2020 General Election

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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by kalm »

Actual headline from Vanity Fair...
Donald Trump, Colossal Asshole, Says Doctors Get Extra Cash If People Die of COVID-19

The president is now claiming frontline workers have an incentive to pad their coronavirus deaths: $2,000 a pop.
As the author says everything out of his mouth is either a confession or projection.

:nod:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/10 ... Do7Klt1XT8
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by Baldy »

Is this only unique to Florida, or???

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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by SeattleGriz »

kalm wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:10 am Actual headline from Vanity Fair...
Donald Trump, Colossal Asshole, Says Doctors Get Extra Cash If People Die of COVID-19

The president is now claiming frontline workers have an incentive to pad their coronavirus deaths: $2,000 a pop.
As the author says everything out of his mouth is either a confession or projection.

:nod:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/10 ... Do7Klt1XT8
Don't you remember when we discussed this early in the COVID thread? What's old is new again!!!

Do you remember when the UW got busted for upcoding on Medicare to the tune of $50 million about 15 years ago?

Same concept. A COVID diagnosis pays out at a higher level than other illnesses.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by kalm »

SeattleGriz wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:32 am
kalm wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:10 am Actual headline from Vanity Fair...



As the author says everything out of his mouth is either a confession or projection.

:nod:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/10 ... Do7Klt1XT8
Don't you remember when we discussed this early in the COVID thread? What's old is new again!!!

Do you remember when the UW got busted for upcoding on Medicare to the tune of $50 million about 15 years ago?

Same concept. A COVID diagnosis pays out at a higher level than other illnesses.
Yes I do remember that theory. Now, show evidence of Docs doing it.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by SeattleGriz »

kalm wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:36 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:32 am

Don't you remember when we discussed this early in the COVID thread? What's old is new again!!!

Do you remember when the UW got busted for upcoding on Medicare to the tune of $50 million about 15 years ago?

Same concept. A COVID diagnosis pays out at a higher level than other illnesses.
Yes I do remember that theory. Now, show evidence of Docs doing it.
First, I just did with the UW Medicare example. While UW was committing fraud, they did it through the usage of ICD10 codes that paid out at a higher rate. That is what is happening here - using an ICD10 code that pays at a higher rate.
https://magazine.washington.edu/uw-pays ... ud-claims/

Secondly, if you don't think a doctor is going to use a code that pays more money when they are allowed, then you don't understand business. There is nothing wrong with the doctors getting paid more, especially if the code is warranted. You can bet the pay out will be reviewed by the government and possibly be changed, although the medical community will howl like they always do if payouts are lowered.

You got nothing here, but here you go. USA Today no less.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fac ... 000638001/
The coronavirus relief legislation created a 20% premium, or add-on, for COVID-19 Medicare patients.
By the way, it was the author that was projecting.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by kalm »

SeattleGriz wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:47 am
kalm wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:36 am

Yes I do remember that theory. Now, show evidence of Docs doing it.
First, I just did with the UW Medicare example. While UW was committing fraud, they did it through the usage of ICD10 codes that paid out at a higher rate. That is what is happening here - using an ICD10 code that pays at a higher rate.
https://magazine.washington.edu/uw-pays ... ud-claims/

Secondly, if you don't think a doctor is going to use a code that pays more money when they are allowed, then you don't understand business. There is nothing wrong with the doctors getting paid more, especially if the code is warranted. You can bet the pay out will be reviewed by the government and possibly be changed, although the medical community will howl like they always do if payouts are lowered.

You got nothing here, but here you go. USA Today no less.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fac ... 000638001/
The coronavirus relief legislation created a 20% premium, or add-on, for COVID-19 Medicare patients.
By the way, it was the author that was projecting.
We had Covid 15 years ago? Was Rick Scott in charge of UW Medicine?

The USA Today article provides no CURRENT evidence. It does say this...
There have been no public reports that hospitals are exaggerating COVID-19 numbers to receive higher Medicare payments.

Jensen didn't explicitly make that claim. He simply suggested there is an "avenue" to do so now that "plausible" COVID-19, not just laboratory-confirmed, cases can be greenlighted for Medicare payment and eligible for the 20% add-on allowed under the relief act.
It also says if it were to happen it more than likely would come from admin. Trump called out Doctors.

Even if it’s happening Trump set up the payment system and should have required better confirmation of coding. So it’s all his fault. :lol:

He makes this claim because it’s exactly what he would have done if he was in that position.

Hence projection.

It’s similar to what he did with taxes.

Hence confession.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by SeattleGriz »

kalm wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:05 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:47 am

First, I just did with the UW Medicare example. While UW was committing fraud, they did it through the usage of ICD10 codes that paid out at a higher rate. That is what is happening here - using an ICD10 code that pays at a higher rate.
https://magazine.washington.edu/uw-pays ... ud-claims/

Secondly, if you don't think a doctor is going to use a code that pays more money when they are allowed, then you don't understand business. There is nothing wrong with the doctors getting paid more, especially if the code is warranted. You can bet the pay out will be reviewed by the government and possibly be changed, although the medical community will howl like they always do if payouts are lowered.

You got nothing here, but here you go. USA Today no less.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fac ... 000638001/



By the way, it was the author that was projecting.
We had Covid 15 years ago? Was Rick Scott in charge of UW Medicine?

The USA Today article provides no CURRENT evidence. It does say this...
There have been no public reports that hospitals are exaggerating COVID-19 numbers to receive higher Medicare payments.

Jensen didn't explicitly make that claim. He simply suggested there is an "avenue" to do so now that "plausible" COVID-19, not just laboratory-confirmed, cases can be greenlighted for Medicare payment and eligible for the 20% add-on allowed under the relief act.
It also says if it were to happen it more than likely would come from admin. Trump called out Doctors.

Even if it’s happening Trump set up the payment system and should have required better confirmation of coding. So it’s all his fault. :lol:

He makes this claim because it’s exactly what he would have done if he was in that position.

Hence projection.

It’s similar to what he did with taxes.

Hence confession.
:ohno:
Our ruling: True
We rate the claim that hospitals get paid more if patients are listed as COVID-19 and on ventilators as TRUE.

Hospitals and doctors do get paid more for Medicare patients diagnosed with COVID-19 or if it's considered presumed they have COVID-19 absent a laboratory-confirmed test, and three times more if the patients are placed on a ventilator to cover the cost of care and loss of business resulting from a shift in focus to treat COVID-19 cases.
Granted, I should have left the UW example out as it related to fraud, because I wasn't going for that angle. I was going for how the billing system works. I also stated that doctors will use the code, and rightly so, if it is warranted.

Let me ask you a simple question. If you can honestly charge someone more to golf on your course, will you do that? Or will you charge them the lesser fee...especially if it isn't coming out of their pockets? That is all that is going on here and Trump is right. Doctors and hospitals get more money for a COVID diagnosis. You would think the system would actually WANT the doctors to get paid more so they can adequately capture all the ICD10s and add it to their data. That was why I also mentioned that the government would most likely look at the payout of COVID and possibly change it next year.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by kalm »

SeattleGriz wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:19 am
kalm wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:05 am

We had Covid 15 years ago? Was Rick Scott in charge of UW Medicine?

The USA Today article provides no CURRENT evidence. It does say this...



It also says if it were to happen it more than likely would come from admin. Trump called out Doctors.

Even if it’s happening Trump set up the payment system and should have required better confirmation of coding. So it’s all his fault. :lol:

He makes this claim because it’s exactly what he would have done if he was in that position.

Hence projection.

It’s similar to what he did with taxes.

Hence confession.
:ohno:
Our ruling: True
We rate the claim that hospitals get paid more if patients are listed as COVID-19 and on ventilators as TRUE.

Hospitals and doctors do get paid more for Medicare patients diagnosed with COVID-19 or if it's considered presumed they have COVID-19 absent a laboratory-confirmed test, and three times more if the patients are placed on a ventilator to cover the cost of care and loss of business resulting from a shift in focus to treat COVID-19 cases.
Granted, I should have left the UW example out as it related to fraud, because I wasn't going for that angle. I was going for how the billing system works. I also stated that doctors will use the code, and rightly so, if it is warranted.

Let me ask you a simple question. If you can honestly charge someone more to golf on your course, will you do that? Or will you charge them the lesser fee...especially if it isn't coming out of their pockets? That is all that is going on here and Trump is right. Doctors and hospitals get more money for a COVID diagnosis. You would think the system would actually WANT the doctors to get paid more so they can adequately capture all the ICD10s and add it to their data. That was why I also mentioned that the government would most likely look at the payout of COVID and possibly change it next year.
So we agree then that Trump is a colossal asshole for accusing doctors of fraud and that no evidence of this happening is available.

Thank you.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by SeattleGriz »

kalm wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:38 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:19 am

:ohno:



Granted, I should have left the UW example out as it related to fraud, because I wasn't going for that angle. I was going for how the billing system works. I also stated that doctors will use the code, and rightly so, if it is warranted.

Let me ask you a simple question. If you can honestly charge someone more to golf on your course, will you do that? Or will you charge them the lesser fee...especially if it isn't coming out of their pockets? That is all that is going on here and Trump is right. Doctors and hospitals get more money for a COVID diagnosis. You would think the system would actually WANT the doctors to get paid more so they can adequately capture all the ICD10s and add it to their data. That was why I also mentioned that the government would most likely look at the payout of COVID and possibly change it next year.
So we agree then that Trump is a colossal asshole for accusing doctors of fraud and that no evidence of this happening is available.

Thank you.
No, but we can see you are pulling a huge Michael Mann-esque cognitive dissonance move here.

Doctor's ARE getting paid more for a COVID diagnosis, and with loose initial cause of death guidelines, are being incentivized to choose COVID as a cause of death.

It's not the doctor's fault and the full Trump quote conveys that. It's our system.

You're welcome.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:38 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:19 am
:ohno:

Granted, I should have left the UW example out as it related to fraud, because I wasn't going for that angle. I was going for how the billing system works. I also stated that doctors will use the code, and rightly so, if it is warranted.

Let me ask you a simple question. If you can honestly charge someone more to golf on your course, will you do that? Or will you charge them the lesser fee...especially if it isn't coming out of their pockets? That is all that is going on here and Trump is right. Doctors and hospitals get more money for a COVID diagnosis. You would think the system would actually WANT the doctors to get paid more so they can adequately capture all the ICD10s and add it to their data. That was why I also mentioned that the government would most likely look at the payout of COVID and possibly change it next year.
So we agree then that Trump is a colossal asshole for accusing doctors of fraud and that no evidence of this happening is available.

Thank you.
Are administrators instructing doctors to select COVID as COD when possible? Probably.

Trump is a colossal asshole for a variety of reasons.

Trump accusing doctors (or anyone) of fraud is ironic.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by Baldy »

Outnumbered by Trump supporters, Biden cancels his "tour of Texas". :lol:

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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by BDKJMU »

Baldy wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:54 am Outnumbered by Trump supporters, Biden cancels his "tour of Texas". :lol:

:lol:
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by SeattleGriz »

UNI88 wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:32 am
kalm wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:38 am

So we agree then that Trump is a colossal asshole for accusing doctors of fraud and that no evidence of this happening is available.

Thank you.
Are administrators instructing doctors to select COVID as COD when possible? Probably.

Trump is a colossal asshole for a variety of reasons.

Trump accusing doctors (or anyone) of fraud is ironic.

Here is the whole quote for context. He didn't accuse doctors of fraud. He stated a fact.
“You know in Germany,” he told a crowd in Waterford Township, Michigan, “if you have a bad heart and you’re ready to die or if you have cancer and you’re going to be dying soon, and you catch COVID, that happens we mark it down to COVID. You know our doctors get more money if somebody dies from COVID, you know that, right. I mean our doctors are very smart people. So what they do is they say is, I’m but you know sorry everybody dies of COVID. But in Germany and other places, if you have a heart attack or you have cancer, you’re terminally ill, you catch COVID, they say you died of cancer, you died of a heart attack. With us, when in doubt, choose COVID. It’s true, no it’s true. No, they’ll say, Oh it’s terrible what he said, but it’s true. It’s like $2,000 more. So you get more money. This could only happen to us.”
If you are intellectually honest, you can see Trump is bemoaning the fact that we have incentivized COVID diagnosis with our medical community. While I'm fine with this, he is simply pointing out how the uninformed keep trying to nail him on COVID deaths, because there are many factors the average person does not understand.

For example, what constitutes a COVID death? Do you know without looking it up?

Here is an article about the disparity in COVID deaths around the World.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectious ... id19/86527
Another possible explanation is that countries define and report COVID-19-related deaths differently, and those methods changed over time. In the early phases of the epidemic in mainland China, the first few versions of case definition required that up to six criteria needed to be met, which probably underestimated cases by five-fold. As of April 14, 2020, the new CDC guidelines include counting both confirmed and probable cases, which depended on doctors' judgment based on symptoms and contact history. The attribution of cause of death to COVID-19 probably varies by country, especially since most of these deaths occur in people with chronic illnesses.
Why do you think I keep asking the question of Gil and Klam what constitutes a COVID death or even a case? You need to compare apples to apples on that front, but the Libs keep trying to use it as a means to hammer Trump.
Last edited by SeattleGriz on Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by Skjellyfetti »

:roll:

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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by SeattleGriz »

Skjellyfetti wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:33 pm :roll:

There are no partisan judges. The Left applauded Roberts when he said such a thing.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by SDHornet »

BDKJMU wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:29 am
Baldy wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:54 am Outnumbered by Trump supporters, Biden cancels his "tour of Texas". :lol:

:lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: But Texas is in play or something. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by AZGrizFan »

Jesus. That guy might have the biggest vagina on the planet.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by UNI88 »

SeattleGriz wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:46 pm
UNI88 wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:32 am

Are administrators instructing doctors to select COVID as COD when possible? Probably.

Trump is a colossal asshole for a variety of reasons.

Trump accusing doctors (or anyone) of fraud is ironic.

Here is the whole quote for context. He didn't accuse doctors of fraud. He stated a fact.
“You know in Germany,” he told a crowd in Waterford Township, Michigan, “if you have a bad heart and you’re ready to die or if you have cancer and you’re going to be dying soon, and you catch COVID, that happens we mark it down to COVID. You know our doctors get more money if somebody dies from COVID, you know that, right. I mean our doctors are very smart people. So what they do is they say is, I’m but you know sorry everybody dies of COVID. But in Germany and other places, if you have a heart attack or you have cancer, you’re terminally ill, you catch COVID, they say you died of cancer, you died of a heart attack. With us, when in doubt, choose COVID. It’s true, no it’s true. No, they’ll say, Oh it’s terrible what he said, but it’s true. It’s like $2,000 more. So you get more money. This could only happen to us.”
If you are intellectually honest, you can see Trump is bemoaning the fact that we have incentivized COVID diagnosis with our medical community. While I'm fine with this, he is simply pointing out how the uninformed keep trying to nail him on COVID deaths, because there are many factors the average person does not understand.

For example, what constitutes a COVID death? Do you know without looking it up?

Here is an article about the disparity in COVID deaths around the World.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectious ... id19/86527
Another possible explanation is that countries define and report COVID-19-related deaths differently, and those methods changed over time. In the early phases of the epidemic in mainland China, the first few versions of case definition required that up to six criteria needed to be met, which probably underestimated cases by five-fold. As of April 14, 2020, the new CDC guidelines include counting both confirmed and probable cases, which depended on doctors' judgment based on symptoms and contact history. The attribution of cause of death to COVID-19 probably varies by country, especially since most of these deaths occur in people with chronic illnesses.
Why do you think I keep asking the question of Gil and Klam what constitutes a COVID death or even a case? You need to compare apples to apples on that front, but the Libs keep trying to use it as a means to hammer Trump.
I don't doubt that healthcare administrators are pushing doctors to list COVID as the cause if a patient dies with COVID.

If you are intellectually honest, you can see the irony of Trump bemoaning anyone playing fast and loose with the rules in order to increase their profits.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by SeattleGriz »

UNI88 wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:35 pm
SeattleGriz wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:46 pm


Here is the whole quote for context. He didn't accuse doctors of fraud. He stated a fact.



If you are intellectually honest, you can see Trump is bemoaning the fact that we have incentivized COVID diagnosis with our medical community. While I'm fine with this, he is simply pointing out how the uninformed keep trying to nail him on COVID deaths, because there are many factors the average person does not understand.

For example, what constitutes a COVID death? Do you know without looking it up?

Here is an article about the disparity in COVID deaths around the World.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectious ... id19/86527



Why do you think I keep asking the question of Gil and Klam what constitutes a COVID death or even a case? You need to compare apples to apples on that front, but the Libs keep trying to use it as a means to hammer Trump.
I don't doubt that healthcare administrators are pushing doctors to list COVID as the cause if a patient dies with COVID.

If you are intellectually honest, you can see the irony of Trump bemoaning anyone playing fast and loose with the rules in order to increase their profits.
I have to disagree. Trump is saying that we are incentivizing the death toll and we are, but unfortunately it needs to be done to capture all COVID data. It's all about the death toll and he is right.

I suppose the difference in understanding is how you view him. I know I have people that I know, that no matter what they say pisses me off.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by UNI88 »

SeattleGriz wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:39 pm
UNI88 wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:35 pm

I don't doubt that healthcare administrators are pushing doctors to list COVID as the cause if a patient dies with COVID.

If you are intellectually honest, you can see the irony of Trump bemoaning anyone playing fast and loose with the rules in order to increase their profits.
I have to disagree. Trump is saying that we are incentivizing the death toll and we are, but unfortunately it needs to be done to capture all COVID data. It's all about the death toll and he is right.

I suppose the difference in understanding is how you view him. I know I have people that I know, that no matter what they say pisses me off.
He was a NYC property developer, he's as crooked as the day is long and has been playing fast and loose with the rules in order to increase his profits since his daddy first bankrolled him. Whatever his net worth really is, a huge chunk of it came from playing fast and loose with the rules and screwing people out of their earnings. The irony in this case equals hypocrisy on Trump's part.
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Re: 2020 General Election

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“Tolerance and Apathy are the last virtues of a dying society.” Aristotle

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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by SeattleGriz »

UNI88 wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:43 pm
SeattleGriz wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:39 pm

I have to disagree. Trump is saying that we are incentivizing the death toll and we are, but unfortunately it needs to be done to capture all COVID data. It's all about the death toll and he is right.

I suppose the difference in understanding is how you view him. I know I have people that I know, that no matter what they say pisses me off.
He was a NYC property developer, he's as crooked as the day is long and has been playing fast and loose with the rules in order to increase his profits since his daddy first bankrolled him. Whatever his net worth really is, a huge chunk of it came from playing fast and loose with the rules and screwing people out of their earnings. The irony in this case equals hypocrisy on Trump's part.
Sorry bro. Still can't agree. Now if Trump would have said the doctors were perpetrating fraud, you would be correct, but he wasn't.

He was saying only in America do we pay our medical providers to make our country look inept. You really think the US sucks as bad at Covid-19 as our stats show?

He IS making a big deal out of us trying to capture all COVID related ICD10s, but if it was any other President, the Left and the press wouldn't be so apoplectic over shit that has NEVER been politicized like this.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by Skjellyfetti »

SeattleGriz wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:58 pm if it was any other President, the Left and the press wouldn't be so apoplectic over shit that has NEVER been politicized like this.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by JohnStOnge »

This morning as I was making coffee I thought occurred to me: I am an example of the Russians being successful. Never before have I worried about an election being tainted by shenanigans. Now I am. My honest impression is that a substantial majority of US citizens do not want Trump as President. I think that if we had a relatively normal election where everybody that wanted to vote did so and had their votes counted Biden would win the popular vote by a substantial margin and win the electoral vote by a comfortable margin.

But I am honestly worried about Republicans being successful in various voter suppression efforts and efforts to avoid counting mail in ballots in key areas.

In countries where both sides were honest this mail in ballot issue would never have come up. Greater reliance on mail in ballots makes perfect sense under these circumstances. Counting ballots after election day if they were postmarked by election day also makes perfect sense. But Republicans are fighting mail in voting all over the place and fighting efforts to count votes cast by election day.

The reason is obvious: Polls show that Democrats are far more likely to vote by mail. It is a transparent effort to suppress the Democrat vote. Extremely dishonest. Extremely corrupt.

I hope I live long enough to see the tipping point that is inevitably coming. I'm talking about the point at which the changing demographics and the generations that are younger now grow a little oldr while the ones that tend to support Trump die off. The Republican Party is a filthy, corrupt institution and the point at which it becomes largely irrelevant cannot come soon enough.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?

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JohnStOnge
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by JohnStOnge »

Just as some added thought on the future:

There is a common perception that people tend to vote Democrat when they are young then vote Republican as they grow older. There may be some of that. But if it exists it is not as dramatic a phenomenon as most believe.

In 1980, the 18 through 44 age group voted for Reagan over Carter by 50% to 41% (Anderson was a fairly significant 3rd Party factor).

The source I use isn't broken down in a way to allow me to look at 18 through 44 in 1984. But the 18 through 49 age group voted by Reagan by 58% to 42%.

In 1988, the 18 through 44 age group voted for Bush over Dukakis by 54% to 46%.

It's not like that now. 18 through 44 year old respondents to the YouGov poll at https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/nzc8dt85gn/ ... Report.pdf said they plan to vote for Biden over Trump by a 64% to 21% margin. Republicans who don't realize that the clock is ticking with respect to their tenure as a relevant force nationally are kidding themselves. That is UNLESS they do something to significantly change the perception of them among non Whites and/or people in the current younger generations.

Many of the older people who tend to vote Republican now are people who voted Republicans when they were young voters during the 1980s. The younger generation moving up now is very, very different.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?

Deep Purple: No One Came
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