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89Hen wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:29 amWater is wet.

kalm wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:24 am “Secular” values that is.

Is this good or bad for America? Given the association between Trumpism, Covid denial, and evangelicals, I’d say it’s obviously a good thing. I would trust the values and grace of a proclaimed atheist over an evangelical these days:

“On issues that the religious right has held some sway in recent years, there is evidence of a counterbalance among secular “value voters.”

For example, while the religious have been more likely to oppose same-sex marriage, secular Americans are more likely to support it, and by significant margins. A recent Pew study found that 79% of secular Americans are supportive, compared to 66% of white mainline Protestants, 61% of Catholics, 44% of Black Protestants and 29% of white evangelicals.

There are many additional values that are prominent among secular Americans. For example, the U.S. Secular Survey of 2020 – the largest survey of nonreligious Americans ever conducted, with nearly 34,000 participants – found strong support for safeguarding the separation of church and state.

Other studies have found that secular Americans strongly support women’s reproductive rights, women working in the paid labor force, the DACA program, death with dignity and opposition to the death penalty.

[Expertise in your inbox. Sign up for The Conversation’s newsletter and get expert takes on today’s news, every day.]”

https://theconversation.com/secular-val ... lts-151953

AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:10 pm

kalm wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:24 am “Secular” values that is.

Is this good or bad for America? Given the association between Trumpism, Covid denial, and evangelicals, I’d say it’s obviously a good thing. I would trust the values and grace of a proclaimed atheist over an evangelical these days:

“On issues that the religious right has held some sway in recent years, there is evidence of a counterbalance among secular “value voters.”

For example, while the religious have been more likely to oppose same-sex marriage, secular Americans are more likely to support it, and by significant margins. A recent Pew study found that 79% of secular Americans are supportive, compared to 66% of white mainline Protestants, 61% of Catholics, 44% of Black Protestants and 29% of white evangelicals.

There are many additional values that are prominent among secular Americans. For example, the U.S. Secular Survey of 2020 – the largest survey of nonreligious Americans ever conducted, with nearly 34,000 participants – found strong support for safeguarding the separation of church and state.

Other studies have found that secular Americans strongly support women’s reproductive rights, women working in the paid labor force, the DACA program, death with dignity and opposition to the death penalty.

[Expertise in your inbox. Sign up for The Conversation’s newsletter and get expert takes on today’s news, every day.]”

https://theconversation.com/secular-val ... lts-151953

It’s the atheists that burned Minneapolis, Kenosha, Seattle, Portland, etc., etc.

trust their “values” at your peril.

JoltinJoe wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:55 pm

AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:10 pm

It’s the atheists that burned Minneapolis, Kenosha, Seattle, Portland, etc., etc.

trust their “values” at your peril.

The extreme left in this country doesn't have values.

They have stances or positions.

JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:03 pm

JoltinJoe wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:55 pm


The extreme left in this country doesn't have values.

They have stances or positions.

What you are calling the "extreme left" does have values. They are radically egalitarian. I think that sometimes they are unrealistic. But they have values.

JoltinJoe wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:55 pm

AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:10 pm
It’s the atheists that burned Minneapolis, Kenosha, Seattle, Portland, etc., etc.

trust their “values” at your peril.

The atheists and the others on the extreme left in this country don't have values.

They have stances or positions.

JoltinJoe wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:07 pm

JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:03 pm

What you are calling the "extreme left" does have values. They are radically egalitarian. I think that sometimes they are unrealistic. But they have values.

They do not.

They are radically anarchistic.

They will destroy this country if followed.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:43 pm

JoltinJoe wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:55 pm

The atheists and the others on the extreme left in this country don't have values.

They have stances or positions.

Secularism ≠ atheism

JoltinJoe wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:44 am

UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:43 pm

Secularism ≠ atheism

Every history books says you're wrong.

You see, there is a huge difference between the secularist who lives next to you and the secularist who is politically active.

The secularist next door is a good guy who is fun to have beers with and watch football on Sunday. He works hard, supports his family, and does everything the church-goer does. He's been fed a lot of mixed messages by society, though, and in his more drunken moments will admit to be curiously unsatisfied and burdened with anxiety and stress. He buys a nice new car and feels a rush for a few weeks. But then he's back to these empty feelings that haunt him when all is quiet. He's bought into secularism, however, and does not know or comprehend the joy of wanting nothing (at least not anything material).

Then there are the secularists who are politically active. They are not like your friend next door. They are driven atheists who try to pretend they are like your neighbor next door, whom they have seduced through prideful appeals to their reason and intellect. "God is a silly belief, you are too smart to fall for that." If the guy next door ever stops and realizes how much happier his faithful friends are, he is told that these "fanatics" (because all religious people are fanatics) are delusional and weak people -- and "you are not a weak person."

What the latter realize is that they will win and conquer "faith" simply by convincing people to think like the decent, good-guy next door. And eventually they will command that all "devotion" be to the "state" and, of course, that means the "party."

Do you have physical and spiritual needs? Not to fear, the party will provide for you! (And now you've become so desperate that you will not even consider that the party which provides for you has, in truth, created your needs.

What I have written above is a colloquial adaption of the writings of Stalin. Merry Christmas! O, sorry, happy holidays.

AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:10 pm

kalm wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:24 am “Secular” values that is.

Is this good or bad for America? Given the association between Trumpism, Covid denial, and evangelicals, I’d say it’s obviously a good thing. I would trust the values and grace of a proclaimed atheist over an evangelical these days:

“On issues that the religious right has held some sway in recent years, there is evidence of a counterbalance among secular “value voters.”

For example, while the religious have been more likely to oppose same-sex marriage, secular Americans are more likely to support it, and by significant margins. A recent Pew study found that 79% of secular Americans are supportive, compared to 66% of white mainline Protestants, 61% of Catholics, 44% of Black Protestants and 29% of white evangelicals.

There are many additional values that are prominent among secular Americans. For example, the U.S. Secular Survey of 2020 – the largest survey of nonreligious Americans ever conducted, with nearly 34,000 participants – found strong support for safeguarding the separation of church and state.

Other studies have found that secular Americans strongly support women’s reproductive rights, women working in the paid labor force, the DACA program, death with dignity and opposition to the death penalty.

[Expertise in your inbox. Sign up for The Conversation’s newsletter and get expert takes on today’s news, every day.]”

https://theconversation.com/secular-val ... lts-151953

It’s the atheists that burned Minneapolis, Kenosha, Seattle, Portland, etc., etc.

trust their “values” at your peril.

JoltinJoe wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:44 am

UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:43 pm
Secularism ≠ atheism

Every history books says you're wrong.

You see, there is a huge difference between the secularist who lives next to you and the secularist who is politically active.

The secularist next door is a good guy who is fun to have beers with and watch football on Sunday. He works hard, supports his family, and does everything the church-goer does. He's been fed a lot of mixed messages by society, though, and in his more drunken moments will admit to be curiously unsatisfied and burdened with anxiety and stress. He buys a nice new car and feels a rush for a few weeks. But then he's back to these empty feelings that haunt him when all is quiet. He's bought into secularism, however, and does not know or comprehend the joy of wanting nothing (at least not anything material).

Then there are the secularists who are politically active. They are not like your friend next door. They are driven atheists who try to pretend they are like your neighbor next door, whom they have seduced through prideful appeals to their reason and intellect. "God is a silly belief, you are too smart to fall for that." If the guy next door ever stops and realizes how much happier his faithful friends are, he is told that these "fanatics" (because all religious people are fanatics) are delusional and weak people -- and "you are not a weak person."

What the latter realize is that they will win and conquer "faith" simply by convincing people to think like the decent, good-guy next door. And eventually they will command that all "devotion" be to the "state" and, of course, that means the "party."

Do you have physical and spiritual needs? Not to fear, the party will provide for you! (And now you've become so desperate that you will not even consider that the party which provides for you has, in truth, created your needs.

What I have written above is a colloquial adaption of the writings of Stalin. Merry Christmas! O, sorry, happy holidays.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:20 am

JoltinJoe wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:44 am

Every history books says you're wrong.

You see, there is a huge difference between the secularist who lives next to you and the secularist who is politically active.

The secularist next door is a good guy who is fun to have beers with and watch football on Sunday. He works hard, supports his family, and does everything the church-goer does. He's been fed a lot of mixed messages by society, though, and in his more drunken moments will admit to be curiously unsatisfied and burdened with anxiety and stress. He buys a nice new car and feels a rush for a few weeks. But then he's back to these empty feelings that haunt him when all is quiet. He's bought into secularism, however, and does not know or comprehend the joy of wanting nothing (at least not anything material).

Then there are the secularists who are politically active. They are not like your friend next door. They are driven atheists who try to pretend they are like your neighbor next door, whom they have seduced through prideful appeals to their reason and intellect. "God is a silly belief, you are too smart to fall for that." If the guy next door ever stops and realizes how much happier his faithful friends are, he is told that these "fanatics" (because all religious people are fanatics) are delusional and weak people -- and "you are not a weak person."

What the latter realize is that they will win and conquer "faith" simply by convincing people to think like the decent, good-guy next door. And eventually they will command that all "devotion" be to the "state" and, of course, that means the "party."

Do you have physical and spiritual needs? Not to fear, the party will provide for you! (And now you've become so desperate that you will not even consider that the party which provides for you has, in truth, created your needs.

What I have written above is a colloquial adaption of the writings of Stalin. Merry Christmas! O, sorry, happy holidays.

sec·u·lar·ism
/ˈsekyələˌrizəm/
noun
the principle of separation of the state from religious institutions.

I believe in God and I'm a secularist. Was Erasmus a practicing catholic and an atheist?

I might be the secularist next door but I don't consider myself overly materialistic. In fact, my ex who attends church regularly is much more materialistic than me. She was upset with me for taking what was essentially a 5-year sabbatical to substitute teach in a low-income school district. It didn't cause our divorce but it definitely accelerated it. I look back on those 5 years of trading money for making a difference in kids' lives as extremely fulfilling and am more than glad that I did it.

IMO, the driven atheists that you describe are mirror images of driven evangelists. Both want to impose their "religious" values on everyone else. As I posted earlier, the religion of the ctrl-left is big government.

FYI - My parents had more to do with laying the foundation for my values than my faith.

Merry Christmas Joe!

kalm wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:09 pm

UNI88 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:20 am

sec·u·lar·ism
/ˈsekyələˌrizəm/
noun
the principle of separation of the state from religious institutions.

I believe in God and I'm a secularist. Was Erasmus a practicing catholic and an atheist?

I might be the secularist next door but I don't consider myself overly materialistic. In fact, my ex who attends church regularly is much more materialistic than me. She was upset with me for taking what was essentially a 5-year sabbatical to substitute teach in a low-income school district. It didn't cause our divorce but it definitely accelerated it. I look back on those 5 years of trading money for making a difference in kids' lives as extremely fulfilling and am more than glad that I did it.

IMO, the driven atheists that you describe are mirror images of driven evangelists. Both want to impose their "religious" values on everyone else. As I posted earlier, the religion of the ctrl-left is big government.

FYI - My parents had more to do with laying the foundation for my values than my faith.

Merry Christmas Joe!

Great post!

(but I’m sorry, you will still be going to hell. )

Also glad to know that atheists are not necessarily the same as anarchists. If those two forces ever joined, we’d all be in trouble...or at least as confused as Joe.

JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:05 am

JoltinJoe wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:07 pm

They do not.

They are radically anarchistic.

They will destroy this country if followed.

Actually I think that most on what we call the extreme left are for a very involved and proactive central government that will enforce their egalitarian values. They, for example, want government to force bakers to bake cakes for homosexual weddings. They want government to force racists who own businesses to deal with black people. They want to force employers to have "diverse" workforces. They want government to re-distribute income. So on and so forth. I don't think they are anarchists at all.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:20 am

JoltinJoe wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:44 am

Every history books says you're wrong.

You see, there is a huge difference between the secularist who lives next to you and the secularist who is politically active.

The secularist next door is a good guy who is fun to have beers with and watch football on Sunday. He works hard, supports his family, and does everything the church-goer does. He's been fed a lot of mixed messages by society, though, and in his more drunken moments will admit to be curiously unsatisfied and burdened with anxiety and stress. He buys a nice new car and feels a rush for a few weeks. But then he's back to these empty feelings that haunt him when all is quiet. He's bought into secularism, however, and does not know or comprehend the joy of wanting nothing (at least not anything material).

Then there are the secularists who are politically active. They are not like your friend next door. They are driven atheists who try to pretend they are like your neighbor next door, whom they have seduced through prideful appeals to their reason and intellect. "God is a silly belief, you are too smart to fall for that." If the guy next door ever stops and realizes how much happier his faithful friends are, he is told that these "fanatics" (because all religious people are fanatics) are delusional and weak people -- and "you are not a weak person."

What the latter realize is that they will win and conquer "faith" simply by convincing people to think like the decent, good-guy next door. And eventually they will command that all "devotion" be to the "state" and, of course, that means the "party."

Do you have physical and spiritual needs? Not to fear, the party will provide for you! (And now you've become so desperate that you will not even consider that the party which provides for you has, in truth, created your needs.

What I have written above is a colloquial adaption of the writings of Stalin. Merry Christmas! O, sorry, happy holidays.

sec·u·lar·ism
/ˈsekyələˌrizəm/
noun
the principle of separation of the state from religious institutions.

I believe in God and I'm a secularist. Was Erasmus a practicing catholic and an atheist?

I might be the secularist next door but I don't consider myself overly materialistic. In fact, my ex who attends church regularly is much more materialistic than me. She was upset with me for taking what was essentially a 5-year sabbatical to substitute teach in a low-income school district. It didn't cause our divorce but it definitely accelerated it. I look back on those 5 years of trading money for making a difference in kids' lives as extremely fulfilling and am more than glad that I did it.

IMO, the driven atheists that you describe are mirror images of driven evangelists. Both want to impose their "religious" values on everyone else. As I posted earlier, the religion of the ctrl-left is big government.

FYI - My parents had more to do with laying the foundation for my values than my faith.

Merry Christmas Joe!

JoltinJoe wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:35 pm

kalm wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:09 pm

Great post!

(but I’m sorry, you will still be going to hell. )

Also glad to know that atheists are not necessarily the same as anarchists. If those two forces ever joined, we’d all be in trouble...or at least as confused as Joe.

You remind me of Verkhovensky. He held that atheists are not all anarchists.

But, as it turned out, the issue isn't that "atheists are not necessarily the same as anarchists."

The problem is that all anarchists are atheists.

And if you think that the two forces have never joined, then you need to study 20th century history a lot more.

Gil Dobie wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:29 pm I tend not to judge people based on the wide brush of their religious beliefs, but based on their individual actions.

kalm wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:22 pm

Gil Dobie wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:29 pm I tend not to judge people based on the wide brush of their religious beliefs, but based on their individual actions.

Me too, Gil. But many people believe we get our values through religion and we make decisions as a nation based on values.

Whether it’s economic stimulus, freedom, or social distancing/mask wearing, the right is losing ground in this battle.

AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:04 pm

kalm wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:22 pm

Me too, Gil. But many people believe we get our values through religion and we make decisions as a nation based on values.

Whether it’s economic stimulus, freedom, or social distancing/mask wearing, the right is losing ground in this battle.

Wrong. We’re fighting a different battle. For the absolute survival of our country as it was imagined.

kalm wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:22 pm

Gil Dobie wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:29 pm I tend not to judge people based on the wide brush of their religious beliefs, but based on their individual actions.

Me too, Gil. But many people believe we get our values through religion and we make decisions as a nation based on values.

Whether it’s economic stimulus, freedom, or social distancing/mask wearing, the right is losing ground in this battle.

JoltinJoe wrote:

UNI88 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:20 am sec·u·lar·ism
/ˈsekyələˌrizəm/
noun
the principle of separation of the state from religious institutions.

I believe in God and I'm a secularist. Was Erasmus a practicing catholic and an atheist?

I might be the secularist next door but I don't consider myself overly materialistic. In fact, my ex who attends church regularly is much more materialistic than me. She was upset with me for taking what was essentially a 5-year sabbatical to substitute teach in a low-income school district. It didn't cause our divorce but it definitely accelerated it. I look back on those 5 years of trading money for making a difference in kids' lives as extremely fulfilling and am more than glad that I did it.

IMO, the driven atheists that you describe are mirror images of driven evangelists. Both want to impose their "religious" values on everyone else. As I posted earlier, the religion of the ctrl-left is big government.

FYI - My parents had more to do with laying the foundation for my values than my faith.

Merry Christmas Joe!

Webster defines secularism as: "indifference to or rejection or exclusion of religion and religious considerations." That is the historical, philosophical, and theological understanding of the term.

I know there's been a recent attempt to redefine "secularism" as per the definition you've found. In fact, the academics who edit the Oxford Dictionary have recently redefined "secularism" so that it now means nothing more than "separation of church and state."

Just like "court packing" has recently been changed due to recent political considerations.

So you are comfortable claiming to be a secularist because you believe in the separation of church and state.

Erasmus may have accepted the concept of separation of church and state, but he never would have identified himself as a "secularist," at least as a mature thinker. That's modern spin to make people feel comfortable.