Hey Seattle and Portland.....

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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by Ivytalk »

Winterborn wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:02 am
Ibanez wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:05 am


You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask for philosophy or theories. I asked for your opinion.

Carlyle's main thrust is that great men were born that way. I disagree.
I didn't say leaders were born, not made. You want to honestly sit there and tell me that visionaries, strong and powerful men HAVEN'T built economic systems? Haven't changed the world we live in? Ordinary people can effect change, sure. But to your example of our legal and economic systems - those weren't put together by ordinary people. Alexander Hamilton was not your average lawyer. He was made...not born.
I agree as well. Everybody enters the world the same: wet, naked and screaming. What you do after that is up to you. Famous or great people were not that way before what ever made them great, they are considered great/powerful because they made a choice to build something (nations, companies, scientific discoveries, etc) and then became how we remember them today.
We built that, goddammit! :x
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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by CID1990 »

Winterborn wrote:
Ibanez wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:05 am


You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask for philosophy or theories. I asked for your opinion.

Carlyle's main thrust is that great men were born that way. I disagree.
I didn't say leaders were born, not made. You want to honestly sit there and tell me that visionaries, strong and powerful men HAVEN'T built economic systems? Haven't changed the world we live in? Ordinary people can effect change, sure. But to your example of our legal and economic systems - those weren't put together by ordinary people. Alexander Hamilton was not your average lawyer. He was made...not born.
Everybody enters the world the same: wet, naked and screaming.
Hell, that’s how I want to exit it


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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by Winterborn »

CID1990 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:09 am
Winterborn wrote:
Everybody enters the world the same: wet, naked and screaming.
Hell, that’s how I want to exit it


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Not a bad way to enter Valhalla. :thumb:
“The best of all things is to learn. Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.” – Louis L’Amour

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein

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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by Ibanez »

Winterborn wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:02 am
Ibanez wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:05 am


You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask for philosophy or theories. I asked for your opinion.

Carlyle's main thrust is that great men were born that way. I disagree.
I didn't say leaders were born, not made. You want to honestly sit there and tell me that visionaries, strong and powerful men HAVEN'T built economic systems? Haven't changed the world we live in? Ordinary people can effect change, sure. But to your example of our legal and economic systems - those weren't put together by ordinary people. Alexander Hamilton was not your average lawyer. He was made...not born.
I agree as well. Everybody enters the world the same: wet, naked and screaming. What you do after that is up to you. Famous or great people were not that way before what ever made them great, they are considered great/powerful because they made a choice to build something (nations, companies, scientific discoveries, etc) and then became how we remember them today.
Their environment, experiences, opportunities, failures, etc... are what make them great.

Interesting, that is also what makes people average, dull, evil, etc... :coffee: :mrgreen:
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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by Ibanez »

Winterborn wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:02 am
Ibanez wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:05 am


You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask for philosophy or theories. I asked for your opinion.

Carlyle's main thrust is that great men were born that way. I disagree.
I didn't say leaders were born, not made. You want to honestly sit there and tell me that visionaries, strong and powerful men HAVEN'T built economic systems? Haven't changed the world we live in? Ordinary people can effect change, sure. But to your example of our legal and economic systems - those weren't put together by ordinary people. Alexander Hamilton was not your average lawyer. He was made...not born.
I agree as well. Everybody enters the world the same: wet, naked and screaming. What you do after that is up to you. Famous or great people were not that way before what ever made them great, they are considered great/powerful because they made a choice to build something (nations, companies, scientific discoveries, etc) and then became how we remember them today.
I agree. Plenty of people born into wealth and power didn't amount to anything. Plenty of people born into poverty, middle class homes have amounted to greatness.

Their environment, experiences, opportunities, failures, etc... are what make them great.

Interesting, that is also what makes people average, dull, evil, etc... :coffee: :mrgreen:
Turns out I might be a little gay. 89Hen 11/7/17

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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by UNI88 »

Winterborn wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:13 am
CID1990 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:09 am

Hell, that’s how I want to exit it

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Not a bad way to enter Valhalla. :thumb:
Being waterboarded by terrorists? :D

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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by Winterborn »

Ibanez wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:27 am
Winterborn wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:02 am


I agree as well. Everybody enters the world the same: wet, naked and screaming. What you do after that is up to you. Famous or great people were not that way before what ever made them great, they are considered great/powerful because they made a choice to build something (nations, companies, scientific discoveries, etc) and then became how we remember them today.
I agree. Plenty of people born into wealth and power didn't amount to anything. Plenty of people born into poverty, middle class homes have amounted to greatness.

Their environment, experiences, opportunities, failures, etc... are what make them great.

Interesting, that is also what makes people average, dull, evil, etc... :coffee: :mrgreen:

I know there is a common thread there if I could just put my finger on it..... :)
“The best of all things is to learn. Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.” – Louis L’Amour

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein

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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by Winterborn »

UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:28 am
Winterborn wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:13 am


Not a bad way to enter Valhalla. :thumb:
Being waterboarded by terrorists? :D
Buzzkill...... :lol:
“The best of all things is to learn. Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.” – Louis L’Amour

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein

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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by 89Hen »

Winterborn wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:32 am
UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:28 am


Being waterboarded by terrorists? :D
Buzzkill...... :lol:
Have to admit, I was thinking of tiger cages.
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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by GannonFan »

Ibanez wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:27 am
Winterborn wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:02 am


I agree as well. Everybody enters the world the same: wet, naked and screaming. What you do after that is up to you. Famous or great people were not that way before what ever made them great, they are considered great/powerful because they made a choice to build something (nations, companies, scientific discoveries, etc) and then became how we remember them today.
I agree. Plenty of people born into wealth and power didn't amount to anything. Plenty of people born into poverty, middle class homes have amounted to greatness.

Their environment, experiences, opportunities, failures, etc... are what make them great.

Interesting, that is also what makes people average, dull, evil, etc... :coffee: :mrgreen:
Yup, I know Trip has thrown out that idea that he's wholly against the Great Man theory, but like most things with Trip, I doubt he's thought it through enough nor does he have a good enough grasp of history to see the holes in his argument. I don't think it has anything to do with being destined, but there are plenty of examples of individuals in history stepping up to shape an event or history, and in the absence of them doing it at that point in time then things would've turned out very differently.
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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by Ibanez »

GannonFan wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:42 am
Ibanez wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:27 am

I agree. Plenty of people born into wealth and power didn't amount to anything. Plenty of people born into poverty, middle class homes have amounted to greatness.

Their environment, experiences, opportunities, failures, etc... are what make them great.

Interesting, that is also what makes people average, dull, evil, etc... :coffee: :mrgreen:
Yup, I know Trip has thrown out that idea that he's wholly against the Great Man theory, but like most things with Trip, I doubt he's thought it through enough nor does he have a good enough grasp of history to see the holes in his argument. I don't think it has anything to do with being destined, but there are plenty of examples of individuals in history stepping up to shape an event or history, and in the absence of them doing it at that point in time then things would've turned out very differently.
Exactly. The Great Man Theory has an element of the divine in it. We aren't talking about that. It's a theory. Let's look at who has changed the world, made impacts (good and bad), been influential, whatever, and see where they come from. What opportunities did they have or take advantage of. There's nothing divine there.

I'm not a complete moron, Trip.
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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by ∞∞∞ »

I really have no idea how anyone is born great - and I believe way more people agree with that idea than not.

Society builds great people; without others, great men, ideas, inventions, etc. do not exist.

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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by kalm »

∞∞∞ wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:39 am
I really have no idea how anyone is born great - and I believe way more people agree with that idea than not.

Society builds great people; without others, great men, ideas, inventions, etc. do not exist.
No one is born great. Many with the qualities of greatness are never granted the opportunity.

But given the right disposition, intellect, upbringing attributes...etc AND the opportunity AND a little luck/chance, there are some better equipped than others.
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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:01 am
∞∞∞ wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:39 am
I really have no idea how anyone is born great - and I believe way more people agree with that idea than not.

Society builds great people; without others, great men, ideas, inventions, etc. do not exist.
No one is born great. Many with the qualities of greatness are never granted the opportunity.

But given the right disposition, intellect, upbringing attributes...etc AND the opportunity AND a little luck/chance, there are some better equipped than others.
Yup, the important nuance. Gotta get past the surface.
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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by CID1990 »

kalm wrote:
∞∞∞ wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:39 am
I really have no idea how anyone is born great - and I believe way more people agree with that idea than not.

Society builds great people; without others, great men, ideas, inventions, etc. do not exist.
No one is born great. Many with the qualities of greatness are never granted the opportunity.

But given the right disposition, intellect, upbringing attributes...etc AND the opportunity AND a little luck/chance, there are some better equipped than others.
The Guns, Germs, and Steel crowd doesn’t approve of your statement

Get with the program


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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by Ibanez »

∞∞∞ wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:39 am
I really have no idea how anyone is born great - and I believe way more people agree with that idea than not.

Society builds great people; without others, great men, ideas, inventions, etc. do not exist.
So with those great people, built by society, who you do think is creating systems?

Hint: It's in my first post on this subject.
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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by Ibanez »

CID1990 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:52 am
kalm wrote:
No one is born great. Many with the qualities of greatness are never granted the opportunity.

But given the right disposition, intellect, upbringing attributes...etc AND the opportunity AND a little luck/chance, there are some better equipped than others.
The Guns, Germs, and Steel crowd doesn’t approve of your statement

Get with the program


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I've tried to read that book. I've tried to listen to that book. I just can't get through it. Jared Diamond is a dullard.


A book you may enjoy is 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491:_New ... e_Columbus
The book presents recent research findings in different fields that suggest human populations in the Western Hemisphere—that is, the indigenous peoples of the Americas—were more numerous, had arrived earlier, were more sophisticated culturally, and controlled and shaped the natural landscape to a greater extent than scholars had previously thought.
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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by 89Hen »

kalm wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:01 am
∞∞∞ wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:39 am
I really have no idea how anyone is born great - and I believe way more people agree with that idea than not.

Society builds great people; without others, great men, ideas, inventions, etc. do not exist.
No one is born great. Many with the qualities of greatness are never granted the opportunity.

But given the right disposition, intellect, upbringing attributes...etc AND the opportunity AND a little luck/chance, there are some better equipped than others.
kalm and trip

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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by kalm »

89Hen wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:05 pm
kalm wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:01 am


No one is born great. Many with the qualities of greatness are never granted the opportunity.

But given the right disposition, intellect, upbringing attributes...etc AND the opportunity AND a little luck/chance, there are some better equipped than others.
kalm and trip

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What about my post do you disagree with?
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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by Ivytalk »

89Hen wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:05 pm
kalm wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:01 am


No one is born great. Many with the qualities of greatness are never granted the opportunity.

But given the right disposition, intellect, upbringing attributes...etc AND the opportunity AND a little luck/chance, there are some better equipped than others.
kalm and trip

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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by 89Hen »

kalm wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:06 pm
What about my post do you disagree with?
Nothing, but it sounded just like them. My God you are bore these days. :ohno:
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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by CID1990 »

Ibanez wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:52 am
The Guns, Germs, and Steel crowd doesn’t approve of your statement

Get with the program


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I've tried to read that book. I've tried to listen to that book. I just can't get through it. Jared Diamond is a dullard.


A book you may enjoy is 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491:_New ... e_Columbus
The book presents recent research findings in different fields that suggest human populations in the Western Hemisphere—that is, the indigenous peoples of the Americas—were more numerous, had arrived earlier, were more sophisticated culturally, and controlled and shaped the natural landscape to a greater extent than scholars had previously thought.
In addition to being dull, he completely homogenizes humankind over its existence, sort of an acceptable treatise on “all lives matter”

I find his science questionable - like an effort to say that selection, environmental pressures, climate, competition, and proximity affect and shape all living things EXCEPT homo sapiens over the last 100,000 years

In fact, it isn’t questionable - its garbage


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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by CitadelGrad »

Ibanez wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:50 am
CitadelGrad wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:29 pm


You have no idea what I'm doing or not doing.
Oh, please enlighten us.
Why the fuck would I do that?
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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by CitadelGrad »

Ivytalk wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:02 am
CitadelGrad wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:35 pm


Not even close. Haven't sat in a cubicle in over 20 years. Haven't worked in a corporate setting for even longer. I rather like my job.
Executive Director of the Sons of the Confederacy?
I do what OL FU does, or what he used to do. I haven't communicated with him in a few years. Don't know what he's up to now.
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Re: Hey Seattle and Portland.....

Post by CitadelGrad »

Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler moving to avoid rioters targeting his home

https://nypost.com/2020/09/02/portland- ... -building/
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