What to expect from the Biden-HArris administration?

[kalm]

That's just one article, The Squad made comments today as well. I think Biden even made a comment eariler.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/sq ... -loan-debt



Among other things, gov't back loans are to blame for the high cost of education...that and our money is backed by warm hugs and good feelings instead of anything real.

Hey, I'm all in favor of free college, I just wonder 1) if the amount of money you need to do this is even there and 2) are all public 4-colleges going to agree on their costs that need to be covered by such a program. Devil's always in the details. Frankly, though, I would much rather we have a national health care system before we start saying that college should be free, and I don't think we can realistically do both. Unless, as you say, we just print money and say we can now do both.

We can afford it through tax increases, spending cuts, or both. We choose not to.

[AZGrizFan]

Hey, I'm all in favor of free college, I just wonder 1) if the amount of money you need to do this is even there and 2) are all public 4-colleges going to agree on their costs that need to be covered by such a program. Devil's always in the details. Frankly, though, I would much rather we have a national health care system before we start saying that college should be free, and I don't think we can realistically do both. Unless, as you say, we just print money and say we can now do both.

We can afford it through tax increases, spending cuts, or both. We choose not to.

I had to pay for my OWN college and my two kids college. I have ZERO desire to pay for someone else’s’ kids college unless I get a say in their major and can decide at any moment to pull my support if they aren’t meeting my expectations. That’s the requirements I put on MY kids, and it’s the only way I’d support my tax dollars paying for someone ELSE’S college degree.

[kalm]

We can afford it through tax increases, spending cuts, or both. We choose not to.

I had to pay for my OWN college and my two kids college. I have ZERO desire to pay for someone else’s’ kids college unless I get a say in their major and can decide at any moment to pull my support if they aren’t meeting my expectations. That’s the requirements I put on MY kids, and it’s the only way I’d support my tax dollars paying for someone ELSE’S college degree.

[SuperHornet]

What to expect?

A transition to a Commie police state. That's exactly what they want, especially Harris. About the only difference between them and Sanders is that Sanders seems to want Communism WITHOUT the police state, a format which has never worked for any great length of time....

[Ibanez]

We can afford it through tax increases, spending cuts, or both. We choose not to.

I had to pay for my OWN college and my two kids college. I have ZERO desire to pay for someone else’s’ kids college unless I get a say in their major and can decide at any moment to pull my support if they aren’t meeting my expectations. That’s the requirements I put on MY kids, and it’s the only way I’d support my tax dollars paying for someone ELSE’S college degree.

You already pay for someone else's degree but I understand the sentiments...and agree.

I think most of us have all argued and agreed that the push (in my case by boomer parents) to go to college, get a 4 yr degree regardless of anything else, was misguided. Not everyone needs a 4 yr degree. The more BS, BA, Masters, that are out there, the less power it has. Its importance is diluted. Why get a Bachelors like millions and millions of others? It's been watered down. And now you're starting to see employers looking for people that might not have the "education" but they have the skill set or the talent. The best candidate might not have a 4 yr degree...but they've been building computers and working in tech for the last 15 yrs. I know at the Bank that's what we're doing. And you are seeing more and more emphasis on people getting professional certifications than a post-graduate degree. They are more focused, specialized forms of education that actually prove you know what you're doing. A masters is good for some - but not all. And that's what we've turned higher ed into - one size fits all. Tech schools should be filled to the brim. In the South - being an HVAC repairman can earn you a nice living. If you branch out on your own, you can make a damn good living. Learn how to plumb, make the right connections and you can end up doing all the plumbing for a neighborhood or any building that's under construction and make a very fine living.

I honestly believe that the only thing a liberal arts higher education proves these days is that you can finish a degree. Terminal degrees, like engineering, law or medical are different.

[BDKJMU]

You are correct- it would be patently UNFAIR to millions (or tens of millions?) of Americans who took out loans over the decades to pay for post HS educations.

Even more unfair to those of us that didn't.

Oops, I see I left out at the end "and paid them back"..

[UNI88]

You are correct- it would be patently UNFAIR to millions (or tens of millions?) of Americans who took out loans over the decades to pay for post HS educations.

Even more unfair to those of us that didn't.

But the reason you were able to attend college without loans is that your ancestors profited from institutional racism and the generational wealth from those profits was used to pay for your college.

Nevermind that this theory ignores the thousands of people like 93 who overcame humble beginnings to put themselves through school with hard work (jobs, GI Bill, etc.).

[89Hen]

Even more unfair to those of us that didn't.

But the reason you were able to attend college without loans is that your ancestors profited from institutional racism and the generational wealth from those profits was used to pay for your college.

Very true. My father who didn't graduate HS because of WWII was flush with cash.

[Ibanez]

But the reason you were able to attend college without loans is that your ancestors profited from institutional racism and the generational wealth from those profits was used to pay for your college.

Very true. My father who didn't graduate HS because of WWII was flush with cash.

I've been told that's an inherent bias..or something stupid like that.

[SDHornet]

I had to pay for my OWN college and my two kids college. I have ZERO desire to pay for someone else’s’ kids college unless I get a say in their major and can decide at any moment to pull my support if they aren’t meeting my expectations. That’s the requirements I put on MY kids, and it’s the only way I’d support my tax dollars paying for someone ELSE’S college degree.

You already pay for someone else's degree but I understand the sentiments...and agree.

I think most of us have all argued and agreed that the push (in my case by boomer parents) to go to college, get a 4 yr degree regardless of anything else, was misguided. Not everyone needs a 4 yr degree. The more BS, BA, Masters, that are out there, the less power it has. Its importance is diluted. Why get a Bachelors like millions and millions of others? It's been watered down. And now you're starting to see employers looking for people that might not have the "education" but they have the skill set or the talent. The best candidate might not have a 4 yr degree...but they've been building computers and working in tech for the last 15 yrs. I know at the Bank that's what we're doing. And you are seeing more and more emphasis on people getting professional certifications than a post-graduate degree. They are more focused, specialized forms of education that actually prove you know what you're doing. A masters is good for some - but not all. And that's what we've turned higher ed into - one size fits all. Tech schools should be filled to the brim. In the South - being an HVAC repairman can earn you a nice living. If you branch out on your own, you can make a damn good living. Learn how to plumb, make the right connections and you can end up doing all the plumbing for a neighborhood or any building that's under construction and make a very fine living.

I honestly believe that the only thing a liberal arts higher education proves these days is that you can finish a degree. Terminal degrees, like engineering, law or medical are different.

A skilled trade is more than enough to support a family, and sadly that is not being emphasized enough to our youth. A college degree doesn't guarantee success.

[BDKJMU]

I had to pay for my OWN college and my two kids college. I have ZERO desire to pay for someone else’s’ kids college unless I get a say in their major and can decide at any moment to pull my support if they aren’t meeting my expectations. That’s the requirements I put on MY kids, and it’s the only way I’d support my tax dollars paying for someone ELSE’S college degree.

You already pay for someone else's degree but I understand the sentiments...and agree.

I think most of us have all argued and agreed that the push (in my case by boomer parents) to go to college, get a 4 yr degree regardless of anything else, was misguided. Not everyone needs a 4 yr degree. The more BS, BA, Masters, that are out there, the less power it has. Its importance is diluted. Why get a Bachelors like millions and millions of others? It's been watered down. And now you're starting to see employers looking for people that might not have the "education" but they have the skill set or the talent. The best candidate might not have a 4 yr degree...but they've been building computers and working in tech for the last 15 yrs. I know at the Bank that's what we're doing. And you are seeing more and more emphasis on people getting professional certifications than a post-graduate degree. They are more focused, specialized forms of education that actually prove you know what you're doing. A masters is good for some - but not all. And that's what we've turned higher ed into - one size fits all. Tech schools should be filled to the brim. In the South - being an HVAC repairman can earn you a nice living. If you branch out on your own, you can make a damn good living. Learn how to plumb, make the right connections and you can end up doing all the plumbing for a neighborhood or any building that's under construction and make a very fine living.

I honestly believe that the only thing a liberal arts higher education proves these days is that you can finish a degree. Terminal degrees, like engineering, law or medical are different.

Yep. Hey, we agree on something.

[BDKJMU]

You already pay for someone else's degree but I understand the sentiments...and agree.

I think most of us have all argued and agreed that the push (in my case by boomer parents) to go to college, get a 4 yr degree regardless of anything else, was misguided. Not everyone needs a 4 yr degree. The more BS, BA, Masters, that are out there, the less power it has. Its importance is diluted. Why get a Bachelors like millions and millions of others? It's been watered down. And now you're starting to see employers looking for people that might not have the "education" but they have the skill set or the talent. The best candidate might not have a 4 yr degree...but they've been building computers and working in tech for the last 15 yrs. I know at the Bank that's what we're doing. And you are seeing more and more emphasis on people getting professional certifications than a post-graduate degree. They are more focused, specialized forms of education that actually prove you know what you're doing. A masters is good for some - but not all. And that's what we've turned higher ed into - one size fits all. Tech schools should be filled to the brim. In the South - being an HVAC repairman can earn you a nice living. If you branch out on your own, you can make a damn good living. Learn how to plumb, make the right connections and you can end up doing all the plumbing for a neighborhood or any building that's under construction and make a very fine living.

I honestly believe that the only thing a liberal arts higher education proves these days is that you can finish a degree. Terminal degrees, like engineering, law or medical are different.

A skilled trade is more than enough to support a family, and sadly that is not being emphasized enough to our youth. A college degree doesn't guarantee success.

Yep- need more skilled electricians, plumbers, carpenters, HVAC, welders, mechanics, machinists, etc, as in several million more. The shortage started with the boomers not steering their Gen X & Y teens towards these fields in large enough #s. And its getting worse, as the Gen X parents are failing to steer their teenage kids to these fields in large enough #s..

[catbooster]

You already pay for someone else's degree but I understand the sentiments...and agree.

I think most of us have all argued and agreed that the push (in my case by boomer parents) to go to college, get a 4 yr degree regardless of anything else, was misguided. Not everyone needs a 4 yr degree. The more BS, BA, Masters, that are out there, the less power it has. Its importance is diluted. Why get a Bachelors like millions and millions of others? It's been watered down. And now you're starting to see employers looking for people that might not have the "education" but they have the skill set or the talent. The best candidate might not have a 4 yr degree...but they've been building computers and working in tech for the last 15 yrs. I know at the Bank that's what we're doing. And you are seeing more and more emphasis on people getting professional certifications than a post-graduate degree. They are more focused, specialized forms of education that actually prove you know what you're doing. A masters is good for some - but not all. And that's what we've turned higher ed into - one size fits all. Tech schools should be filled to the brim. In the South - being an HVAC repairman can earn you a nice living. If you branch out on your own, you can make a damn good living. Learn how to plumb, make the right connections and you can end up doing all the plumbing for a neighborhood or any building that's under construction and make a very fine living.

I honestly believe that the only thing a liberal arts higher education proves these days is that you can finish a degree. Terminal degrees, like engineering, law or medical are different.

A skilled trade is more than enough to support a family, and sadly that is not being emphasized enough to our youth. A college degree doesn't guarantee success.

Right after finishing my masters, my first job was as an inspector on a civil project (dam rehab). One of the things I had to do was review pay estimates (Davis-Bacon wages). The laborers were making virtually the same as me. There's nothing wrong with learning a trade.

[89Hen]

(dam rehab).

Hopefully it got you straightened out.

[AZGrizFan]

You already pay for someone else's degree but I understand the sentiments...and agree.

I think most of us have all argued and agreed that the push (in my case by boomer parents) to go to college, get a 4 yr degree regardless of anything else, was misguided. Not everyone needs a 4 yr degree. The more BS, BA, Masters, that are out there, the less power it has. Its importance is diluted. Why get a Bachelors like millions and millions of others? It's been watered down. And now you're starting to see employers looking for people that might not have the "education" but they have the skill set or the talent. The best candidate might not have a 4 yr degree...but they've been building computers and working in tech for the last 15 yrs. I know at the Bank that's what we're doing. And you are seeing more and more emphasis on people getting professional certifications than a post-graduate degree. They are more focused, specialized forms of education that actually prove you know what you're doing. A masters is good for some - but not all. And that's what we've turned higher ed into - one size fits all. Tech schools should be filled to the brim. In the South - being an HVAC repairman can earn you a nice living. If you branch out on your own, you can make a damn good living. Learn how to plumb, make the right connections and you can end up doing all the plumbing for a neighborhood or any building that's under construction and make a very fine living.

I honestly believe that the only thing a liberal arts higher education proves these days is that you can finish a degree. Terminal degrees, like engineering, law or medical are different.

A skilled trade is more than enough to support a family, and sadly that is not being emphasized enough to our youth. A college degree doesn't guarantee success.

Mark, I agree with your sentiments 100%. Chizzy used to piss and moan about the 700,000 newly printed Masters degrees being handed out each year as well.

Problem is, nobody (or not enough people) is listening to Mike Rowe. And AC/DC got it wrong: Dirty deeds, as it turns out, are NOT done dirt cheap. They are very, very expensive.

[SDHornet]

A skilled trade is more than enough to support a family, and sadly that is not being emphasized enough to our youth. A college degree doesn't guarantee success.

Right after finishing my masters, my first job was as an inspector on a civil project (dam rehab). One of the things I had to do was review pay estimates (Davis-Bacon wages). The laborers were making virtually the same as me. There's nothing wrong with learning a trade.

We just had a project on double shifts to get concrete rehab work done before the rains hit. You want to talk about burn rate.

[Ibanez]

You already pay for someone else's degree but I understand the sentiments...and agree.

I think most of us have all argued and agreed that the push (in my case by boomer parents) to go to college, get a 4 yr degree regardless of anything else, was misguided. Not everyone needs a 4 yr degree. The more BS, BA, Masters, that are out there, the less power it has. Its importance is diluted. Why get a Bachelors like millions and millions of others? It's been watered down. And now you're starting to see employers looking for people that might not have the "education" but they have the skill set or the talent. The best candidate might not have a 4 yr degree...but they've been building computers and working in tech for the last 15 yrs. I know at the Bank that's what we're doing. And you are seeing more and more emphasis on people getting professional certifications than a post-graduate degree. They are more focused, specialized forms of education that actually prove you know what you're doing. A masters is good for some - but not all. And that's what we've turned higher ed into - one size fits all. Tech schools should be filled to the brim. In the South - being an HVAC repairman can earn you a nice living. If you branch out on your own, you can make a damn good living. Learn how to plumb, make the right connections and you can end up doing all the plumbing for a neighborhood or any building that's under construction and make a very fine living.

I honestly believe that the only thing a liberal arts higher education proves these days is that you can finish a degree. Terminal degrees, like engineering, law or medical are different.

Yep. Hey, we agree on something.

Have you not been to the BBQ thread? We agree on that.

[Winterborn]

A skilled trade is more than enough to support a family, and sadly that is not being emphasized enough to our youth. A college degree doesn't guarantee success.

Right after finishing my masters, my first job was as an inspector on a civil project (dam rehab). One of the things I had to do was review pay estimates (Davis-Bacon wages). The laborers were making virtually the same as me. There's nothing wrong with learning a trade.

With a bit of dedication one can become licensed after working for a few years in a trade and then you really start making money. Especially as a plumber/electrician. I know a master electrician and he can't find enough help. Makes well over 6 figures a year.

[kalm]

I had to pay for my OWN college and my two kids college. I have ZERO desire to pay for someone else’s’ kids college unless I get a say in their major and can decide at any moment to pull my support if they aren’t meeting my expectations. That’s the requirements I put on MY kids, and it’s the only way I’d support my tax dollars paying for someone ELSE’S college degree.

You already pay for someone else's degree but I understand the sentiments...and agree.

I think most of us have all argued and agreed that the push (in my case by boomer parents) to go to college, get a 4 yr degree regardless of anything else, was misguided. Not everyone needs a 4 yr degree. The more BS, BA, Masters, that are out there, the less power it has. Its importance is diluted. Why get a Bachelors like millions and millions of others? It's been watered down. And now you're starting to see employers looking for people that might not have the "education" but they have the skill set or the talent. The best candidate might not have a 4 yr degree...but they've been building computers and working in tech for the last 15 yrs. I know at the Bank that's what we're doing. And you are seeing more and more emphasis on people getting professional certifications than a post-graduate degree. They are more focused, specialized forms of education that actually prove you know what you're doing. A masters is good for some - but not all. And that's what we've turned higher ed into - one size fits all. Tech schools should be filled to the brim. In the South - being an HVAC repairman can earn you a nice living. If you branch out on your own, you can make a damn good living. Learn how to plumb, make the right connections and you can end up doing all the plumbing for a neighborhood or any building that's under construction and make a very fine living.

I honestly believe that the only thing a liberal arts higher education proves these days is that you can finish a degree. Terminal degrees, like engineering, law or medical are different.

Well I would hope plumbers know how to make the right connections.

[Ibanez]

A skilled trade is more than enough to support a family, and sadly that is not being emphasized enough to our youth. A college degree doesn't guarantee success.

Mark, I agree with your sentiments 100%. Chizzy used to piss and moan about the 700,000 newly printed Masters degrees being handed out each year as well.

Problem is, nobody (or not enough people) is listening to Mike Rowe. And AC/DC got it wrong: Dirty deeds, as it turns out, are NOT done dirt cheap. They are very, very expensive.

I agree. Looking back - I should've done the 2+2 program. 2 yrs at a tech school before finishing a Bachelors at Coastal or El Cid. Would've been much cheaper. Also, should've gotten a real degree - and that's my fault. It's dirty work, but if you got into HVAC, Plumbing, Construction, Mechanics at an early and was smart about it - there is no excuse why you couldn't earn the median income of that trade or not more. More if you own the company.

Spoiler: show

My father in law is the dean of a culinary school at a Tech College. He's been teaching at Tech schools for over 20 years - there is a stigma that you're stupid if you go. I remember teasing my brother who went (and then dropped out). Boeing has poured millions into it in the past decade or so. That's where their mechanics come from. Volvo has done the same. They men and women that work on their lines are skilled and many of them come straight from the tech schools where Boeing, Volvo, BMW, America LaFrance, and more have designed curriculum to fit their needs. My cousin Catherine went through the program and she's makes a good living for herself (and cats.)

I think I shared this story but years ago I was at my in-laws house when they were having a gate installed. A friend of theirs teaches welding to high school students. These students will graduate with a HS diploma and a certificate for welding, auto mechanics, any number of skilled jobs. The guy had one of his students with him and we got to talking about what he was going to do after high school. He was 17, with a welding job ready for him at a nuclear power plant. Full benefits, 2nd shift, daily per diem for food and a $65,000/yr salary. Imagine being 17, no college debt, HS diploma, a skill and a making $65k/yr. They're from a poor area in Sumter, SC so that $65k is going to seem like $1M to him.

[GannonFan]

Right after finishing my masters, my first job was as an inspector on a civil project (dam rehab). One of the things I had to do was review pay estimates (Davis-Bacon wages). The laborers were making virtually the same as me. There's nothing wrong with learning a trade.

With a bit of dedication one can become licensed after working for a few years in a trade and then you really start making money. Especially as a plumber/electrician. I know a master electrician and he can't find enough help. Makes well over 6 figures a year.

Yup, I don't know a single contractor in pretty much any trade that is desperate to find work. On the contrary, they're turning down work left and right because they don't have the manpower to do it all. But it's not 9-5, 5 day a week work, and it's not sitting in an office, so it's not attractive to the students we're churning out of schools these days.

[Ibanez]

Right after finishing my masters, my first job was as an inspector on a civil project (dam rehab). One of the things I had to do was review pay estimates (Davis-Bacon wages). The laborers were making virtually the same as me. There's nothing wrong with learning a trade.

With a bit of dedication one can become licensed after working for a few years in a trade and then you really start making money. Especially as a plumber/electrician. I know a master electrician and he can't find enough help. Makes well over 6 figures a year.

I believe it it. And those guys are busy. It took me 4 months to get an electrician out to my house and then another 2 before he was able to provide an estimate. They stay busy.
My neighbor owns a family landscaping/tree company. They are one of the few that will cut down trees and he can't find good people to do the job. He just spent $175K to have a machine from Italy be built and sent here. According to his math, that machine will pay for itself within a few years.

[Winterborn]

With a bit of dedication one can become licensed after working for a few years in a trade and then you really start making money. Especially as a plumber/electrician. I know a master electrician and he can't find enough help. Makes well over 6 figures a year.

I believe it it. And those guys are busy. It took me 4 months to get an electrician out to my house and then another 2 before he was able to provide an estimate. They stay busy.
My neighbor owns a family landscaping/tree company. They are one of the few that will cut down trees and he can't find good people to do the job. He just spent $175K to have a machine from Italy be built and sent here. According to his math, that machine will pay for itself within a few years.

I know a master welder that only works 6 months a year and takes the other 6 months off (same with a heavy crane operator). Both of them make over 200k a year, it took them 10 years to get there (certifications, etc.) but they stuck to it and now spend all winter ice fishing and going on hunting trips.

The welder specialized in pipe and underwater welding.The guy can lay a bead that looks like a robot welder did it. He is an artist.

Crane operator does demo/building work in hard to reach places. He told me a story were he was demoing a bridge in Alaska with he set his hyd. breaker on the concrete between his tracks and the concrete broke away and he could see the trees 75 feet below. Another time he was in a crane at the end of a bridge and once your in the cab, you are there for the full 12 hour shift. There is no going down for a bathroom break. You bring your lunch buck and a piss bottle with you. It is not glamorous, but more than pays the bills.

[Ibanez]

I believe it it. And those guys are busy. It took me 4 months to get an electrician out to my house and then another 2 before he was able to provide an estimate. They stay busy.
My neighbor owns a family landscaping/tree company. They are one of the few that will cut down trees and he can't find good people to do the job. He just spent $175K to have a machine from Italy be built and sent here. According to his math, that machine will pay for itself within a few years.

I know a master welder that only works 6 months a year and takes the other 6 months off (same with a heavy crane operator). Both of them make over 200k a year, it took them 10 years to get there (certifications, etc.) but they stuck to it and now spend all winter ice fishing and going on hunting trips.

The welder specialized in pipe and underwater welding.The guy can lay a bead that looks like a robot welder did it. He is an artist.

Crane operator does demo/building work in hard to reach places. He told me a story were he was demoing a bridge in Alaska with he set his hyd. breaker on the concrete between his tracks and the concrete broke away and he could see the trees 75 feet below. Another time he was in a crane at the end of a bridge and once your in the cab, you are there for the full 12 hour shift. There is no going down for a bathroom break. You bring your lunch buck and a piss bottle with you. It is not glamorous, but more than pays the bills.

There's an underwater welding school in Charleston. A friend went through it and went from making $60k/yr to over $100/yr PLUS all the travel that goes along with it. Those guys get sent all over the world. You have to put in the time and effort, as with anything, and you can live well, support your family and have a real sense of accomplishment.

[Winterborn]

I know a master welder that only works 6 months a year and takes the other 6 months off (same with a heavy crane operator). Both of them make over 200k a year, it took them 10 years to get there (certifications, etc.) but they stuck to it and now spend all winter ice fishing and going on hunting trips.

The welder specialized in pipe and underwater welding.The guy can lay a bead that looks like a robot welder did it. He is an artist.

Crane operator does demo/building work in hard to reach places. He told me a story were he was demoing a bridge in Alaska with he set his hyd. breaker on the concrete between his tracks and the concrete broke away and he could see the trees 75 feet below. Another time he was in a crane at the end of a bridge and once your in the cab, you are there for the full 12 hour shift. There is no going down for a bathroom break. You bring your lunch buck and a piss bottle with you. It is not glamorous, but more than pays the bills.

There's an underwater welding school in Charleston. A friend went through it and went from making $60k/yr to over $100/yr PLUS all the travel that goes along with it. Those guys get sent all over the world. You have to put in the time and effort, as with anything, and you can live well, support your family and have a real sense of accomplishment.

Yup, it does take time.

Personally I think the workforce problem is two fold. One is people being steered into degrees that are of limited use and the second is the lack of patience in that it takes time to move up in a company/career. Things do not happen overnight and outside of a select few circumstances one does not make 100k right out of college.