ideological left likes neither! (But still throws out the “diplomacy” canard like they know what that means)

So I’ll ask again before I accuse you of what you are actually up to - what kind of diplomacy?


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Re: China

Post by SDHornet »

houndawg wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:53 am
SDHornet wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:15 am

I disagree. If anything ever went hot with China, Trump would be one of the few politicians willing to do whatever is necessary to win. Just look how he bitch slapped Iran and the ruskies in Syria.

That said, I hope we never have to go to war with China but it it likely inevitable in our future.
Thats my point - it won't get hot with China when all they have to do is pay him off. If they agree to match his revenue from golfing he could, at last, become an actual billionaire :shock:
Pay who off, Biden and establishment dems/conks? Agreed.
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Re: China

Post by SDHornet »

CID1990 wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:30 pm
∞∞∞ wrote:The last two posts are funny from generations that voted to borrow from the future and continually sold out America to the Chinese.

Congrats on your legacy. Maybe you should step aside.
Maybe you should stop dodging the question with your fallacious logic and tell us what kind of diplomacy you would use to get China to stop being a bad actor?

Because if I recall correctly, people who think like you were hypercritical of the belligerent/isolation approach we used with the Soviets. What happened with US foreign policy was your ideological forebears getting exactly what they wanted- just be nice to China and they’ll come along and reform themselves. So we’ve tried both now, and whaddaya know? The ideological left likes neither! (But still throws out the “diplomacy” canard like they know what that means)

So I’ll ask again before I accuse you of what you are actually up to - what kind of diplomacy?


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Leftists never provide specifics, because they don't have any. Kinda like the "everything is racists" garbage they spew. It's a general cover to give themselves an out without actually providing solutions to problems.
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Re: China

Post by CID1990 »

SDHornet wrote:
CID1990 wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:30 pm Maybe you should stop dodging the question with your fallacious logic and tell us what kind of diplomacy you would use to get China to stop being a bad actor?

Because if I recall correctly, people who think like you were hypercritical of the belligerent/isolation approach we used with the Soviets. What happened with US foreign policy was your ideological forebears getting exactly what they wanted- just be nice to China and they’ll come along and reform themselves. So we’ve tried both now, and whaddaya know? The ideological left likes neither! (But still throws out the “diplomacy” canard like they know what that means)

So I’ll ask again before I accuse you of what you are actually up to - what kind of diplomacy?


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Leftists never provide specifics, because they don't have any. Kinda like the "everything is racists" garbage they spew. It's a general cover to give themselves an out without actually providing solutions to problems.
Diplomacy is literally a give and take.

Previously we have been all “give” with China.

Now we’re giving them a little tough love and the ideologues have no idea where their landing pad is. It’s comical.


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Re: China

Post by UNI88 »

SDHornet wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:46 pm
CID1990 wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:30 pm
Maybe you should stop dodging the question with your fallacious logic and tell us what kind of diplomacy you would use to get China to stop being a bad actor?

Because if I recall correctly, people who think like you were hypercritical of the belligerent/isolation approach we used with the Soviets. What happened with US foreign policy was your ideological forebears getting exactly what they wanted- just be nice to China and they’ll come along and reform themselves. So we’ve tried both now, and whaddaya know? The ideological left likes neither! (But still throws out the “diplomacy” canard like they know what that means)

So I’ll ask again before I accuse you of what you are actually up to - what kind of diplomacy?

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Leftists never provide specifics, because they don't have any. Kinda like the "everything is racists" garbage they spew. It's a general cover to give themselves an out without actually providing solutions to problems.
True but on the other side ...
Rightists never provide specifics, because they don't have any. Kinda like the "we're patriotic" BS they spew. It's a general cover to give themselves an out without actually providing solutions to problems.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
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Re: China

Post by CID1990 »

UNI88 wrote:
SDHornet wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:46 pm Leftists never provide specifics, because they don't have any. Kinda like the "everything is racists" garbage they spew. It's a general cover to give themselves an out without actually providing solutions to problems.
True but on the other side ...
Rightists never provide specifics, because they don't have any. Kinda like the "we're patriotic" BS they spew. It's a general cover to give themselves an out without actually providing solutions to problems.
I have specifics but I’m not a masochist like JSO.


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Re: China

Post by AZGrizFan »

UNI88 wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:51 pm
SDHornet wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:46 pm

Leftists never provide specifics, because they don't have any. Kinda like the "everything is racists" garbage they spew. It's a general cover to give themselves an out without actually providing solutions to problems.
True but on the other side ...
Rightists never provide specifics, because they don't have any. Kinda like the "we're patriotic" BS they spew. It's a general cover to give themselves an out without actually providing solutions to problems.
Bullshit. Trump has solved all kinds of ‘problems’ that have been plaguing the country for years, and which no normal politician had the balls to touch:

Prison sentencing reform
Drug pricing reform
Banking regulation reform
Tax Reform
Building the wall
Holding China accountable
Renegotiating NAFTA

The list goes on and on....
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Re: China

Post by UNI88 »

AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:08 pm
UNI88 wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:51 pm

True but on the other side ...
Rightists never provide specifics, because they don't have any. Kinda like the "we're patriotic" BS they spew. It's a general cover to give themselves an out without actually providing solutions to problems.
Bullshit. Trump has solved all kinds of ‘problems’ that have been plaguing the country for years, and which no normal politician had the balls to touch:

Prison sentencing reform
Drug pricing reform
Banking regulation reform
Tax Reform
Building the wall
Holding China accountable
Renegotiating NAFTA

The list goes on and on....
How'd he do with replacing Obamacare? Trump has done well at some things but he's as full of shit and/or looking to line his own and his friends pockets as the rest of them.

CID - libertarians aren't completely rightists.
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Re: China

Post by SDHornet »

UNI88 wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:11 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:08 pm

Bullshit. Trump has solved all kinds of ‘problems’ that have been plaguing the country for years, and which no normal politician had the balls to touch:

Prison sentencing reform
Drug pricing reform
Banking regulation reform
Tax Reform
Building the wall
Holding China accountable
Renegotiating NAFTA

The list goes on and on....
How'd he do with replacing Obamacare? Trump has done well at some things but he's as full of shit and/or looking to line his own and his friends pockets as the rest of them.

CID - libertarians aren't completely rightists.
Not to give a pass for Trump on Obamacare, but that was something the conks should have had ready on day 1 of Trumps presidency. They didn't because establishment conks also want a large government to control the people as well. Go figure.
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Re: China

Post by AZGrizFan »

UNI88 wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:11 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:08 pm

Bullshit. Trump has solved all kinds of ‘problems’ that have been plaguing the country for years, and which no normal politician had the balls to touch:

Prison sentencing reform
Drug pricing reform
Banking regulation reform
Tax Reform
Building the wall
Holding China accountable
Renegotiating NAFTA

The list goes on and on....
How'd he do with replacing Obamacare? Trump has done well at some things but he's as full of shit and/or looking to line his own and his friends pockets as the rest of them.

CID - libertarians aren't completely rightists.
Doesn’t change the fact no politician would touch 90% of these. And he did.
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Re: China

Post by Ibanez »

∞∞∞ wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:10 am
Ivytalk wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:36 am

So even Tripz is now hopping aboard the stop-China bandwagon?
No. I have plenty of issues with China, and their human right issues are atrocious, but I'm against closing relationships with any country. And it's not like the US is some beacon of freedom either. Plus Americans are plenty to blame in looking the other way in order to chase the almighty dollar. This US-China relationship is toxic, but everywhere has played a role in making it that way.

Problems can be fixed through diplomacy and cultural exchange, not military and shutting doors. The people of China - like the vast majority of people in the world - are good people. Both our governments, and corporate/state capitalism, are the issue.
Diplomacy only works if there's an honest, two exchange occurring. We don't have that with China.


Also - sometimes you need to kick a little ass. See USA vs CSA 1861 or USA vs Germany 1944.
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Re: China

Post by Ibanez »

UNI88 wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:30 am
∞∞∞ wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:04 am The last two posts are funny from generations that voted to borrow from the future and continually sold out America to the Chinese.

Congrats on your legacy. Maybe you should step aside.
I'd be willing to step aside if I thought someone was remotely ready but your post shows a naivety that tells me you're probably not. Can I step aside for Ibanez?
Let's have a soft handoff... :thumb:
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Re: China

Post by Ibanez »

∞∞∞ wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:07 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:06 am

Well, they’re also from two INDIVIDUALS (you remember what those are, right?) who never supported that policy, and are pleased to see it change.
Nah, I've been here on this forum long enough to know you and CID are the EXACT types that sold America out.
I don't know, Trip. You can say a lot about AZs politics but there's one thing about him that's clear - he's consistent. He's consistently been against our Chinese policy. He doesn't like any policy that has the US kowtowing to some other country or interest group. If the policy were equally beneficial, then I can see him having some level of support. But it isn't. Our policy with China is essentially, " Shut Up and take my money."


And the same with CID. If anything CID is our own Winston Churchill, sounding the alarm before anyone else and not giving an inch in what he knows to be right.


CID/AZ - I hope I characterized you two correctly. :coffee:
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Re: China

Post by Ibanez »

SDHornet wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:46 pm
CID1990 wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:30 pm
Maybe you should stop dodging the question with your fallacious logic and tell us what kind of diplomacy you would use to get China to stop being a bad actor?

Because if I recall correctly, people who think like you were hypercritical of the belligerent/isolation approach we used with the Soviets. What happened with US foreign policy was your ideological forebears getting exactly what they wanted- just be nice to China and they’ll come along and reform themselves. So we’ve tried both now, and whaddaya know? The ideological left likes neither! (But still throws out the “diplomacy” canard like they know what that means)

So I’ll ask again before I accuse you of what you are actually up to - what kind of diplomacy?


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Leftists never provide specifics, because they don't have any. Kinda like the "everything is racists" garbage they spew. It's a general cover to give themselves an out without actually providing solutions to problems.
It's true for both sides. And honestly, right now is a bit bizzarro world. I used to take comfort that, at a high level, Democrats argued emotions and Republicans argued facts. Now they both argue emotions. Facts aren't facts. Facts are whatever either side says they are. It's strange indeed.
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Re: China

Post by ∞∞∞ »

Ibanez wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:40 am
∞∞∞ wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:07 am

Nah, I've been here on this forum long enough to know you and CID are the EXACT types that sold America out.
I don't know, Trip. You can say a lot about AZs politics but there's one thing about him that's clear - he's consistent. He's consistently been against our Chinese policy. He doesn't like any policy that has the US kowtowing to some other country or interest group. If the policy were equally beneficial, then I can see him having some level of support. But it isn't. Our policy with China is essentially, " Shut Up and take my money."


And the same with CID. If anything CID is our own Winston Churchill, sounding the alarm before anyone else and not giving an inch in what he knows to be right.


CID/AZ - I hope I characterized you two correctly. :coffee:
The US-China relationship benefited both nations economically, tremendously I may add. It lifted China out of poverty and transformed it from agrarian-based to manufacturing-based. It transformed ours from manufacturing-based to research/services-based, which meant a more educated populace and higher-paying jobs.

Now imagine if we voted for policies where we took that new economic wealth and put it in stuff that mattered: education, medicine, renewable energy, re-training, infrastructure, space, world diplomacy, cultural exchanges, etc.

What did we do instead? Military spending, tax cuts which benefit a few, gutting education, corporate handouts...all so that wealth gained from the US-China relationship goes to a small percentage of people instead of benefiting the nation as a whole.

We could have EASILY put our money into things that kept us growing as a nation and well ahead of China.

So yeah, complete failure.
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Re: China

Post by Ibanez »

∞∞∞ wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:37 am
Ibanez wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:40 am

I don't know, Trip. You can say a lot about AZs politics but there's one thing about him that's clear - he's consistent. He's consistently been against our Chinese policy. He doesn't like any policy that has the US kowtowing to some other country or interest group. If the policy were equally beneficial, then I can see him having some level of support. But it isn't. Our policy with China is essentially, " Shut Up and take my money."


And the same with CID. If anything CID is our own Winston Churchill, sounding the alarm before anyone else and not giving an inch in what he knows to be right.


CID/AZ - I hope I characterized you two correctly. :coffee:
The US-China relationship benefited both nations economically, tremendously I may add. It lifted China out of poverty and transformed it from agrarian-based to manufacturing-based. It transformed ours from manufacturing-based to research/services-based, which meant a more educated populace and higher-paying jobs.

Now imagine if we voted for policies where we took that new economic wealth and put it in stuff that mattered: education, medicine, renewable energy, re-training, infrastructure, space, world diplomacy, cultural exchanges, etc.

What did we do instead? Military spending, tax cuts which benefit a few, gutting education, corporate handouts...all so that wealth from the US-China relationship goes to a small percentage of people instead of benefiting the nation as a whole.

We could have EASILY put our money into things that kept us growing as a nation and ahead of China.

So yeah, complete failure.
No, I know our money went to China which helped it pull itself out of the quagmire caused by its socialist policies. In return we got a lot of cheap products, lost a lot of jobs and intellectual property.

The relationship isn't always going to be 1:1. But you can't sit there and tell me that our policies towards China have made it a more open, inviting and respectable country to do business with. That our policies have made them "play nice" with the majority of other countries. That our policies and treatment of them have made them respect us. They haven't. They manipulate their currency, steal out IP and regularly hack our major financial institutions.
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Re: China

Post by ∞∞∞ »

But that's the point.

Instead of using our relationship and wealth in a beneficial way, we allowed a handful of Americans to sell us out to the point where China figured they can f*ck us over - easily I might add - and get away with it. And what did other Americans do, reward that behavior.

Then you get idiots like CID and AZ coming in saying "WE NEED TO STOP CHINA" (yeah no sh*t) when they were the ones voting for policies and politicians - for decades - that allowed this to happen. It's ironic when they tell others to step aside and let them handle it.

It'd be funny if so many Americans - and future Americans - weren't hurt by these selfish policies.
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Re: China

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:08 pm
UNI88 wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:51 pm

True but on the other side ...
Rightists never provide specifics, because they don't have any. Kinda like the "we're patriotic" BS they spew. It's a general cover to give themselves an out without actually providing solutions to problems.
Bullshit. Trump has solved all kinds of ‘problems’ that have been plaguing the country for years, and which no normal politician had the balls to touch:

Prison sentencing reform
Drug pricing reform
Banking regulation reform
Tax Reform
Building the wall
Holding China accountable
Renegotiating NAFTA

The list goes on and on....
I’m not sure he’s “solved” any of them and there are several where the long term economic benefits remain to be seen for decades.

Most politicians pay lip service if not take small actions at all of these.

Perhaps he’s been more agressive in some regards?
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Re: China

Post by CID1990 »

∞∞∞ wrote:But that's the point.

Instead of using our relationship and wealth in a beneficial way, we allowed a handful of Americans to sell us out to the point where China figured they can f*ck us over - easily I might add - and get away with it. And what did other Americans do, reward that behavior.

Then you get idiots like CID and AZ coming in saying "WE NEED TO STOP CHINA" (yeah no sh*t) when they were the ones voting for policies and politicians - for decades - that allowed this to happen. It's ironic when they tell others to step aside and let them handle it.

It'd be funny if so many Americans - and future Americans - weren't hurt by these selfish policies.
I see you took an off-ramp on the question and decided to throw some ad hominems on your way off.

YOU said we should use diplomacy. So how about stop being a catch-word ideologue and tell us what you mean by that? Or go back and learn to make an argument using supporting facts.

And for your information, nobody I have ever voted for has been President. Ever. But I guaran fucking tee you that one of your heroes has been one of these China enablers you speak of.

While you continually look back and whine and point fingers about our missteps (which are not being denied) I’ll continue to look forward at what we have to do to protect the well being of America and the rest of the free world in the process.


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Re: China

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:14 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:08 pm

Bullshit. Trump has solved all kinds of ‘problems’ that have been plaguing the country for years, and which no normal politician had the balls to touch:

Prison sentencing reform
Drug pricing reform
Banking regulation reform
Tax Reform
Building the wall
Holding China accountable
Renegotiating NAFTA

The list goes on and on....
I’m not sure he’s “solved” any of them and there are several where the long term economic benefits remain to be seen for decades.

Most politicians pay lip service if not take small actions at all of these.

Perhaps he’s been more agressive in some regards?
Yeah. I distinctly remember Obama attacking all those with a vengeance. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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