2020 General Election

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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by GannonFan »

This idea that fraud doesn't exist and it never has is ludicrous. Do people not read history books anymore? It was commonplace in Texas in the 40's and the 50's for parties to "hold back" votes to see how the election was going, and then to release votes as needed to push their candidate over the top. LBJ lost an election in this way, and then got better at the process and won his next election doing the same thing. No one really disputes that JFK won the presidency based on manipulated voting in Chicago in 1960. But even with those pretty well known event, there's also never been an exhaustive journalistic review to detail how that fraud was committed. Again, if we don't spend the time and money to unearth the fraud, is that enough to say that fraud doesn't exist? How naïve are people?

NPR had a good segment on yesterday, although I think it didn't carry the message they wanted to send entirely. They were doing a segment on how secure and fraud-proof mail-in voting is, so they brought on the Lt governor from Utah. Utah's been doing statewide mail-in voting for roughly 90%-95% of the state's population for about a decade now. Being a fairly GOP-leaning state, part of the intent to was rebut Trump's whining that mail-in voting can lead to fraud.

But the guy from Utah was pretty clear that while the system in Utah works, it wasn't something slapped together in 2-3 months in the middle of a pandemic. They started with local elections, and when everyone was comfortable with that they moved to larger ones until all elections in the state were done almost exclusively by mail. Every registered voter gets sent a ballot. You can track online where your ballot is, both before you get it and after you mail it back. Every signature is verified with one on file and if there's any question the voter is called in to election offices to verify their ballot. There's regular culling of the voting rolls to remove people who have died or moved or are otherwise ineligible. It all works pretty well, but then again, they've been doing it for a decade and they worked themselves up to it.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by kalm »

Goldman Sachs and Moody’s both predict a quicker economic recovery if there’s a blue wave.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/06/business ... cOmTsrkM-4
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:07 am Goldman Sachs and Moody’s both predict a quicker economic recovery if there’s a blue wave.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/06/business ... cOmTsrkM-4
Is it good to have Goldman Sachs in your corner? I thought they were persona non gratis?
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by Baldy »

kalm wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:25 am
Baldy wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:56 am
We all know we can trust some "FBI guy", right? :lol:

Mailing official ballots to untold thousands of dead people, people who have moved out of state, people who are in prison, people who aren't old enough to vote, etc. kicks open the door for fraud on a grand scale.

Benson: 6,400 Michigan absentee ballots rejected for late arrival


The above article shows thousands of cases of voter fraud in itself, and it was only a primary. The scary part is that these are just the instances that were caught. How many were missed? The margin of victory was just over 10,000 votes in the last election.
Where’s the fraud?
:lol:

Dead people attempting to vote isn't fraud? :?
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by Baldy »

Ibanez wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:30 am
Baldy wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:56 am
We all know we can trust some "FBI guy", right? :lol:

Mailing official ballots to untold thousands of dead people, people who have moved out of state, people who are in prison, people who aren't old enough to vote, etc. kicks open the door for fraud on a grand scale.

Benson: 6,400 Michigan absentee ballots rejected for late arrival


The above article shows thousands of cases of voter fraud in itself, and it was only a primary. The scary part is that these are just the instances that were caught. How many were missed? The margin of victory was just over 10,000 votes in the last election.
I'm actually reading that Benson's office is scrutinizing the ballots and providing the oversight required to ensure a fair election.

I get the point of validating voter rolls to prevent fraud and abuse and that should be done. But it sounds like Benson is doing everything he can, and succeeding, in preventing that fraud from counting.
It looks like her office is trying its best to stop these shenanigans. The troubling question is, how many did they miss?
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by Baldy »

kalm wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:07 am Goldman Sachs and Moody’s both predict a quicker economic recovery if there’s a blue wave.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/06/business ... cOmTsrkM-4
Of course they did. A Biden administration would be filled to the brim with present and former Goldman Sachs employees. :lol:
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by Ibanez »

Baldy wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:11 am
Ibanez wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:30 am I'm actually reading that Benson's office is scrutinizing the ballots and providing the oversight required to ensure a fair election.

I get the point of validating voter rolls to prevent fraud and abuse and that should be done. But it sounds like Benson is doing everything he can, and succeeding, in preventing that fraud from counting.
It looks like her office is trying its best to stop these shenanigans. The troubling question is, how many did they miss?
Hopefully not too many more. The article details them catching approx. 5500 ballots. It's a good start. :thumb:

Republicans and Democrats will always game the system and try to cheat.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by GannonFan »

Ibanez wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:23 am
Baldy wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:11 am
It looks like her office is trying its best to stop these shenanigans. The troubling question is, how many did they miss?
Hopefully not too many more. The article details them catching approx. 5500 ballots. It's a good start. :thumb:

Republicans and Democrats will always game the system and try to cheat.
As I said somewhere else, in states where vote by mail has been the standard for years hopefully they've honed the system to be pretty good at it. The places that are worrisome are the places where there's been almost no vote by mail, or very limited, and now they are opening the floodgates with barely a couple of months of preparation. There's no doubt that there will be significant chaos in this election and both sides will do their best to use it to their benefit. That's the problem with politics, it's full of politicians.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by SeattleGriz »

Less than 261 votes separated the Governor of Washington in 2004. Republican won the initial count and the first recount, but then more ballots were found for the Democrat and she overtook on the final recount.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by Ibanez »

SeattleGriz wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:43 am Less than 261 votes separated the Governor of Washington in 2004. Republican won the initial count and the first recount, but then more ballots were found for the Democrat and she overtook on the final recount.
Were the "found" votes thought to be fraudulent? If not, then it seems that every vote was counted and the people got what they voted for.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by UNI88 »

Ibanez wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:23 am
Baldy wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:11 am
It looks like her office is trying its best to stop these shenanigans. The troubling question is, how many did they miss?
Hopefully not too many more. The article details them catching approx. 5500 ballots. It's a good start. :thumb:

Republicans and Democrats will always game the system and try to cheat.
This. Republicans try to suppress voting by groups that will vote against them while Democrats try to allow illegal voting by groups (non-citizens, dead people, etc.) that will vote for them. They both engage in gerrymandering if allowed and I would guess that they both harvest votes when it's advantageous.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by GannonFan »

UNI88 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:49 am
Ibanez wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:23 am
Hopefully not too many more. The article details them catching approx. 5500 ballots. It's a good start. :thumb:

Republicans and Democrats will always game the system and try to cheat.
This. Republicans try to suppress voting by groups that will vote against them while Democrats try to allow illegal voting by groups (non-citizens, dead people, etc.) that will vote for them. They both engage in gerrymandering if allowed and I would guess that they both harvest votes when it's advantageous.
The ballot harvesting is the one I'd be most worried about. Just a huge unknown of what happens when that occurs. Having someone else in control of another person's ballot is just ripe for malfeasance. That's the easiest one to not allow and that would go a long way to preventing fraud (especially since you probably couldn't tell if fraud happened or not). There's no reason why ballot harvesting even needs to happen.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by SeattleGriz »

Ibanez wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:25 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:43 am Less than 261 votes separated the Governor of Washington in 2004. Republican won the initial count and the first recount, but then more ballots were found for the Democrat and she overtook on the final recount.
Were the "found" votes thought to be fraudulent? If not, then it seems that every vote was counted and the people got what they voted for.
Well, when they "found" votes on 13 separate occasions that benefitted the Dem candidate and there were more ballots cast that registered voters you wonder.

But, pretty much everyone involved the process want designed to handle the problem effectively.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by kalm »

Baldy wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:14 am
kalm wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:07 am Goldman Sachs and Moody’s both predict a quicker economic recovery if there’s a blue wave.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/06/business ... cOmTsrkM-4
Of course they did. A Biden administration would be filled to the brim with present and former Goldman Sachs employees. :lol:
Good thing Trump doesn’t have any. :thumb:
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by BDKJMU »

kalm wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:07 am Goldman Sachs and Moody’s both predict a quicker economic recovery if there’s a blue wave.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/06/business ... cOmTsrkM-4
Well, Goldman Sachs is talking out both sides of their arse, because a week ago they were saying a divided govt was the best outcome for the markets.
https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/sto ... dman-sachs
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by 89Hen »

kalm wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:07 am a blue wave
I'm on record here as saying it really doesn't matter who is in power, my life isn't really impacted that much. For the first time in my life, I'm having doubts about that. If a blue wave were to happen and the Dems win the WH and Senate, I am fearful that we could have a MASSIVE change in our government. Elimination of the filibuster, packing the court and adding 2-3 more blue "states" are all on the table according to the Dem leaders. IF that were to happen, we're toast as a country. I'd say the same if the R's did it, so this isn't because of it's the other side. The only thing worse than the two party system would be a one party system. :werd:
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by UNI88 »

89Hen wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:06 pm
kalm wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:07 am a blue wave
I'm on record here as saying it really doesn't matter who is in power, my life isn't really impacted that much. For the first time in my life, I'm having doubts about that. If a blue wave were to happen and the Dems win the WH and Senate, I am fearful that we could have a MASSIVE change in our government. Elimination of the filibuster, packing the court and adding 2-3 more blue "states" are all on the table according to the Dem leaders. IF that were to happen, we're toast as a country. I'd say the same if the R's did it, so this isn't because of it's the other side. The only thing worse than the two party system would be a one party system. :werd:
:nod:
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Re: 2020 General Election

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GannonFan wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:52 am This idea that fraud doesn't exist and it never has is ludicrous. Do people not read history books anymore? It was commonplace in Texas in the 40's and the 50's for parties to "hold back" votes to see how the election was going, and then to release votes as needed to push their candidate over the top. LBJ lost an election in this way, and then got better at the process and won his next election doing the same thing. No one really disputes that JFK won the presidency based on manipulated voting in Chicago in 1960. But even with those pretty well known event, there's also never been an exhaustive journalistic review to detail how that fraud was committed. Again, if we don't spend the time and money to unearth the fraud, is that enough to say that fraud doesn't exist? How naïve are people?
We are not in the 1960s. The Republican Party has put quite a bit of time and effort into trying to show voter fraud. Voter fraud is not a significant issue in today's context.

BTW I got a google hit on a Washington Post article saying that the idea that Kennedy won Illinois because of voter fraud is a myth. But I can't link it because i'd have to get a subscription to do so. And I'm not going to get a subscription just so I can link that article.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by JohnStOnge »

On voter suppression: Kind of a different angle but I heard this on NPR today. Maine has "instant runoff" voting. The main focus was on there being 4 Senate candidates and, in Maine, people can go ahead and vote Independents as 1 without worrying about wasting their votes because they can rank a major party candidate 2. So if nobody wins >50% of the vote those who voted for an independent will have their vote for 2 counted.

But here is the rub: They are also doing it for the Presidential election. And guess who is opposing allowing that. Can you guess?

Of course you can. It's the State's Republican Party.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:21 pm
89Hen wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:06 pm

I'm on record here as saying it really doesn't matter who is in power, my life isn't really impacted that much. For the first time in my life, I'm having doubts about that. If a blue wave were to happen and the Dems win the WH and Senate, I am fearful that we could have a MASSIVE change in our government. Elimination of the filibuster, packing the court and adding 2-3 more blue "states" are all on the table according to the Dem leaders. IF that were to happen, we're toast as a country. I'd say the same if the R's did it, so this isn't because of it's the other side. The only thing worse than the two party system would be a one party system. :werd:
:nod:
Agree to an extent and gridlock is good in general. But I think you’ll see complaints of being a one party system owned by monied interests again soon.

And for ‘88, fears of our imminent commie takeover might be a little exaggerated.

Regarding the economics, all GS and Moody’s are suggesting is what other countries are already doing to recover like infrastructure spending and more stimulus. Debt concerns aside, those measures typically pay for themselves and have proven to create quicker and sustainable economic recoveries.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:58 pm
UNI88 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:21 pm
:nod:
Agree to an extent and gridlock is good in general. But I think you’ll see complaints of being a one party system owned by monied interests again soon.

And for ‘88, fears of our imminent commie takeover might be a little exaggerated.

Regarding the economics, all GS and Moody’s are suggesting is what other countries are already doing to recover like infrastructure spending and more stimulus. Debt concerns aside, those measures typically pay for themselves and have proven to create quicker and sustainable economic recoveries.
Maybe a little exaggerated but not quite as exaggerated as the fears that Trump is a fascist. :-P

I'm all for true infrastructure investment spending. Just don't throw a sh!t ton of money to your union supporters to shovel asphalt into potholes like Obama did for his stimulus.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by Ibanez »

89Hen wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:06 pm
kalm wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:07 am a blue wave
I'm on record here as saying it really doesn't matter who is in power, my life isn't really impacted that much. For the first time in my life, I'm having doubts about that. If a blue wave were to happen and the Dems win the WH and Senate, I am fearful that we could have a MASSIVE change in our government. Elimination of the filibuster, packing the court and adding 2-3 more blue "states" are all on the table according to the Dem leaders. IF that were to happen, we're toast as a country. I'd say the same if the R's did it, so this isn't because of it's the other side. The only thing worse than the two party system would be a one party system. :werd:
:lol: I don't disagree.

However - some states might be less red after all this. It looks like all the Yankees are turning SC blue. It's not quite there but with Graham in dire straits and Trump only up about 5% over Biden (with a 2.9% margin)...things aren't looking rosy in the Palmetto State.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by AZGrizFan »

Ibanez wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:38 am
89Hen wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:06 pm

I'm on record here as saying it really doesn't matter who is in power, my life isn't really impacted that much. For the first time in my life, I'm having doubts about that. If a blue wave were to happen and the Dems win the WH and Senate, I am fearful that we could have a MASSIVE change in our government. Elimination of the filibuster, packing the court and adding 2-3 more blue "states" are all on the table according to the Dem leaders. IF that were to happen, we're toast as a country. I'd say the same if the R's did it, so this isn't because of it's the other side. The only thing worse than the two party system would be a one party system. :werd:
:lol: I don't disagree.

However - some states might be less red after all this. It looks like all the Yankees are turning SC blue. It's not quite there but with Graham in dire straits and Trump only up about 5% over Biden (with a 2.9% margin)...things aren't looking rosy in the Palmetto State.
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by AZGrizFan »

UNI88 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:49 am
Ibanez wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:23 am
Hopefully not too many more. The article details them catching approx. 5500 ballots. It's a good start. :thumb:

Republicans and Democrats will always game the system and try to cheat.
This. Republicans try to suppress voting by groups that will vote against them while Democrats try to allow illegal voting by groups (non-citizens, dead people, etc.) that will vote for them. They both engage in gerrymandering if allowed and I would guess that they both harvest votes when it's advantageous.
:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:

But according to JSO it's just the evil R's that do it. :roll: :roll:
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Re: 2020 General Election

Post by Ibanez »

AZGrizFan wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:57 am
UNI88 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:49 am

This. Republicans try to suppress voting by groups that will vote against them while Democrats try to allow illegal voting by groups (non-citizens, dead people, etc.) that will vote for them. They both engage in gerrymandering if allowed and I would guess that they both harvest votes when it's advantageous.
:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:

But according to JSO it's just the evil R's that do it. :roll: :roll:
JSO is wrong. I'm right. :) They both are liars, cheats and sneaky sneaks bastards.
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