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isn't this question really at the very center of it all? Why do some groups have more wealth than others or more single moms or more incarceration or drug use or worse health? We don't talk about this because enough people see it as self-evident racism creates it and have made it socially unacceptable for anyone to give any other explanation.

BTW, if you want to suggest racism creates disparities you have to have a good explanation for why a small ethnic minority that was persecuted for millennia and was rounded up for extermination across a continent less than a century ago has as much influence and wealth collectively as they have today in America. The only response I've ever seen to that question is to suggest it's offensive to even ask about them (or to bring up Chinese or Korean-Americans).

There have been a plethora of studies on this. There is a human bias, sometimes intentional, sometimes unintentional. For some reason a lot of people don't want to believe it exist, but then they go on spouting off myths about different races, myths that do not exist.

Parenting

89Hen wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:46 amParenting

That’s a damn fine one word answer.

89Hen wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:46 amParenting

I remember reading once that when you control for single motherhood the black-white incarceration gap disappears. But I bet you can't even say that today.

There is something to be said for having a stable(ish) family. Most studies show that the best determinant if a person will graduate from college with a degree is if they have two parents still together. Every variant after that (divorce, death, etc) and the success rate for graduating college decreases. If you tie having a college degree with being more able to be economically successful (which I don't think is terribly controversial) then that starts to be a big deal.

89Hen wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:46 amParenting

This plus starting point.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:39 am

89Hen wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:46 amParenting

This plus starting point.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:39 am

89Hen wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:46 amParenting

This plus starting point.

I think to a lesser extent. I had tons of friends who came from well off families who ended up being complete fuck ups because their parents didn't parent. My parents didn't have squat but provided a stable home for me because they sacrificed and worked hard. They read to me, made me do my homework, had a bed time for me, rules on going out about calling to update if I was going to be late (obviously pre-cell days it was a challenge)... even to having at least a weekly call while I was at UD to check in.

89Hen wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:47 am

UNI88 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:39 am
This plus starting point.

I think to a lesser extent. I had tons of friends who came from well off families who ended up being complete fuck ups because their parents didn't parent. My parents didn't have squat but provided a stable home for me because they sacrificed and worked hard. They read to me, made me do my homework, had a bed time for me, rules on going out about calling to update if I was going to be late (obviously pre-cell days it was a challenge)... even to having at least a weekly call while I was at UD to check in.

How far did those complete fuck ups fall? It's harder to achieve social and economic success when you start with very little. The odds are you're living in a poor neighborhood with poor schools and the peer pressure to be cool and not too smart is greater than in middle and upper class schools. Parents and kids in those areas also tend to not have as much confidence in the system and hope for the future so there is a "why bother" mentality. The kids with parents who care and hold them to a higher standard do have a significantly better chance of making something of themselves.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:15 am

89Hen wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:47 am

I think to a lesser extent. I had tons of friends who came from well off families who ended up being complete fuck ups because their parents didn't parent. My parents didn't have squat but provided a stable home for me because they sacrificed and worked hard. They read to me, made me do my homework, had a bed time for me, rules on going out about calling to update if I was going to be late (obviously pre-cell days it was a challenge)... even to having at least a weekly call while I was at UD to check in.

How far did those complete fuck ups fall? It's harder to achieve social and economic success when you start with very little. The odds are you're living in a poor neighborhood with poor schools and the peer pressure to be cool and not too smart is greater than in middle and upper class schools. Parents and kids in those areas also tend to not have as much confidence in the system and hope for the future so there is a "why bother" mentality. The kids with parents who care and hold them to a higher standard do have a significantly better chance of making something of themselves.

I grew up in a trailer AND went to a shitty little school! . Nine kids in my senior class.

SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:21 am

UNI88 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:15 am

How far did those complete fuck ups fall? It's harder to achieve social and economic success when you start with very little. The odds are you're living in a poor neighborhood with poor schools and the peer pressure to be cool and not too smart is greater than in middle and upper class schools. Parents and kids in those areas also tend to not have as much confidence in the system and hope for the future so there is a "why bother" mentality. The kids with parents who care and hold them to a higher standard do have a significantly better chance of making something of themselves.

I grew up in a trailer AND went to a shitty little school! . Nine kids in my senior class.

I grew up Italian. I'm still Italian and haven't grown up much.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:15 am How far did those complete fuck ups fall? It's harder to achieve social and economic success when you start with very little. The odds are you're living in a poor neighborhood with poor schools and the peer pressure to be cool and not too smart is greater than in middle and upper class schools. Parents and kids in those areas also tend to not have as much confidence in the system and hope for the future so there is a "why bother" mentality. The kids with parents who care and hold them to a higher standard do have a significantly better chance of making something of themselves.

Believe me, I wasn't trying to dismiss the starting point entirely. I just think strong parenting is a much better predictor of success. It's also not a one generation thing. Nothing > Something > Everything. I've seen it go the other way too.

89Hen wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:29 am

UNI88 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:15 am How far did those complete fuck ups fall? It's harder to achieve social and economic success when you start with very little. The odds are you're living in a poor neighborhood with poor schools and the peer pressure to be cool and not too smart is greater than in middle and upper class schools. Parents and kids in those areas also tend to not have as much confidence in the system and hope for the future so there is a "why bother" mentality. The kids with parents who care and hold them to a higher standard do have a significantly better chance of making something of themselves.

Believe me, I wasn't trying to dismiss the starting point entirely. I just think strong parenting is a much better predictor of success. It's also not a one generation thing. Nothing > Something > Everything. I've seen it go the other way too.

I know you weren't and I wasn't saying that starting point means more than parenting. It is possible to succeed despite lacking in one or the other but it's much more difficult to do well if you lack both. I know that PTA participation was lower in the district that I taught in then it was in neighboring, more wealthy districts. It was/is a double whammy, the kids were from poorer families and their parents didn't want to be involved.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:14 pm It was/is a double whammy, the kids were from poorer families and their parents didn't want to be involved.

Recipe for disaster.