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UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:10 pm

DuckDuckGriz wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:48 am Here's an honest question for the board that I've been wrestling with.

Do you think this will continue to be a country where you can openly protest what you consider to be fascist policies and authoritarianism?
Do you think an organized (peaceful) protest will exist without being labeled ANTIFA?

I hope so. I'm sympathetic to the issues. but not the methods and would like to see the protesters follow in the footsteps of Martin Luther King Jr. and practice non-violence.

Let me ask you a question related to the protests - if ACAB (all cops are bad/bastards) because they don't stop racist cops then aren't all protesters bad/bastards because they don't stop looters and rioters?

89Hen wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:11 pm

DuckDuckGriz wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:48 am Here's an honest question for the board that I've been wrestling with.

Do you think this will continue to be a country where you can openly protest what you consider to be fascist policies and authoritarianism?
Do you think an organized (peaceful) protest will exist without being labeled ANTIFA?

There are tons of peaceful protests every day that aren't labeled ANTIFA because there aren't masked young folks dressed in black with red symbols of communism and socialism carrying sticks and shields. I don't recall any of the Kavanaugh protests being labelled ANTIFA.

SDHornet wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:44 pm FBI saying antifa is real.

DuckDuckGriz wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:35 pm

UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:10 pm

I hope so. I'm sympathetic to the issues. but not the methods and would like to see the protesters follow in the footsteps of Martin Luther King Jr. and practice non-violence.

Let me ask you a question related to the protests - if ACAB (all cops are bad/bastards) because they don't stop racist cops then aren't all protesters bad/bastards because they don't stop looters and rioters?

ACAB is an extremist point of view.
All protestors are rioters is an extremist point of view.

If we label anything related to anti-fascism a terrorist or fringe group, are we in effect essentially muffling that form of opposition as legitimate?

And regarding the conflation of riots in the 1960s with the mission of MLK, I will leave this here.

AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:56 pm

DuckDuckGriz wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:35 pm

ACAB is an extremist point of view.
All protestors are rioters is an extremist point of view.

If we label anything related to anti-fascism a terrorist or fringe group, are we in effect essentially muffling that form of opposition as legitimate?

And regarding the conflation of riots in the 1960s with the mission of MLK, I will leave this here.

Except ANTIFA employs FASCIST techniques to allegedly protest against fascism.....

kalm wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:36 pm

AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:56 pm

Except ANTIFA employs FASCIST techniques to allegedly protest against fascism.....

What are fascist techniques?

Ibanez wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:53 am

BDKJMU wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:22 am
What "white supremacist groups" do the Proud Boys have ties to, and according to whom?

According to the FBI. If you want to know, do the research. Quit be a lazy, low information voter.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:33 pm

kalm wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:57 am

Who/where are their leaders?

How will they implement their radical agenda? When is the government take over occurring or will it be shear strength of numbers and Molotovs?

I denounced the violence and destruction of property at the start. I’ve also said several times that both sides need to go home, and that Antifa isn’t helping Democrats win elections.

Would you like me to put a “both sides do it” disclaimer in my signature?

Did I touch a nerve? Are you still upset that your post-partisan title was rescinded by the Council?

I don't know who their leaders are. You brought them up.

You have denounced the violence and destruction and occasionally go at it with Jon but you focus your criticism on the right and treat Trip like a little brother that you have to protect from the big, mean conservatives. A true post-partisan is a little less partisan.

kalm wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:36 pm What are fascist techniques?

89Hen wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:41 am

kalm wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:36 pm What are fascist techniques?

Stinky bait there kalm. You're not that dumb.

kalm wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:01 am

89Hen wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:41 am

Stinky bait there kalm. You're not that dumb.

I honestly want you guys to describe what fascist techniques are.

Skjellyfetti wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:34 am That's a pretty loose fucking definition.

kalm wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:01 am

89Hen wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:41 am
Stinky bait there kalm. You're not that dumb.

I honestly want you guys to describe what fascist techniques are.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:23 pm

89Hen wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:08 pm Who is the head of systemic racism in the US? If there isn't one, we shouldn't be concerned about it.

Yep. To paraphrase:
White Supremacism = loose ideologies under one banner.

Arguing about whether Antifa has a structure and leadership at the national level (SD's provided links to local organizations) is a deflection.

Is there a link between Antifa and violence? If it's fair to ask Trump to denounce the Proud Boys and similar groups, is it fair to ask Biden to denounce Antifa?

kalm wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:47 am

BDKJMU wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:22 am
What "white supremacist groups" do the Proud Boys have ties to, and according to whom?

I don’t know if they have ties to other groups and McGinnes is a provocateur who probably doesn’t believe most of his own bullshit.

McInnes is a co-founder of Vice magazine and one of the world’s foremost purveyors of xenophobic content. “I love being white and I think it’s something to be very proud of,” he told The New York Times in 2003. “I don’t want our culture diluted. We need to close the borders now and let everyone assimilate to a Western, white, English-speaking way of life.”

He called Jada Pinkett Smith a “monkey actress” in 2016, and in 2017 he chatted with Alex Jones about whether women “deserve” to be assaulted if they stay out late. Also in 2017, McInnes released a video titled “10 Things I Hate About Jews” in which he regurgitated anti-Semitic stereotypes and defended Holocaust denial. In 2018, he compared female journalists to “a colostomy bag for various strangers’ semen,” and said that women reporting sexual harassment at work are “proof that women don’t belong in the workforce.”

https://www.mediamatters.org/gavin-mcin ... 4vhyrXmEFs

Mr. Reilly said that about 10% to 20% of Proud Boys activists are people of color, a diverse racial composition that is “extremely well-known in law enforcement,” based on his research.

“Enrique Tarrio, their overall leader, is a Black Cuban dude. The Proud Boys explicitly say they’re not racist. They are an openly right-leaning group and they’ll openly fight you — they don’t deny any of this — but saying they’re White supremacist: If you’re talking about a group of people more than 10% people of color and headed by an Afro-Latino guy, that doesn’t make sense.”

...The Southern Poverty Law Center and the Anti-Defamation League both consider the group a right-wing, extremist organization — but one that occupies an unusual place on the extremist spectrum.

In a report on the group, the ADL labeled them “alt lite,” as opposed to more blatant and extreme alt-right groups.

“While the group can be described as violent, nationalistic, Islamophobic, transphobic and misogynistic, its members represent a range of ethnic backgrounds, and its leaders vehemently protest any allegations of racism,” the ADL wrote in the report....

BDKJMU wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:33 pm

kalm wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:47 am
I don’t know if they have ties to other groups and McGinnes is a provocateur who probably doesn’t believe most of his own bullshit.

https://www.mediamatters.org/gavin-mcin ... 4vhyrXmEFs

McInnes is their founder, but not current leader. Ever heard of a so called "White Supremacist Group" who's current leader, Enrique Tarrio from Miami, is a black Latino, with a double digit % of non white members?

https://heavy.com/news/2018/11/enrique-tarrio/

Mr. Reilly said that about 10% to 20% of Proud Boys activists are people of color, a diverse racial composition that is “extremely well-known in law enforcement,” based on his research.

“Enrique Tarrio, their overall leader, is a Black Cuban dude. The Proud Boys explicitly say they’re not racist. They are an openly right-leaning group and they’ll openly fight you — they don’t deny any of this — but saying they’re White supremacist: If you’re talking about a group of people more than 10% people of color and headed by an Afro-Latino guy, that doesn’t make sense.”

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... hite-supr/

That even the SPLC and ADL label right wing extremists, but don't label "White Supremacist".

...The Southern Poverty Law Center and the Anti-Defamation League both consider the group a right-wing, extremist organization — but one that occupies an unusual place on the extremist spectrum.

In a report on the group, the ADL labeled them “alt lite,” as opposed to more blatant and extreme alt-right groups.

“While the group can be described as violent, nationalistic, Islamophobic, transphobic and misogynistic, its members represent a range of ethnic backgrounds, and its leaders vehemently protest any allegations of racism,” the ADL wrote in the report....

https://nypost.com/2020/09/30/who-are-t ... s-leaders/

UNI88 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:18 pm

BDKJMU wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:33 pm

McInnes is their founder, but not current leader. Ever heard of a so called "White Supremacist Group" who's current leader, Enrique Tarrio from Miami, is a black Latino, with a double digit % of non white members?

https://heavy.com/news/2018/11/enrique-tarrio/


https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... hite-supr/

That even the SPLC and ADL label right wing extremists, but don't label "White Supremacist".

https://nypost.com/2020/09/30/who-are-t ... s-leaders/

Are there any similarities between labeling the Proud Boys as white supremacist and labeling BLM as marxist because of their founders?

BDKJMU wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:33 pm

kalm wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:47 am

I don’t know if they have ties to other groups and McGinnes is a provocateur who probably doesn’t believe most of his own bullshit.


https://www.mediamatters.org/gavin-mcin ... 4vhyrXmEFs

McInnes is their founder, but not current leader. Ever heard of a so called "White Supremacist Group" who's current leader, Enrique Tarrio from Miami, is a black Latino, with a double digit % of non white members?

https://heavy.com/news/2018/11/enrique-tarrio/

Mr. Reilly said that about 10% to 20% of Proud Boys activists are people of color, a diverse racial composition that is “extremely well-known in law enforcement,” based on his research.

“Enrique Tarrio, their overall leader, is a Black Cuban dude. The Proud Boys explicitly say they’re not racist. They are an openly right-leaning group and they’ll openly fight you — they don’t deny any of this — but saying they’re White supremacist: If you’re talking about a group of people more than 10% people of color and headed by an Afro-Latino guy, that doesn’t make sense.”

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... hite-supr/

That even the SPLC and ADL label right wing extremists, but don't label "White Supremacist".

...The Southern Poverty Law Center and the Anti-Defamation League both consider the group a right-wing, extremist organization — but one that occupies an unusual place on the extremist spectrum.

In a report on the group, the ADL labeled them “alt lite,” as opposed to more blatant and extreme alt-right groups.

“While the group can be described as violent, nationalistic, Islamophobic, transphobic and misogynistic, its members represent a range of ethnic backgrounds, and its leaders vehemently protest any allegations of racism,” the ADL wrote in the report....

https://nypost.com/2020/09/30/who-are-t ... s-leaders/

UNI88 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:18 pm Are there any similarities between labeling the Proud Boys as white supremacist and labeling BLM as marxist because of their founders?

89Hen wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:27 pm

UNI88 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:18 pm Are there any similarities between labeling the Proud Boys as white supremacist and labeling BLM as marxist because of their founders?

The first time I've heard a Proud Boys founder speak was yesterday, so I honestly don't know anything about them other then they deny being white supremacists, which of course has to be taken with a grain of salt. The BLM founders have been very upfront and proclaimed their position, but the suburban whites don't give a shit and put the signs up in their yard anyway.

FWIW, I've never once seen a Proud Boys bumper sticker, yard sign, t-shirt, etc... but I can drive around and find you all of those for BLM within seconds of my house.

HI54UNI wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:53 am

BDKJMU wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:03 am

89Hen wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:27 pm
The first time I've heard a Proud Boys founder speak was yesterday, so I honestly don't know anything about them other then they deny being white supremacists, which of course has to be taken with a grain of salt. The BLM founders have been very upfront and proclaimed their position, but the suburban whites don't give a shit and put the signs up in their yard anyway.

FWIW, I've never once seen a Proud Boys bumper sticker, yard sign, t-shirt, etc... but I can drive around and find you all of those for BLM within seconds of my house.

Sounds like you’re living in the wrong area. Early-mid Sept I drove down to rural VA then the Carolinas, Georgia, N Fl, stayed St Johns Co/St Aug for a week+, then back, mostly 2 to 4 lane non interstate/rural (I like country drives & try to avoid interstates time permitting). Maybe 100 locations with several hundred Trump signs/flags (most put up more than 1), 1 Biden flag, zero BLM. Its like we’re talking about 2 different worlds.

89Hen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:59 am

BDKJMU wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:03 am
Sounds like you’re living in the wrong area. Early-mid Sept I drove down to rural VA then the Carolinas, Georgia, N Fl, stayed St Johns Co/St Aug for a week+, then back, mostly 2 to 4 lane non interstate/rural (I like country drives & try to avoid interstates time permitting). Maybe 100 locations with several hundred Trump signs/flags (most put up more than 1), 1 Biden flag, zero BLM. Its like we’re talking about 2 different worlds.

I see tons of Trump and Biden flags and yard signs. I was specifically talking about Proud Boys vs BLM.