POTUS Debate #1

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by AZGrizFan »

JohnStOnge wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:04 pm
BTW, what we say on this board doesn't really matter. Trump really hurt himself with his response to the "Proud Boys" thing. And he's not going to get out of it by trying to invoke the "ANTIFA" thing. Let's hope it and other things are enough to get this guy out of office so we can return to being a rational nation.
Hurt himself with whom, exactly? do tell....
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:52 pm
JohnStOnge wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:04 pm
BTW, what we say on this board doesn't really matter. Trump really hurt himself with his response to the "Proud Boys" thing. And he's not going to get out of it by trying to invoke the "ANTIFA" thing. Let's hope it and other things are enough to get this guy out of office so we can return to being a rational nation.
Hurt himself with whom, exactly? do tell....
There are more never Trumps in both parties than voters in his base. He needs to win independents. Last night was a red meat performance for his followers but I doubt it won over many indies. At best it didn’t hurt but trailing in the polls usually means you need to win opportunities like debates.
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by BDKJMU »

JohnStOnge wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:34 pm
UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:52 pm


Tell that to Aaron Danielson.

Obfuscating bullsh!t. If you don't think middle class swing voters are turned off by reports of Antifa/BLM "protesters" rioting, looting and marching into residential neighborhoods and chanting that the homes belong to them and the current owners should leave doesn't help Trump then you're naive.

When it comes to extremists, Trump hesitates and avoids, Biden deflects (Antifa is just an idea).
I think Biden would be in even better position if there were no protests. But not by much. Trump's thing with refusing to unambiguously distance himself from White Nationalists is hurting him a lot more than anything going on with the protests is hurting Biden.

One thing is that it's very important to Democrats to have high Black turnout. Trump doing this crap is really helping them in that regard. Also, yes, helping them with White suburban voters. You can argue about whether it should be the case or not. But being able to tie Trump to White Nationalists helps the Democrats a lot more than anything going on with the BLM protests hurts them. And Trump is doing all he can to help Democrats tie him to White Nationalists.

And BTW, Biden correctly described what "ANTIFA" is. He's got support from the FBI director. See https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump ... 4b65f2362e.
FBI Director Chris Wray told lawmakers Thursday that antifa is an ideology, not an organization
Biden accurately described the situation.
Wrong. Wray never said it was an "idea". And way to selectively quote Wray.
"Antifa is a real thing. It's not a group or an organization. It's a movement, or an ideology may be one way of thinking of it. And we have quite a number -- and I've said this quite consistently since my first time appearing before this committee -- we have any number of properly predicated investigations into what we would describe as violent anarchist extremists and some of those individuals self-identify with Antifa.

Antifa is a real thing. It’s not a fiction. But it is — it’s not an organization or a structure."
He again described it as more of a "movement" but again noted that there have been those who self-identify as being a part of it.
"They say 'I am Antifa."
Wray stated.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fbi-di ... cases-real
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by Vidav »

BDKJMU wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:19 pm
JohnStOnge wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:34 pm


I think Biden would be in even better position if there were no protests. But not by much. Trump's thing with refusing to unambiguously distance himself from White Nationalists is hurting him a lot more than anything going on with the protests is hurting Biden.

One thing is that it's very important to Democrats to have high Black turnout. Trump doing this crap is really helping them in that regard. Also, yes, helping them with White suburban voters. You can argue about whether it should be the case or not. But being able to tie Trump to White Nationalists helps the Democrats a lot more than anything going on with the BLM protests hurts them. And Trump is doing all he can to help Democrats tie him to White Nationalists.

And BTW, Biden correctly described what "ANTIFA" is. He's got support from the FBI director. See https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump ... 4b65f2362e.



Biden accurately described the situation.
Wrong. Wray never said it was an "idea". And way to selectively quote Wray.
"Antifa is a real thing. It's not a group or an organization. It's a movement, or an ideology may be one way of thinking of it. And we have quite a number -- and I've said this quite consistently since my first time appearing before this committee -- we have any number of properly predicated investigations into what we would describe as violent anarchist extremists and some of those individuals self-identify with Antifa.

Antifa is a real thing. It’s not a fiction. But it is — it’s not an organization or a structure."
He again described it as more of a "movement" but again noted that there have been those who self-identify as being a part of it.
"They say 'I am Antifa."
Wray stated.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fbi-di ... cases-real
So saying it is a movement is different than saying it is an idea? Wow, way to grasp at the tiniest of straws.

Antifa isn't a single group, you can't point to an organizer. But it is an idea, an ideology, a movement. Just like white supremacy. People can claim to be part of it, but that doesn't mean it has structure. Just like Anonymous a few years ago. There was no structure to it and anyone could claim to be a part of it.

Seriously BDK, stop drinking the Trump juice. What the fuck.

Are you really that dumb?
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by SDHornet »

Didn't watch (it was nacho nite in the SDHornet household, priorities) but figured it'd be a shitshow. Based on some of the breakdowns I've heard that sounds like it was the case.

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by UNI88 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:34 pm
UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:52 pm


Tell that to Aaron Danielson.

Obfuscating bullsh!t. If you don't think middle class swing voters are turned off by reports of Antifa/BLM "protesters" rioting, looting and marching into residential neighborhoods and chanting that the homes belong to them and the current owners should leave doesn't help Trump then you're naive.

When it comes to extremists, Trump hesitates and avoids, Biden deflects (Antifa is just an idea).
I think Biden would be in even better position if there were no protests. But not by much. Trump's thing with refusing to unambiguously distance himself from White Nationalists is hurting him a lot more than anything going on with the protests is hurting Biden.

One thing is that it's very important to Democrats to have high Black turnout. Trump doing this crap is really helping them in that regard. Also, yes, helping them with White suburban voters. You can argue about whether it should be the case or not. But being able to tie Trump to White Nationalists helps the Democrats a lot more than anything going on with the BLM protests hurts them. And Trump is doing all he can to help Democrats tie him to White Nationalists.

And BTW, Biden correctly described what "ANTIFA" is. He's got support from the FBI director. See https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump ... 4b65f2362e.
FBI Director Chris Wray told lawmakers Thursday that antifa is an ideology, not an organization
Biden accurately described the situation.
Ideology ≠ idea.

Antifa is a facist ideology using intimidation and violence to force people to agree with it and support its causes. Not having an organized structure or leadership does not mean that it isn't dangerous and that it's actions should not be denounced. It is just as if not more dangerous than the Proud Boys.

Aaron Danielson was killed in self defense and George Floyd died of an overdose. You've become a Democratic partisan hack who will twist yourself into logical pretzels to defend the ctrl-left and criticize the alt-right.

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by SDHornet »

SDHornet wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:37 pm
Didn't watch (it was nacho nite in the SDHornet household, priorities) but figured it'd be a shitshow. Based on some of the breakdowns I've heard that sounds like it was the case.
Anyone buying the "Antifa is an idea, not an organization" line is a moron who hasn't been paying attention at all to the riots and destruction that has been going on across America.

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by BDKJMU »

Vidav wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:32 pm
BDKJMU wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:19 pm

Wrong. Wray never said it was an "idea". And way to selectively quote Wray.


He again described it as more of a "movement" but again noted that there have been those who self-identify as being a part of it.
Wray stated.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fbi-di ... cases-real
So saying it is a movement is different than saying it is an idea? Wow, way to grasp at the tiniest of straws.

Antifa isn't a single group, you can't point to an organizer. But it is an idea, an ideology, a movement. Just like white supremacy. People can claim to be part of it, but that doesn't mean it has structure. Just like Anonymous a few years ago. There was no structure to it and anyone could claim to be a part of it.

Seriously BDK, stop drinking the Trump juice. What the fuck.

Are you really that dumb?
Arguing ANTIFA is an “idea“ then calling someone else dumb :suspicious: :dunce:
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by BDKJMU »

SDHornet wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:58 pm
SDHornet wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:37 pm
Didn't watch (it was nacho nite in the SDHornet household, priorities) but figured it'd be a shitshow. Based on some of the breakdowns I've heard that sounds like it was the case.
Anyone buying the "Antifa is an idea, not an organization" line is a moron who hasn't been paying attention at all to the riots and destruction that has been going on across America.
Yep.. :nod:
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by SeattleGriz »

SDHornet wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:58 pm
SDHornet wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:37 pm
Didn't watch (it was nacho nite in the SDHornet household, priorities) but figured it'd be a shitshow. Based on some of the breakdowns I've heard that sounds like it was the case.
Anyone buying the "Antifa is an idea, not an organization" line is a moron who hasn't been paying attention at all to the riots and destruction that has been going on across America.
Don't know what it means to the bigger picture, but I'm always interested in how organized they are. Always seem to have bodies in the right places.

Maybe it's nothing more than a Twitter feed telling people where to be, but damn, they're pretty good at it.
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:44 pm
JohnStOnge wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:34 pm


I think Biden would be in even better position if there were no protests. But not by much. Trump's thing with refusing to unambiguously distance himself from White Nationalists is hurting him a lot more than anything going on with the protests is hurting Biden.

One thing is that it's very important to Democrats to have high Black turnout. Trump doing this crap is really helping them in that regard. Also, yes, helping them with White suburban voters. You can argue about whether it should be the case or not. But being able to tie Trump to White Nationalists helps the Democrats a lot more than anything going on with the BLM protests hurts them. And Trump is doing all he can to help Democrats tie him to White Nationalists.

And BTW, Biden correctly described what "ANTIFA" is. He's got support from the FBI director. See https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump ... 4b65f2362e.



Biden accurately described the situation.
Ideology ≠ idea.

Antifa is a facist ideology using intimidation and violence to force people to agree with it and support its causes. Not having an organized structure or leadership does not mean that it isn't dangerous and that it's actions should not be denounced. It is just as if not more dangerous than the Proud Boys.

Aaron Danielson was killed in self defense and George Floyd died of an overdose. You've become a Democratic partisan hack who will twist yourself into logical pretzels to defend the ctrl-left and criticize the alt-right.
With all the different kinds of fascism out there, it’s getting super confusing who to root for...

fascism noun

fas·​cism | \ ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi- \

Definition of fascism

1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by Ibanez »

BDKJMU wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:23 pm
Ibanez wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:11 pm


Trump refused to denounce White Supremacists. Not only that, tacitly supported and advised them by telling a group to "stand back and stand by" :roll:

Comparing the hateful actions of one group against another is a pretty stupid defense.
Proud Boys have denied being white supremacists, and have themselves rejected white supremacy.
If a group has ties to white supremacist groups and is based on that the fact that WHITE MEN are under siege and there for will do what it takes to protect the white man then they might be not be so pure as the driven snow.


I had a relative who was in the KKK back in the 90s. He denied they were a hate group. Doesn't make it true.

So, moving on, you're fine with the POTUS telling a militant group to stand by (seemingly for his orders?) in case the election doesn't turn his way or something? Please. GTFO :tothehand:
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by 89Hen »

Ibanez wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:15 am
the POTUS telling a militant group to stand by (seemingly for his orders?)
That's a stretch Mark.
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by SunCoastBlueHen »

89Hen wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:19 am
Ibanez wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:15 am
the POTUS telling a militant group to stand by (seemingly for his orders?)
That's a stretch Mark.
Trump intending it to be taken that way is probably a stretch, but it seems that is how the group itself took it. That is what really matters and makes it a pretty bad verbal blunder.

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:26 am
UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:44 pm

Ideology ≠ idea.

Antifa is a facist ideology using intimidation and violence to force people to agree with it and support its causes. Not having an organized structure or leadership does not mean that it isn't dangerous and that it's actions should not be denounced. It is just as if not more dangerous than the Proud Boys.

Aaron Danielson was killed in self defense and George Floyd died of an overdose. You've become a Democratic partisan hack who will twist yourself into logical pretzels to defend the ctrl-left and criticize the alt-right.
With all the different kinds of fascism out there, it’s getting super confusing who to root for...

fascism noun

fas·​cism | \ ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi- \

Definition of fascism

1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
What point are you trying to make? That my calling Antifa a facist ideology is a stretch? Antifa is engaged in "forcible suppression of opposition" so it's not more of a stretch than calling Trump a facist and you don't call Trip of DBJ out for that.

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by Ibanez »

89Hen wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:19 am
Ibanez wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:15 am
the POTUS telling a militant group to stand by (seemingly for his orders?)
That's a stretch Mark.
He told them to stand by....that's pretty dang clear.
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by kalm »

89Hen wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:19 am
Ibanez wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:15 am
the POTUS telling a militant group to stand by (seemingly for his orders?)
That's a stretch Mark.
I just hope Biden tells Antifa to stand down and stand by!
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:40 am
kalm wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:26 am


With all the different kinds of fascism out there, it’s getting super confusing who to root for...

fascism noun

fas·​cism | \ ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi- \

Definition of fascism

1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
What point are you trying to make? That my calling Antifa a facist ideology is a stretch? Antifa is engaged in "forcible suppression of opposition" so it's not more of a stretch than calling Trump a facist and you don't call Trip of DBJ out for that.
Trump is way, way closer to the definition of that word than Antifa. Nationalism, racism, corporatism, calls to violence, and most importantly, access to power and forces. It’s not even arguable. He paints that picture with his own words. Hell, Hillary Clinton and modern feminists are closer to being fascists. :lol:

I’ll try to be better at calling out the left too (all 5 of us) although Dback and I have tangled several times in the past on similar issues.
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:46 am
UNI88 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:40 am

What point are you trying to make? That my calling Antifa a facist ideology is a stretch? Antifa is engaged in "forcible suppression of opposition" so it's not more of a stretch than calling Trump a facist and you don't call Trip of DBJ out for that.
Trump is way, way closer to the definition of that word than Antifa. Nationalism, racism, corporatism, calls to violence, and most importantly, access to power and forces. It’s not even arguable. He paints that picture with his own words. Hell, Hillary Clinton and modern feminists are closer to being fascists. :lol:

I’ll try to be better at calling out the left too (all 5 of us) although Dback and I have tangled several times in the past on similar issues.
It isn't arguable in your opinion. I disagree - using the definition you provided:
  • Exalts nation and often race above the individual - exalts nation above the individual = Trump and the alt-right; exalts race above the individual = Antifa and the ctrl-left
  • Stands for a centralized autocratic government = both
  • Headed by a dictatorial leader = I agree that Trump would love to be a dicatator in the present but I fear this more from Antifa and the ctrl-left for the future
  • Severe economic and social regimentation = Antifa and the ctrl-left
  • Forcible suppression of opposition = both
Antifa is a purported to be an anti-facist movement but they use facist techniques. Don't you see the irony and utter hypocrisy in that?

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by 89Hen »

SunCoastBlueHen wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:40 am
89Hen wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:19 am


That's a stretch Mark.
Trump intending it to be taken that way is probably a stretch, but it seems that is how the group itself took it. That is what really matters and makes it a pretty bad verbal blunder.
https://news.sky.com/story/us-election- ... p-12086267
Enrique Tarrio, international chairman of the group, told Sky News he did not see the president's words as an endorsement of his group, and that Mr Biden had made a "crucial mistake" in naming them as racists.
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by 89Hen »

kalm wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:41 am
89Hen wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:19 am


That's a stretch Mark.
I just hope Biden tells Antifa to stand down and stand by!
How do you tell an idea?
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by SunCoastBlueHen »

89Hen wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:01 am
SunCoastBlueHen wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:40 am


Trump intending it to be taken that way is probably a stretch, but it seems that is how the group itself took it. That is what really matters and makes it a pretty bad verbal blunder.
https://news.sky.com/story/us-election- ... p-12086267
Enrique Tarrio, international chairman of the group, told Sky News he did not see the president's words as an endorsement of his group, and that Mr Biden had made a "crucial mistake" in naming them as racists.
Bullshit.

The quote energized a bunch of stupid, redneck assholes.
Starting Tuesday night and continuing Wednesday, Trump’s comments were enshrined in memes, including one depicting Trump in one of the Proud Boys’ signature polo shirts. Another meme showed Trump’s quote alongside an image of bearded men carrying American flags and appearing to prepare for a fight. A third incorporated “STAND BACK AND STAND BY” into the group’s logo.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technolo ... lebration/

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by GannonFan »

UNI88 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:00 am
kalm wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:46 am


Trump is way, way closer to the definition of that word than Antifa. Nationalism, racism, corporatism, calls to violence, and most importantly, access to power and forces. It’s not even arguable. He paints that picture with his own words. Hell, Hillary Clinton and modern feminists are closer to being fascists. :lol:

I’ll try to be better at calling out the left too (all 5 of us) although Dback and I have tangled several times in the past on similar issues.
It isn't arguable in your opinion. I disagree - using the definition you provided:
  • Exalts nation and often race above the individual - exalts nation above the individual = Trump and the alt-right; exalts race above the individual = Antifa and the ctrl-left
  • Stands for a centralized autocratic government = both
  • Headed by a dictatorial leader = I agree that Trump would love to be a dicatator in the present but I fear this more from Antifa and the ctrl-left for the future
  • Severe economic and social regimentation = Antifa and the ctrl-left
  • Forcible suppression of opposition = both
Antifa is a purported to be an anti-facist movement but they use facist techniques. Don't you see the irony and utter hypocrisy in that?
Truth be told, the actual Nazi's (you know, the real ones from Germany) were quite successful at blaming other groups for violence and oppression and the like. They said they had to be out in the streets to combat others that were already out in the street. It's easy to put either a right wing group or a left wing group into that definition when you think of it that way.

We're lucky with Trump. Although the left loves to paint him in fascist colors (and they have been calling GOP Presidents Nazis for a good 20 years now), in reality Trump is just a narcissistic buffoon. We're luck in that he really doesn't have any particular ideology other than self-interest. I dread the day when we get a real autocratic President who is also an ideologue - that's when the real danger could happen.
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by kalm »

89Hen wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:02 am
kalm wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:41 am


I just hope Biden tells Antifa to stand down and stand by!
How do you tell an idea?
Dunno....you’re the religious one. :mrgreen:
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by GannonFan »

SunCoastBlueHen wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:06 am
Bullshit.

The quote energized a bunch of stupid, redneck assholes.
Starting Tuesday night and continuing Wednesday, Trump’s comments were enshrined in memes, including one depicting Trump in one of the Proud Boys’ signature polo shirts. Another meme showed Trump’s quote alongside an image of bearded men carrying American flags and appearing to prepare for a fight. A third incorporated “STAND BACK AND STAND BY” into the group’s logo.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technolo ... lebration/
I also wonder how much of this is a problem of our own making. The more we shed light on and illuminate these whacko groups, the more publicity they get. I don't recall hearing much of these groups in the lead up to the 2016 election, but we seemed to find every nook and cranny where they could be after Trump was elected and people wanted to come up with reasons why. Now we've spent 4 years convincing ourselves that these groups are widespread and about to explode. I remember back in my college days (mid 90's) the Elkton chapter of the KKK won a permit to march in Newark - there was a lot of angst and vitriol in the student newspaper and how this was the ending of the world, and in the end something like five homely-looking guys in robes walked down Main Street and hardly anyone noticed. I'm not saying we ignore whacko fringe groups, but at the same time I think we do ourselves a disservice by breathing life into these groups as we make them out to be far more than they actually are.
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