Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by Gil Dobie »

It's bound to happen, a mass shooting at one of these protest.
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by kalm »

93henfan wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:36 am
kalm wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:27 am
It’s a good thing these cosplayers are there helping the situation out.
:lol:
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by Ibanez »

SeattleGriz wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:10 am
Ibanez wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:44 am

Shouldn't they act in the best interests of the country and the people instead of 1 person?

Is the Deep State not supposed to be a shadow government?
You are conflating Trump with one person only. Trump represents ALL those that elected him. 62 million.

How does some lowly State Department employee get to deny 62 million Americans?

I could have said it better in the beginning.
Wrong. Trump is the President of the United States of America. He represents EVERYONE, regardless if they voted for him or not. Every single elected official seems to forget that they also represent those in their district/state that didn't vote for them.
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by Ibanez »

CID1990 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:11 am
Ibanez wrote: Is that deep state or just an unscrupulous person?
I’m not a subscriber to the “Deep State” theory of the trumpies

But it is exactly these kinds of people who contribute to that - that people like Reek continue to minimize and dismiss

Think about it - one of the grossest criminal abuses of power imaginable is a law enforcement official who lies on an affidavit in order to secure official sanction to violate a private citizen’s civil rights.

And it is precisely midlevel clerks like this that enable the worst abuses of any government - and I’ll do something I seldom do and invoke the Nazis here - it was exactly these kinds of bureaucratically obscure, corrupt officials have made the wheels turn for every corrupt regime that has ever existed

But for some people, bad cops are A-OK... I get it

But I would not consider this guy as either deep state OR unscrupulous. Its like calling G Gordon Liddy unscrupulous


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You raise a good point that I failed to take into account - that there will be people, career bureaucrats, that will keep the process moving in spite of an appointed official's direction (actually, I'm pretty sure 93 mentioned this several months ago). Does that make him part of the deep state.

Isn't one of the facets of the Deep State that it's a shadow government?
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by Ibanez »

CitadelGrad wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:18 am
Ibanez wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:57 pm

I don’t believe in conspiracy theories. People with scruples or willing to stand up to power aren’t necessary part of some cabal. The deep state is a conspiracy theory for butt hurt Republicans.


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So, Eisenhower was advancing a conspiracy theory when he talked about the military/industrial complex? Now you can throw the intelligence community, DOJ, State Department, and FBI into the mix.
The military-industrial complex is our military as well as the industries involved in the production of war materials. e.g Defense Contractors. Ike warned of their growing power and influence over policy and our economy. That wasn't a conspiracy theory, it was a warning (which we should've heeded).

Are you equating the MIC with a conspiracy theory of a shadow government that runs America?
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by UNI88 »

Ibanez wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:28 am
CitadelGrad wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:18 am

So, Eisenhower was advancing a conspiracy theory when he talked about the military/industrial complex? Now you can throw the intelligence community, DOJ, State Department, and FBI into the mix.
The military-industrial complex is our military as well as the industries involved in the production of war materials. e.g Defense Contractors. Ike warned of their growing power and influence over policy and our economy. That wasn't a conspiracy theory, it was a warning (which we should've heeded).

Are you equating the MIC with a conspiracy theory of a shadow government that runs America?
He's grasping. Or maybe he thinks Trump and Wolfie sent the DHS to Portland hoping that they would be killed by rioters and the deep state would lose some shock troops. It's 4D chess. :D

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by Ibanez »

UNI88 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:47 am
Ibanez wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:28 am


The military-industrial complex is our military as well as the industries involved in the production of war materials. e.g Defense Contractors. Ike warned of their growing power and influence over policy and our economy. That wasn't a conspiracy theory, it was a warning (which we should've heeded).

Are you equating the MIC with a conspiracy theory of a shadow government that runs America?
He's grasping. Or maybe he thinks Trump and Wolfie sent the DHS to Portland hoping that they would be killed by rioters and the deep state would lose some shock troops. It's 4D chess. :D
This is for the RNC Convention thread, but I love how Trump says we'll have riots and such if Biden is elected. As if that's not happening now. Under his watch. And of course the BDK response is, " Those are Democrat-led cities."

So the logic is - Riot under Republican President is the fault of Democrat mayors/governors. Riot under Democratic President is the fault of the Democratic President.
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by clenz »

HI54UNI wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:37 pm
Pic of one of the guys shot. Note what is in his hand.

Image

Is that enough for a self-defense angle?
Oh, you mean shooting that guy who was going after him after he had already murdered two people?

Nah, that's no longer self defense on his part. You don't get to murder two people, try to run away after it, and then shoot more people and claim "self defense"

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by CID1990 »

Ibanez wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:11 am
I’m not a subscriber to the “Deep State” theory of the trumpies

But it is exactly these kinds of people who contribute to that - that people like Reek continue to minimize and dismiss

Think about it - one of the grossest criminal abuses of power imaginable is a law enforcement official who lies on an affidavit in order to secure official sanction to violate a private citizen’s civil rights.

And it is precisely midlevel clerks like this that enable the worst abuses of any government - and I’ll do something I seldom do and invoke the Nazis here - it was exactly these kinds of bureaucratically obscure, corrupt officials have made the wheels turn for every corrupt regime that has ever existed

But for some people, bad cops are A-OK... I get it

But I would not consider this guy as either deep state OR unscrupulous. Its like calling G Gordon Liddy unscrupulous


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You raise a good point that I failed to take into account - that there will be people, career bureaucrats, that will keep the process moving in spite of an appointed official's direction (actually, I'm pretty sure 93 mentioned this several months ago). Does that make him part of the deep state.

Isn't one of the facets of the Deep State that it's a shadow government?
I don’t know. I’m sure that is part of the conspiracy theory.

But as with all conspiracy theories, there is always some smoke that contribute to them.

The Federal workforce leans left. I have personally witnessed, on regular occasions, behavior that I considered inappropriate for unelected bureaucrats who are *supposed to adhere to an oath to the Constitution and the citizens of the US regardless of political leanings. I have not witnessed any kind of coordination, which would be necessary for some kind of “deep state” conspiracy.

But abuses and dereliction of duty DO exist, and as we have seen, they can have dire nationwide implications. For example, just a few months ago, a defense of a FISA warrant would have been that it was issued by a judge who had carefully examined the facts leading to a finding of reasonable suspicion. Now we know - as a matter of actual fact - that those facts presented to the judge were doctored. Was that an action of the Deep State as the conspiracists define it? No. Was it something that a “deep state” would do? Absolutely.

And one more item to ponder - why did this attorney, understanding that he was committing a serious crime for which he would certainly be disbarred, feel secure in doing this? Did he not expect review? Was the atmosphere where he was working somehow conducive to altering affidavits? Did he feel as though he had the support of the Bureau at large? Or at least his immediate supervisors?


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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by 93henfan »

clenz wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:57 am
HI54UNI wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:37 pm
Pic of one of the guys shot. Note what is in his hand.

Image

Is that enough for a self-defense angle?
Oh, you mean shooting that guy who was going after him after he had already murdered two people?

Nah, that's no longer self defense on his part. You don't get to murder two people, try to run away after it, and then shoot more people and claim "self defense"
Is self-defense considered murder now in 2020? Interesting.

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by CID1990 »

This is what Treep’s “defund clap the clap police clap” utopia looks like


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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by SeattleGriz »

Ibanez wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:18 am
SeattleGriz wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:10 am


You are conflating Trump with one person only. Trump represents ALL those that elected him. 62 million.

How does some lowly State Department employee get to deny 62 million Americans?

I could have said it better in the beginning.
Wrong. Trump is the President of the United States of America. He represents EVERYONE, regardless if they voted for him or not. Every single elected official seems to forget that they also represent those in their district/state that didn't vote for them.
Now that we are talking about the President representing everyone, a deep stater would be those within government that actively defy the direction set by the President, who is carrying out the will of the people.

That's a better definition.

Of course that is my definition. I see other flavors of on the board I could agree with.
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by clenz »

93henfan wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:15 am
clenz wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:57 am


Oh, you mean shooting that guy who was going after him after he had already murdered two people?

Nah, that's no longer self defense on his part. You don't get to murder two people, try to run away after it, and then shoot more people and claim "self defense"
Is self-defense considered murder now in 2020? Interesting.
Murdering two people is considered murder in 2020 - especially with an illegally owned and carried weapon that was illegally transported across state lines and then fleeing the scene and state.

Novel concept, I realize

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by Ibanez »

SeattleGriz wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:39 am
Ibanez wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:18 am


Wrong. Trump is the President of the United States of America. He represents EVERYONE, regardless if they voted for him or not. Every single elected official seems to forget that they also represent those in their district/state that didn't vote for them.
Now that we are talking about the President representing everyone, a deep stater would be those within government that actively defy the direction set by the President, who is carrying out the will of the people.

That's a better definition.

Of course that is my definition. I see other flavors of on the board I could agree with.
Do you not think the POTUS represents all Americans?
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by SeattleGriz »

Ibanez wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:41 am
SeattleGriz wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:39 am


Now that we are talking about the President representing everyone, a deep stater would be those within government that actively defy the direction set by the President, who is carrying out the will of the people.

That's a better definition.

Of course that is my definition. I see other flavors of on the board I could agree with.
Do you not think the POTUS represents all Americans?
I believe he represents everyone, but that sentiment doesn't go both ways. Perfect example is building the wall. A majority of Americans support it, but you have Deep Staters who try to fight it because THEY don't believe in it. They are actively trying to derail.

That's all I've been trying to define, is my version of a Deep Stater.
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by Baldy »

Ibanez wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:54 am
UNI88 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:47 am


He's grasping. Or maybe he thinks Trump and Wolfie sent the DHS to Portland hoping that they would be killed by rioters and the deep state would lose some shock troops. It's 4D chess. :D
This is for the RNC Convention thread, but I love how Trump says we'll have riots and such if Biden is elected. As if that's not happening now. Under his watch. And of course the BDK response is, " Those are Democrat-led cities."

So the logic is - Riot under Republican President is the fault of Democrat mayors/governors. Riot under Democratic President is the fault of the Democratic President.
It's really no different than when you see Donks blasting DeSantis, Abbott and Kemp when the virus spikes in their respective states, but blast Trump when the virus spikes in New York, New Jersey, Michigan and California.

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by 89Hen »

Gil Dobie wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:37 am
It's bound to happen, a mass shooting at one of these protest.
Where did that happen?
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by Ivytalk »

Baldy wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:46 am
Ibanez wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:54 am


This is for the RNC Convention thread, but I love how Trump says we'll have riots and such if Biden is elected. As if that's not happening now. Under his watch. And of course the BDK response is, " Those are Democrat-led cities."

So the logic is - Riot under Republican President is the fault of Democrat mayors/governors. Riot under Democratic President is the fault of the Democratic President.
It's really no different than when you see Donks blasting DeSantis, Abbott and Kemp when the virus spikes in their respective states, but blast Trump when the virus spikes in New York, New Jersey, Michigan and California.
Well, personal responsibility never has been a Donk character trait.
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by Gil Dobie »

89Hen wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:48 am
Gil Dobie wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:37 am
It's bound to happen, a mass shooting at one of these protest.
Where did that happen?
It's bound to happen.
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by clenz »

Gil Dobie wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:56 am
89Hen wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:48 am


Where did that happen?
It's bound to happen.
Only in America is it bound to happen.

Because only in America are there more guns in the hands of people than hands of people. Only in America is it seen as a birthright to walk around strapped with an AR15, 4 hand guns, a shot gun, and hundreds of rounds of ammo.

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by 93henfan »

clenz wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:39 am
93henfan wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:15 am


Is self-defense considered murder now in 2020? Interesting.
Murdering two people is considered murder in 2020 - especially with an illegally owned and carried weapon that was illegally transported across state lines and then fleeing the scene and state.

Novel concept, I realize
Self defense isn't murder, since you refused to answer the question.

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by SeattleGriz »

93henfan wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:04 am
clenz wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:39 am


Murdering two people is considered murder in 2020 - especially with an illegally owned and carried weapon that was illegally transported across state lines and then fleeing the scene and state.

Novel concept, I realize
Self defense isn't murder, since you refused to answer the question.
Not sure if this is true yet, but seeing preliminary reporting showing the kid was shot at first while guarding the car lot.

On a side note, you should see the rap sheets on the guys shot.
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by 93henfan »

SeattleGriz wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:08 am
93henfan wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:04 am


Self defense isn't murder, since you refused to answer the question.
Not sure if this is true yet, but seeing preliminary reporting showing the kid was shot at first while guarding the car lot.

On a side note, you should see the rap sheets on the guys shot.
I've seen the unedited video. He was chased, physically threatened, and he defended himself. He will be exonerated. I hope he makes millions on a book deal and the speaking circuits after he is set free. He deserves it, just like the kid in DC whose life CNN tried to ruin with slickly edited video as well. I'm sure he's enjoying his undisclosed millions in settlement money.

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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by SeattleGriz »

93henfan wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:10 am
SeattleGriz wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:08 am


Not sure if this is true yet, but seeing preliminary reporting showing the kid was shot at first while guarding the car lot.

On a side note, you should see the rap sheets on the guys shot.
I've seen the unedited video. He was chased, physically threatened, and he defended himself. He will be exonerated. I hope he makes millions on a book deal and the speaking circuits after he is set free. He deserves it, just like the kid in DC whose life CNN tried to ruin with slickly edited video as well. I'm sure he's enjoying his undisclosed millions in settlement money.
There apparently were two incidents in case we aren't talking the same. This is my understanding of what happened.

The first happened at a car dealership where someone either fired at him or in the air. In his defense he shot a different guy lunging at him. This was the guy shot in the head, who died.

It is then that he was chased down the street and attacked by the guy with the gun (shot in the arm) and by another guy who hit him with a skateboard on the back of the head before that guy was shot in the chest and killed.

While I'm not sure it was in his best interests to "carry", I can see self defense in all of this.
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Re: Here We Go Again (Kenosha, WI)

Post by Ibanez »

Baldy wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:46 am
Ibanez wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:54 am


This is for the RNC Convention thread, but I love how Trump says we'll have riots and such if Biden is elected. As if that's not happening now. Under his watch. And of course the BDK response is, " Those are Democrat-led cities."

So the logic is - Riot under Republican President is the fault of Democrat mayors/governors. Riot under Democratic President is the fault of the Democratic President.
It's really no different than when you see Donks blasting DeSantis, Abbott and Kemp when the virus spikes in their respective states, but blast Trump when the virus spikes in New York, New Jersey, Michigan and California.
I didn't say it was different. Quit settling for the status quo.
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