China
- AZGrizFan
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Re: China
Well, they’re also from two INDIVIDUALS (you remember what those are, right?) who never supported that policy, and are pleased to see it change.
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"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
Re: China
- AZGrizFan
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Re: China
Mmm Kay. Good for you, Einstein.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
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"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
- UNI88
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Re: China
I'd be willing to step aside if I thought someone was remotely ready but your post shows a naivety that tells me you're probably not. Can I step aside for Ibanez?
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
- CID1990
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Re: China
Maybe you should stop dodging the question with your fallacious logic and tell us what kind of diplomacy you would use to get China to stop being a bad actor?∞∞∞ wrote:The last two posts are funny from generations that voted to borrow from the future and continually sold out America to the Chinese.
Congrats on your legacy. Maybe you should step aside.
Because if I recall correctly, people who think like you were hypercritical of the belligerent/isolation approach we used with the Soviets. What happened with US foreign policy was your ideological forebears getting exactly what they wanted- just be nice to China and they’ll come along and reform themselves. So we’ve tried both now, and whaddaya know? The ideological left likes neither! (But still throws out the “diplomacy” canard like they know what that means)
So I’ll ask again before I accuse you of what you are actually up to - what kind of diplomacy?
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Re: China
Pay who off, Biden and establishment dems/conks? Agreed.houndawg wrote: ↑Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:53 amThats my point - it won't get hot with China when all they have to do is pay him off. If they agree to match his revenue from golfing he could, at last, become an actual billionaireSDHornet wrote: ↑Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:15 am
I disagree. If anything ever went hot with China, Trump would be one of the few politicians willing to do whatever is necessary to win. Just look how he bitch slapped Iran and the ruskies in Syria.
That said, I hope we never have to go to war with China but it it likely inevitable in our future.
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Re: China
Leftists never provide specifics, because they don't have any. Kinda like the "everything is racists" garbage they spew. It's a general cover to give themselves an out without actually providing solutions to problems.CID1990 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:30 pmMaybe you should stop dodging the question with your fallacious logic and tell us what kind of diplomacy you would use to get China to stop being a bad actor?∞∞∞ wrote:The last two posts are funny from generations that voted to borrow from the future and continually sold out America to the Chinese.
Congrats on your legacy. Maybe you should step aside.
Because if I recall correctly, people who think like you were hypercritical of the belligerent/isolation approach we used with the Soviets. What happened with US foreign policy was your ideological forebears getting exactly what they wanted- just be nice to China and they’ll come along and reform themselves. So we’ve tried both now, and whaddaya know? The ideological left likes neither! (But still throws out the “diplomacy” canard like they know what that means)
So I’ll ask again before I accuse you of what you are actually up to - what kind of diplomacy?
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- CID1990
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Re: China
Diplomacy is literally a give and take.SDHornet wrote:Leftists never provide specifics, because they don't have any. Kinda like the "everything is racists" garbage they spew. It's a general cover to give themselves an out without actually providing solutions to problems.CID1990 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:30 pm Maybe you should stop dodging the question with your fallacious logic and tell us what kind of diplomacy you would use to get China to stop being a bad actor?
Because if I recall correctly, people who think like you were hypercritical of the belligerent/isolation approach we used with the Soviets. What happened with US foreign policy was your ideological forebears getting exactly what they wanted- just be nice to China and they’ll come along and reform themselves. So we’ve tried both now, and whaddaya know? The ideological left likes neither! (But still throws out the “diplomacy” canard like they know what that means)
So I’ll ask again before I accuse you of what you are actually up to - what kind of diplomacy?
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Previously we have been all “give” with China.
Now we’re giving them a little tough love and the ideologues have no idea where their landing pad is. It’s comical.
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- UNI88
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Re: China
True but on the other side ...SDHornet wrote: ↑Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:46 pmLeftists never provide specifics, because they don't have any. Kinda like the "everything is racists" garbage they spew. It's a general cover to give themselves an out without actually providing solutions to problems.CID1990 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:30 pm
Maybe you should stop dodging the question with your fallacious logic and tell us what kind of diplomacy you would use to get China to stop being a bad actor?
Because if I recall correctly, people who think like you were hypercritical of the belligerent/isolation approach we used with the Soviets. What happened with US foreign policy was your ideological forebears getting exactly what they wanted- just be nice to China and they’ll come along and reform themselves. So we’ve tried both now, and whaddaya know? The ideological left likes neither! (But still throws out the “diplomacy” canard like they know what that means)
So I’ll ask again before I accuse you of what you are actually up to - what kind of diplomacy?
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Rightists never provide specifics, because they don't have any. Kinda like the "we're patriotic" BS they spew. It's a general cover to give themselves an out without actually providing solutions to problems.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
- CID1990
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Re: China
I have specifics but I’m not a masochist like JSO.UNI88 wrote:True but on the other side ...
Rightists never provide specifics, because they don't have any. Kinda like the "we're patriotic" BS they spew. It's a general cover to give themselves an out without actually providing solutions to problems.
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- AZGrizFan
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Re: China
Bullshit. Trump has solved all kinds of ‘problems’ that have been plaguing the country for years, and which no normal politician had the balls to touch:
Prison sentencing reform
Drug pricing reform
Banking regulation reform
Tax Reform
Building the wall
Holding China accountable
Renegotiating NAFTA
The list goes on and on....
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
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Re: China
How'd he do with replacing Obamacare? Trump has done well at some things but he's as full of shit and/or looking to line his own and his friends pockets as the rest of them.AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:08 pmBullshit. Trump has solved all kinds of ‘problems’ that have been plaguing the country for years, and which no normal politician had the balls to touch:
Prison sentencing reform
Drug pricing reform
Banking regulation reform
Tax Reform
Building the wall
Holding China accountable
Renegotiating NAFTA
The list goes on and on....
CID - libertarians aren't completely rightists.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
- SDHornet
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Re: China
Not to give a pass for Trump on Obamacare, but that was something the conks should have had ready on day 1 of Trumps presidency. They didn't because establishment conks also want a large government to control the people as well. Go figure.UNI88 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:11 pmHow'd he do with replacing Obamacare? Trump has done well at some things but he's as full of shit and/or looking to line his own and his friends pockets as the rest of them.AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:08 pm
Bullshit. Trump has solved all kinds of ‘problems’ that have been plaguing the country for years, and which no normal politician had the balls to touch:
Prison sentencing reform
Drug pricing reform
Banking regulation reform
Tax Reform
Building the wall
Holding China accountable
Renegotiating NAFTA
The list goes on and on....
CID - libertarians aren't completely rightists.
- AZGrizFan
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Re: China
Doesn’t change the fact no politician would touch 90% of these. And he did.UNI88 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:11 pmHow'd he do with replacing Obamacare? Trump has done well at some things but he's as full of shit and/or looking to line his own and his friends pockets as the rest of them.AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:08 pm
Bullshit. Trump has solved all kinds of ‘problems’ that have been plaguing the country for years, and which no normal politician had the balls to touch:
Prison sentencing reform
Drug pricing reform
Banking regulation reform
Tax Reform
Building the wall
Holding China accountable
Renegotiating NAFTA
The list goes on and on....
CID - libertarians aren't completely rightists.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
Re: China
Diplomacy only works if there's an honest, two exchange occurring. We don't have that with China.∞∞∞ wrote: ↑Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:10 amNo. I have plenty of issues with China, and their human right issues are atrocious, but I'm against closing relationships with any country. And it's not like the US is some beacon of freedom either. Plus Americans are plenty to blame in looking the other way in order to chase the almighty dollar. This US-China relationship is toxic, but everywhere has played a role in making it that way.
Problems can be fixed through diplomacy and cultural exchange, not military and shutting doors. The people of China - like the vast majority of people in the world - are good people. Both our governments, and corporate/state capitalism, are the issue.
Also - sometimes you need to kick a little ass. See USA vs CSA 1861 or USA vs Germany 1944.
Turns out I might be a little gay. 89Hen 11/7/17
Re: China
I don't know, Trip. You can say a lot about AZs politics but there's one thing about him that's clear - he's consistent. He's consistently been against our Chinese policy. He doesn't like any policy that has the US kowtowing to some other country or interest group. If the policy were equally beneficial, then I can see him having some level of support. But it isn't. Our policy with China is essentially, " Shut Up and take my money."
And the same with CID. If anything CID is our own Winston Churchill, sounding the alarm before anyone else and not giving an inch in what he knows to be right.
CID/AZ - I hope I characterized you two correctly.
Turns out I might be a little gay. 89Hen 11/7/17
Re: China
It's true for both sides. And honestly, right now is a bit bizzarro world. I used to take comfort that, at a high level, Democrats argued emotions and Republicans argued facts. Now they both argue emotions. Facts aren't facts. Facts are whatever either side says they are. It's strange indeed.SDHornet wrote: ↑Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:46 pmLeftists never provide specifics, because they don't have any. Kinda like the "everything is racists" garbage they spew. It's a general cover to give themselves an out without actually providing solutions to problems.CID1990 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:30 pm
Maybe you should stop dodging the question with your fallacious logic and tell us what kind of diplomacy you would use to get China to stop being a bad actor?
Because if I recall correctly, people who think like you were hypercritical of the belligerent/isolation approach we used with the Soviets. What happened with US foreign policy was your ideological forebears getting exactly what they wanted- just be nice to China and they’ll come along and reform themselves. So we’ve tried both now, and whaddaya know? The ideological left likes neither! (But still throws out the “diplomacy” canard like they know what that means)
So I’ll ask again before I accuse you of what you are actually up to - what kind of diplomacy?
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Turns out I might be a little gay. 89Hen 11/7/17
Re: China
The US-China relationship benefited both nations economically, tremendously I may add. It lifted China out of poverty and transformed it from agrarian-based to manufacturing-based. It transformed ours from manufacturing-based to research/services-based, which meant a more educated populace and higher-paying jobs.Ibanez wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:40 amI don't know, Trip. You can say a lot about AZs politics but there's one thing about him that's clear - he's consistent. He's consistently been against our Chinese policy. He doesn't like any policy that has the US kowtowing to some other country or interest group. If the policy were equally beneficial, then I can see him having some level of support. But it isn't. Our policy with China is essentially, " Shut Up and take my money."
And the same with CID. If anything CID is our own Winston Churchill, sounding the alarm before anyone else and not giving an inch in what he knows to be right.
CID/AZ - I hope I characterized you two correctly.
Now imagine if we voted for policies where we took that new economic wealth and put it in stuff that mattered: education, medicine, renewable energy, re-training, infrastructure, space, world diplomacy, cultural exchanges, etc.
What did we do instead? Military spending, tax cuts which benefit a few, gutting education, corporate handouts...all so that wealth gained from the US-China relationship goes to a small percentage of people instead of benefiting the nation as a whole.
We could have EASILY put our money into things that kept us growing as a nation and well ahead of China.
So yeah, complete failure.
Re: China
No, I know our money went to China which helped it pull itself out of the quagmire caused by its socialist policies. In return we got a lot of cheap products, lost a lot of jobs and intellectual property.∞∞∞ wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:37 amThe US-China relationship benefited both nations economically, tremendously I may add. It lifted China out of poverty and transformed it from agrarian-based to manufacturing-based. It transformed ours from manufacturing-based to research/services-based, which meant a more educated populace and higher-paying jobs.Ibanez wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:40 am
I don't know, Trip. You can say a lot about AZs politics but there's one thing about him that's clear - he's consistent. He's consistently been against our Chinese policy. He doesn't like any policy that has the US kowtowing to some other country or interest group. If the policy were equally beneficial, then I can see him having some level of support. But it isn't. Our policy with China is essentially, " Shut Up and take my money."
And the same with CID. If anything CID is our own Winston Churchill, sounding the alarm before anyone else and not giving an inch in what he knows to be right.
CID/AZ - I hope I characterized you two correctly.
Now imagine if we voted for policies where we took that new economic wealth and put it in stuff that mattered: education, medicine, renewable energy, re-training, infrastructure, space, world diplomacy, cultural exchanges, etc.
What did we do instead? Military spending, tax cuts which benefit a few, gutting education, corporate handouts...all so that wealth from the US-China relationship goes to a small percentage of people instead of benefiting the nation as a whole.
We could have EASILY put our money into things that kept us growing as a nation and ahead of China.
So yeah, complete failure.
The relationship isn't always going to be 1:1. But you can't sit there and tell me that our policies towards China have made it a more open, inviting and respectable country to do business with. That our policies have made them "play nice" with the majority of other countries. That our policies and treatment of them have made them respect us. They haven't. They manipulate their currency, steal out IP and regularly hack our major financial institutions.
Turns out I might be a little gay. 89Hen 11/7/17
Re: China
But that's the point.
Instead of using our relationship and wealth in a beneficial way, we allowed a handful of Americans to sell us out to the point where China figured they can f*ck us over - easily I might add - and get away with it. And what did other Americans do, reward that behavior.
Then you get idiots like CID and AZ coming in saying "WE NEED TO STOP CHINA" (yeah no sh*t) when they were the ones voting for policies and politicians - for decades - that allowed this to happen. It's ironic when they tell others to step aside and let them handle it.
It'd be funny if so many Americans - and future Americans - weren't hurt by these selfish policies.
Instead of using our relationship and wealth in a beneficial way, we allowed a handful of Americans to sell us out to the point where China figured they can f*ck us over - easily I might add - and get away with it. And what did other Americans do, reward that behavior.
Then you get idiots like CID and AZ coming in saying "WE NEED TO STOP CHINA" (yeah no sh*t) when they were the ones voting for policies and politicians - for decades - that allowed this to happen. It's ironic when they tell others to step aside and let them handle it.
It'd be funny if so many Americans - and future Americans - weren't hurt by these selfish policies.
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Re: China
I’m not sure he’s “solved” any of them and there are several where the long term economic benefits remain to be seen for decades.AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:08 pmBullshit. Trump has solved all kinds of ‘problems’ that have been plaguing the country for years, and which no normal politician had the balls to touch:
Prison sentencing reform
Drug pricing reform
Banking regulation reform
Tax Reform
Building the wall
Holding China accountable
Renegotiating NAFTA
The list goes on and on....
Most politicians pay lip service if not take small actions at all of these.
Perhaps he’s been more agressive in some regards?
- CID1990
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Re: China
I see you took an off-ramp on the question and decided to throw some ad hominems on your way off.∞∞∞ wrote:But that's the point.
Instead of using our relationship and wealth in a beneficial way, we allowed a handful of Americans to sell us out to the point where China figured they can f*ck us over - easily I might add - and get away with it. And what did other Americans do, reward that behavior.
Then you get idiots like CID and AZ coming in saying "WE NEED TO STOP CHINA" (yeah no sh*t) when they were the ones voting for policies and politicians - for decades - that allowed this to happen. It's ironic when they tell others to step aside and let them handle it.
It'd be funny if so many Americans - and future Americans - weren't hurt by these selfish policies.
YOU said we should use diplomacy. So how about stop being a catch-word ideologue and tell us what you mean by that? Or go back and learn to make an argument using supporting facts.
And for your information, nobody I have ever voted for has been President. Ever. But I guaran fucking tee you that one of your heroes has been one of these China enablers you speak of.
While you continually look back and whine and point fingers about our missteps (which are not being denied) I’ll continue to look forward at what we have to do to protect the well being of America and the rest of the free world in the process.
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- AZGrizFan
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Re: China
Yeah. I distinctly remember Obama attacking all those with a vengeance.kalm wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:14 amI’m not sure he’s “solved” any of them and there are several where the long term economic benefits remain to be seen for decades.AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:08 pm
Bullshit. Trump has solved all kinds of ‘problems’ that have been plaguing the country for years, and which no normal politician had the balls to touch:
Prison sentencing reform
Drug pricing reform
Banking regulation reform
Tax Reform
Building the wall
Holding China accountable
Renegotiating NAFTA
The list goes on and on....
Most politicians pay lip service if not take small actions at all of these.
Perhaps he’s been more agressive in some regards?
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12