Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by 89Hen »

∞∞∞ wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:08 am
89Hen wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:02 am


:lol: America's engineers... true heroes.
Like I said, there's a reason people are protesting the police and the majority of Americans want reforms. If you want a free society, you can't be shocked when people are angry their freedoms are being threatened. As they stand, the police are a threat to freedom. :twocents:
Or police protect freedom. All depends on your political view I guess.
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by ∞∞∞ »

Winterborn wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:05 am
∞∞∞ wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:01 am


Exactly. I respect my profession 'cause it requires years of academia and training, layers of oversight, and is heavily regulated 'cause we also have the ability to kill people. There's a reason people are protesting the police and not engineers.
And yet this still happens.

Catastrophic failures will always happen; it's the tragic reality of humanity and complex systems. But we investigate, learn, and punish those that didn't take their responsibility to safety seriously. Engineers - nor any career - has the luxury of qualified immunity.

Cops can be violent and if they get in trouble, grift their way to another department.

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by ∞∞∞ »

89Hen wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:13 am
∞∞∞ wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:08 am


Like I said, there's a reason people are protesting the police and the majority of Americans want reforms. If you want a free society, you can't be shocked when people are angry their freedoms are being threatened. As they stand, the police are a threat to freedom. :twocents:
Or police protect freedom. All depends on your political view I guess.
Sure, that's the case with everything.

Ultimately, democracy will prevail. It already has in some places, and I guess we'll find out in November if it will at the federal level.

If not in the next cycle, I wouldn't bet police won't face major national reforms in the next decade.

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by 89Hen »

∞∞∞ wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:13 am
Catastrophic failures will always happen; it's the tragic reality of humanity and complex systems. But we investigate, learn, and punish those that didn't take their responsibility to safety seriously. Engineers - nor any career - has the luxury of qualified immunity.

Cops can be violent and if they get in trouble, grift their way to another department.
Probably happens sometimes.
Police officers are arrested about 1,100 times a year, or roughly three officers charged every day, according to a new national study. The most common crimes were simple assault, drunken driving and aggravated assault, and significant numbers of sex crimes were also found. About 72 percent of officers charged in cases with known outcomes are convicted, more than 40 percent of the crimes are committed on duty, and nearly 95 percent of the officers charged are men.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/tru ... ationwide/

I think you've passed all other posters for partisanship and irrationality.
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by ∞∞∞ »

89Hen wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:17 am
∞∞∞ wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:13 am
Catastrophic failures will always happen; it's the tragic reality of humanity and complex systems. But we investigate, learn, and punish those that didn't take their responsibility to safety seriously. Engineers - nor any career - has the luxury of qualified immunity.

Cops can be violent and if they get in trouble, grift their way to another department.
Probably happens sometimes.
Police officers are arrested about 1,100 times a year, or roughly three officers charged every day, according to a new national study. The most common crimes were simple assault, drunken driving and aggravated assault, and significant numbers of sex crimes were also found. About 72 percent of officers charged in cases with known outcomes are convicted, more than 40 percent of the crimes are committed on duty, and nearly 95 percent of the officers charged are men.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/tru ... ationwide/

I think you've passed all other posters for partisanship and irrationality.
That article doesn't help your argument. Talk about another reason for needing national reform. :lol:
Last edited by ∞∞∞ on Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by Winterborn »

∞∞∞ wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:13 am
Winterborn wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:05 am


And yet this still happens.

Catastrophic failures will always happen; it's the tragic reality of humanity and complex systems. But we investigate, learn, and punish those that didn't take their responsibility to safety seriously. Engineers - nor any career - has the luxury of qualified immunity.

Cops can be violent and if they get in trouble, grift their way to another department.
Your first paragraph I agree with outside of the qualified immunity with respect to law enforcement. I think it needs to be looked at and tweaked a bit but not completely taken away.

As for your second paragraph, I have seen the same thing happen with bad engineers (and other professions) so it is not unique to cops. It is part of living in a complex society that is not perfect nor will it ever be.
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by 93henfan »

89Hen wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:06 am
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:lol:

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by 89Hen »

∞∞∞ wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:22 am
89Hen wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:17 am

Probably happens sometimes.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/tru ... ationwide/

I think you've passed all other posters for partisanship and irrationality.
That article doesn't help your argument. Talk about another reason for needing national reform. :lol:
:suspicious: My argument? Did I argue we don't need to improve police departments and policing? I'm done with you. I feel like I'm picking on a special needs kid.
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by SDHornet »

93henfan wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:23 am
Winterborn wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:20 am


:lol: :notworthy:
Btw, the fact that kid is urban patrolling with a rifle that fucking long and still pwned an armed mob trying to kill him makes it all the more epic.
The best part was after the 2nd altercation (when they attacked him on the ground) ended he just stood up and walked off like a mother fucking boss. 8-)

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by SDHornet »

89Hen wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:54 am
∞∞∞ wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:50 am


Yup, and that's the exact problem: the presumption everyone is an immediate, mortal threat during a confrontation. It's an asymmetric issue where a person's freedom to life has little chance against police training. That's the point of these protests.

Most of us have dealt with people acting angry, unresponsively, or erratically. It doesn't typically end in grave violence, and there's no reason it should with police. Patience, time, and simply letting things go is a friend during heightened emotions.
And that's why you're an engineer and not in charge of policing. :coffee:
Be kind, his ilk think sending a social worker to these kinds of situations would have a better result. Also wasn't Trip advocating for having 3rd party policing? We literally got a taste of what that looks like with these shootings and he is already tapping out. :lol:

Also note the irony of a pro-abortionist calling on the sanctity and freedom of life. Double bonus on his post.

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by Ibanez »

∞∞∞ wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:50 am
JoltinJoe wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:35 am
I don't know, CID. Every officer I know as said that when the car door opens, and his hands disappear from sight, all bets are off. They are going to assume that, within a micro-second, the guy is going to have a gun. That's their training.

I know a lot of officers in town who were deeply troubled by the George Floyd case, but say they would have reacted the same way in the Blake matter.
Yup, and that's the exact problem: the presumption everyone is an immediate, mortal threat during a confrontation. It's an asymmetric issue where a person's freedom to life has little chance against police training. That's the point of these protests.

Most of us have dealt with people acting angry, unresponsively, or erratically. It doesn't typically end in grave violence, and there's no reason it should with police. Patience, time, and simply letting things go is a friend during heightened emotions.
If an armed person is telling me they will kill me - I'm pretty sure that there's an "immediate, mortal threat".
Turns out I might be a little gay. 89Hen 11/7/17

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by Ibanez »

∞∞∞ wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:08 am
89Hen wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:02 am


:lol: America's engineers... true heroes.
Like I said, there's a reason people are protesting the police and the majority of Americans want reforms. If you want a free society, you can't be shocked when people are angry their freedoms are being threatened. As they stand, the police are a threat to freedom. :twocents:
The police unions and practices pose the threat. Reform those and you'll see the police officers themselves change.

Once again - unions are the biggest hindrance to true change.
Turns out I might be a little gay. 89Hen 11/7/17

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by JoltinJoe »

Ibanez wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:58 am
∞∞∞ wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:50 am


Yup, and that's the exact problem: the presumption everyone is an immediate, mortal threat during a confrontation. It's an asymmetric issue where a person's freedom to life has little chance against police training. That's the point of these protests.

Most of us have dealt with people acting angry, unresponsively, or erratically. It doesn't typically end in grave violence, and there's no reason it should with police. Patience, time, and simply letting things go is a friend during heightened emotions.
If an armed person is telling me they will kill me - I'm pretty sure that there's an "immediate, mortal threat".
Not true. If I have a gun; they have a knife; and there is distance between us, I can de-escalate.

That's what happened here. But when the guy finally charged at her, she plugged him.

It was the charge that created the "immediate, mortal threat."

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by dbackjon »

Skjellyfetti wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:21 pm
AZGrizFan wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:38 pm


Possibly. :coffee:
Wow. We found an undecided voter. So rare.

Spoiler: show
He's voting for Trump.
He only votes Libertarian when he thinks his vote doesn't matter
:thumb:

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by Ibanez »

JoltinJoe wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:18 am
Ibanez wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:58 am

If an armed person is telling me they will kill me - I'm pretty sure that there's an "immediate, mortal threat".
Not true. If I have a gun; they have a knife; and there is distance between us, I can de-escalate.

That's what happened here. But when the guy finally charged at her, she plugged him.

It was the charge that created the "immediate, mortal threat."
If I feel my life is threatened, I'm not going to back away for minutes. I'm taking my shot. You get 1 warning.

Unless there's a second video, I don't see the charge. I see the guy go down. Perhaps I missed it.
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by GannonFan »

JoltinJoe wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:59 am


Maybe citizens need to be better trained. When being arrested, even if you think it's bullshit, keep your hands in plain sight, and go without escalation, even if the offense is something minor. You are risking your life if you escalate. There is time later to sort things out.

Geez, even in Drivers' Ed when I was 17, I was told if I was pulled over for a traffic offense, keep my hands in sight and follow instructions. And when securing credentials from the glove compartment, move slowly.
I get all that, and it makes sense - aggravating the cop during a traffic stop or other interaction is never a good idea and it's a big factor in almost all of these incidents that have gone bad.

With that said, Black people have an important point that other folks don't have - the average Black person gets pulled over far more often than a person of another race. When I get pulled over once every decade, I know I've gotten pulled over for something I did wrong (speeding, running a stop sign, etc). When you get pulled over 20-30 times a decade you start to get a little pissed off because some of those are surely for driving Black and not for a real violation. The more you get pulled over for no good reason the more likely you are to react negatively. That's surely something we can fix - be better about tracking and recording stops by police by race/gender of those stopped.
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by UNI88 »

GannonFan wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:34 am
JoltinJoe wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:59 am


Maybe citizens need to be better trained. When being arrested, even if you think it's bullshit, keep your hands in plain sight, and go without escalation, even if the offense is something minor. You are risking your life if you escalate. There is time later to sort things out.

Geez, even in Drivers' Ed when I was 17, I was told if I was pulled over for a traffic offense, keep my hands in sight and follow instructions. And when securing credentials from the glove compartment, move slowly.
I get all that, and it makes sense - aggravating the cop during a traffic stop or other interaction is never a good idea and it's a big factor in almost all of these incidents that have gone bad.

With that said, Black people have an important point that other folks don't have - the average Black person gets pulled over far more often than a person of another race. When I get pulled over once every decade, I know I've gotten pulled over for something I did wrong (speeding, running a stop sign, etc). When you get pulled over 20-30 times a decade you start to get a little pissed off because some of those are surely for driving Black and not for a real violation. The more you get pulled over for no good reason the more likely you are to react negatively. That's surely something we can fix - be better about tracking and recording stops by police by race/gender of those stopped.
:nod:

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by UNI88 »

∞∞∞ wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:08 am
89Hen wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:02 am

:lol: America's engineers... true heroes.
Like I said, there's a reason people are protesting the police and the majority of Americans want reforms. If you want a free society, you can't be shocked when people are angry their freedoms are being threatened. As they stand, the police are a threat to freedom. :twocents:
True. The flip side is that when the protesters/rioters/looters brutalize other civilians, damage and steal from businesses and/or show up in residential areas demanding homeowners give up their money and property, you can't be shocked when those impacted are also angry that their freedoms are being threatened. As it stands, the police protect freedom and property. :twocents:

I support police reform but this is not nearly as one-sided as you want to make it.

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by 89Hen »

GannonFan wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:34 am
With that said, Black people have an important point that other folks don't have - the average Black person gets pulled over far more often than a person of another race. When I get pulled over once every decade, I know I've gotten pulled over for something I did wrong (speeding, running a stop sign, etc). When you get pulled over 20-30 times a decade you start to get a little pissed off because some of those are surely for driving Black and not for a real violation. The more you get pulled over for no good reason the more likely you are to react negatively. That's surely something we can fix - be better about tracking and recording stops by police by race/gender of those stopped.
I don't disagree. But it seems like nearly all the victims of these high profile cases have something else in common too.
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by BDKJMU »

93henfan wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:39 am
Winterborn wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:28 am



I saw that L Lin Wood (Sandmann's attorney) is looking to represent the kid.
GoFundMe shut down all fundraisers supporting the kid, but you can donate to his legal team. I will be donating. I may need them myself someday at the rate these mobs are popping up. I will not be a victim of left-wing extremism.

https://fightback.law/
Ditto.
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by Ivytalk »

dbackjon wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:28 am
Skjellyfetti wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:21 pm


Wow. We found an undecided voter. So rare.

Spoiler: show
He's voting for Trump.
He only votes Libertarian when he thinks his vote doesn't matter
You’re such a hypocrite. You’d be perfectly fine with a Green Party member who voted for Biden because he thought his vote didn’t matter. :dunce:
“Sure. I was wrong.” — 89Hen 7/27/2020

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by UNI88 »

BDKJMU wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:00 am
93henfan wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:39 am

GoFundMe shut down all fundraisers supporting the kid, but you can donate to his legal team. I will be donating. I may need them myself someday at the rate these mobs are popping up. I will not be a victim of left-wing extremism.

https://fightback.law/
Ditto.
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by BDKJMU »

GannonFan wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:34 am
JoltinJoe wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:59 am


Maybe citizens need to be better trained. When being arrested, even if you think it's bullshit, keep your hands in plain sight, and go without escalation, even if the offense is something minor. You are risking your life if you escalate. There is time later to sort things out.

Geez, even in Drivers' Ed when I was 17, I was told if I was pulled over for a traffic offense, keep my hands in sight and follow instructions. And when securing credentials from the glove compartment, move slowly.
I get all that, and it makes sense - aggravating the cop during a traffic stop or other interaction is never a good idea and it's a big factor in almost all of these incidents that have gone bad.

With that said, Black people have an important point that other folks don't have - the average Black person gets pulled over far more often than a person of another race. When I get pulled over once every decade, I know I've gotten pulled over for something I did wrong (speeding, running a stop sign, etc). When you get pulled over 20-30 times a decade you start to get a little pissed off because some of those are surely for driving Black and not for a real violation. The more you get pulled over for no good reason the more likely you are to react negatively. That's surely something we can fix - be better about tracking and recording stops by police by race/gender of those stopped.
I don’t think 20% more likely to be pulled over = that blacks on average are pulled over 20-30x a decade. I’m sure some are, but that has to be the extreme end.
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by BDKJMU »

UNI88 wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:24 am
BDKJMU wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:00 am

Ditto.
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https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/bear ... -protests/
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by GannonFan »

89Hen wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:05 am
GannonFan wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:34 am
With that said, Black people have an important point that other folks don't have - the average Black person gets pulled over far more often than a person of another race. When I get pulled over once every decade, I know I've gotten pulled over for something I did wrong (speeding, running a stop sign, etc). When you get pulled over 20-30 times a decade you start to get a little pissed off because some of those are surely for driving Black and not for a real violation. The more you get pulled over for no good reason the more likely you are to react negatively. That's surely something we can fix - be better about tracking and recording stops by police by race/gender of those stopped.
I don't disagree. But it seems like nearly all the victims of these high profile cases have something else in common too.
You'll have to elaborate - what did Floyd have similar with the guy in Konosha, other than race?
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