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I don’t pretend to know everything that caused the nation to be such ripe pickings for a hustler like Trump. We all know some of the causes: cultural starvation that created a yearning for rabid partisanship as a simulacrum, economic transformation, weak political parties, atomization of media, the ease of employing mob tactics in the digital age, and on and on. In fact, Trump has been a big and messy enough symptom that one can find his origins in almost any longstanding ill he or she wishes. Confirmation bias didn’t just help make Trump possible; it has confused the work of an honest, complete diagnosis.

This is the kind of algebraic thinking that makes it so hard to address serious problems in America. If one already knows the product of the equation is that their opponents are to blame, solving for X is just a matter of looking for a root cause that originates on the other side. Satisfied that it’s somebody else’s fault, the mind closes with a pleasing “snap.”

The truth about complicated matters such as these is seldom satisfying since no side or group can escape completely unscathed. Indeed, the prevalence of this motivated reasoning is in itself evidence of one of the leading causes of Trump’s acquisition of power and the enthusiastic support by millions for his abuses of it........

The evidence comes from across the country. It transcends divisions of politics, economics, education, ethnicity and gender. You’ve got the nephew of a former president all the way down to a post-adolescent YouTube wannabe. What connects them—the same thing that threatens the health of the republic—is rank imbecility.

GannonFan wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:00 am I agree with the premise of the article - we have an incredible number of dumb people in this country. Granted, we've always had an incredible number of dumb people in this country, but perhaps we're at a tipping point and the few smart folks we do have aren't enough to keep us from falling into the precipice?

I'm not sure schools are the answer - we had an incredible number of dumb people even back in the halcyon days when we thought schools were great and we were bringing apples into the teachers for a job well done. To me, I think the difference now, and has been really for the past 20 or so years, is the ability for incredibly dumb people to not only have their voices and their dim ideas amplified for more to hear, but for them to find other incredibly dumb people to glam on to and feel justified that their dumb ideas have merit. Ever since newspapers went digital and there was an easy section for comments after every story, the incredibly dumb folks have had an avenue they didn't really have before to shout to the rooftops. And now we have message boards and Twitter and Facebook and other social media so there's even more ways for incredibly dumb folks to be heard and to have an audience. I'm not sure what the answer will be for this, it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle. The Dems will try with their truth commissions and reality police, but going full on fascist/Maoist/whatever-you-want-to-call-it-authoritarianism isn't going to make these people any more intelligent and the internet isn't going away anytime soon.

kalm wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:09 am Hard to disagree. I’ve long contended that our education system is fine if you live in a supportive district with stable households and parental involvement. But this article, while short on solutions, at least gets me rethinking the importance and need for serious reform.

The question is, in light of current politics what can be done? Restored emphasis on teaching critical thinking and civics? Better, more informed participation from parents?

canyoncat wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:19 am A subject high school kids need around Junior or Senior year is finance. I work for a mid-size credit union here in Montana and it is crazy to see how people don't know what goes into their credit score, how credit cards affect your score good and bad, student loan debt and how much some people have piled up and having them either deferred or just not paying them. Those who need student loans for school really need counseling on what they are getting into. What to look for when financing a vehicle, do you really need that service contract, oil plan or GAP. What is your trade really worth and how much do you owe on that trade so you are not horribly upside down and trying to finance in the difference.

∞∞∞ wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:18 amOh the irony of thinking a violent event is the only solution to people not caring about others. So caring.

∞∞∞ wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:18 amAnyways people really overthink this stuff. Invest into education, pay people fairly, have strong social safety nets, build accessible housing...just make it so regular people aren't worried if they can pay for food, see the doctor, or retire.

∞∞∞ wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:51 am Yes, all jobs are worth paying a living wage; everyone should be able to live on 40 hours a week. It used to be that poverty was an issue of being unemployed, not that you weren't paid enough. If an employer can't pay a living wage, they shouldn't be in business (I think it was FDR which said something similar). When the minimum wage was created, it was intended from the onset to be a livable wage.

I can agree to a variable minimum wage adjusted for location though.

And housing needs to be built upwards, at least in urban areas. I live in NoVA and we're gonna become the next San Fran or Seattle because apparently people expect land in a densely populated area. Want to live in an urban area? You have to deal with density, housing included.

I'm not informed enough to tackle the education question...smarter people can figure it out. All I know is studies have shown that education, dollar-for-dollar, typically has the best ROI for a society: stability, efficiency, technologically, medically, socially, economically (all intertwined).

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:13 am

∞∞∞ wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:51 am Yes, all jobs are worth paying a living wage; everyone should be able to live on 40 hours a week. It used to be that poverty was an issue of being unemployed, not that you weren't paid enough. If an employer can't pay a living wage, they shouldn't be in business (I think it was FDR which said something similar). When the minimum wage was created, it was intended from the onset to be a livable wage.

I can agree to a variable minimum wage adjusted for location though.

And housing needs to be built upwards, at least in urban areas. I live in NoVA and we're gonna become the next San Fran or Seattle because apparently people expect land in a densely populated area. Want to live in an urban area? You have to deal with density, housing included.

I'm not informed enough to tackle the education question...smarter people can figure it out. All I know is studies have shown that education, dollar-for-dollar, typically has the best ROI for a society: stability, efficiency, technologically, medically, socially, economically (all intertwined).

We disagree on paying everyone a living wage. I don't think a high schooler necessarily needs a living wage and I'm not sure that someone mopping the floors should be paid enough to make enough to support a family of four in Queens. I also think that employers that don't want to pay a living wage will automate some functions to avoid the higher costs of labor.

I agree that we should be building up in urban areas but that requires a change in expectations. Parents tend to dream of raising their kids in a house with a yard. They'll need to adapt to raising their kids in a highrise that is hopefully near a park.

I'm with you on education, I just don't trust the federal government to make it better. Education should be considered infrastructure to be invested in. It's a critical element of the USA being the land of opportunity. Give the states funding and more freedom to find what is best for them. I would rather have 50 states as laboratories working on improving education than a bunch of ivory tower academics coming up with a theoretical approach they think will work for everyone.

∞∞∞ wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:18 am Oh the irony of thinking a violent event is the only solution to people not caring about others. So caring.

Anyways people really overthink this stuff. Invest into education, pay people fairly, have strong social safety nets, build accessible housing...just make it so regular people aren't worried if they can pay for food, see the doctor, or retire.

When you create a dog-eat-dog society, you can't be surprised when the dogs eat each other.

∞∞∞ wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:51 am And housing needs to be built upwards, at least in urban areas. I live in NoVA and we're gonna become the next San Fran or Seattle because apparently people expect land in a densely populated area. Want to live in an urban area? You have to deal with density, housing included.

kalm wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:09 am Hard to disagree. I’ve long contended that our education system is fine if you live in a supportive district with stable households and parental involvement. But this article, while short on solutions, at least gets me rethinking the importance and need for serious reform.

The question is, in light of current politics what can be done? Restored emphasis on teaching critical thinking and civics? Better, more informed participation from parents?

(Side note: reading the about info for the Dispatch has me interested in following them a bit. )

I don’t pretend to know everything that caused the nation to be such ripe pickings for a hustler like Trump. We all know some of the causes: cultural starvation that created a yearning for rabid partisanship as a simulacrum, economic transformation, weak political parties, atomization of media, the ease of employing mob tactics in the digital age, and on and on. In fact, Trump has been a big and messy enough symptom that one can find his origins in almost any longstanding ill he or she wishes. Confirmation bias didn’t just help make Trump possible; it has confused the work of an honest, complete diagnosis.

This is the kind of algebraic thinking that makes it so hard to address serious problems in America. If one already knows the product of the equation is that their opponents are to blame, solving for X is just a matter of looking for a root cause that originates on the other side. Satisfied that it’s somebody else’s fault, the mind closes with a pleasing “snap.”

The truth about complicated matters such as these is seldom satisfying since no side or group can escape completely unscathed. Indeed, the prevalence of this motivated reasoning is in itself evidence of one of the leading causes of Trump’s acquisition of power and the enthusiastic support by millions for his abuses of it........

The evidence comes from across the country. It transcends divisions of politics, economics, education, ethnicity and gender. You’ve got the nephew of a former president all the way down to a post-adolescent YouTube wannabe. What connects them—the same thing that threatens the health of the republic—is rank imbecility.

https://thedispatch.com/p/the-dangers-o ... jGkzQPr8pw

89Hen wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:53 am We're also practically like the lemmings in Wall-E already, attached to our devices. It's disgusting.

kalm wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:09 am Hard to disagree. I’ve long contended that our education system is fine if you live in a supportive district with stable households and parental involvement. But this article, while short on solutions, at least gets me rethinking the importance and need for serious reform.

The question is, in light of current politics what can be done? Restored emphasis on teaching critical thinking and civics? Better, more informed participation from parents?

(Side note: reading the about info for the Dispatch has me interested in following them a bit. )

I don’t pretend to know everything that caused the nation to be such ripe pickings for a hustler like Trump. We all know some of the causes: cultural starvation that created a yearning for rabid partisanship as a simulacrum, economic transformation, weak political parties, atomization of media, the ease of employing mob tactics in the digital age, and on and on. In fact, Trump has been a big and messy enough symptom that one can find his origins in almost any longstanding ill he or she wishes. Confirmation bias didn’t just help make Trump possible; it has confused the work of an honest, complete diagnosis.

This is the kind of algebraic thinking that makes it so hard to address serious problems in America. If one already knows the product of the equation is that their opponents are to blame, solving for X is just a matter of looking for a root cause that originates on the other side. Satisfied that it’s somebody else’s fault, the mind closes with a pleasing “snap.”

The truth about complicated matters such as these is seldom satisfying since no side or group can escape completely unscathed. Indeed, the prevalence of this motivated reasoning is in itself evidence of one of the leading causes of Trump’s acquisition of power and the enthusiastic support by millions for his abuses of it........

The evidence comes from across the country. It transcends divisions of politics, economics, education, ethnicity and gender. You’ve got the nephew of a former president all the way down to a post-adolescent YouTube wannabe. What connects them—the same thing that threatens the health of the republic—is rank imbecility.

https://thedispatch.com/p/the-dangers-o ... jGkzQPr8pw

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:13 am

∞∞∞ wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:51 am Yes, all jobs are worth paying a living wage; everyone should be able to live on 40 hours a week. It used to be that poverty was an issue of being unemployed, not that you weren't paid enough. If an employer can't pay a living wage, they shouldn't be in business (I think it was FDR which said something similar). When the minimum wage was created, it was intended from the onset to be a livable wage.

I can agree to a variable minimum wage adjusted for location though.

And housing needs to be built upwards, at least in urban areas. I live in NoVA and we're gonna become the next San Fran or Seattle because apparently people expect land in a densely populated area. Want to live in an urban area? You have to deal with density, housing included.

I'm not informed enough to tackle the education question...smarter people can figure it out. All I know is studies have shown that education, dollar-for-dollar, typically has the best ROI for a society: stability, efficiency, technologically, medically, socially, economically (all intertwined).

We disagree on paying everyone a living wage. I don't think a high schooler necessarily needs a living wage and I'm not sure that someone mopping the floors should be paid enough to make enough to support a family of four in Queens. I also think that employers that don't want to pay a living wage will automate some functions to avoid the higher costs of labor.

I agree that we should be building up in urban areas but that requires a change in expectations. Parents tend to dream of raising their kids in a house with a yard. They'll need to adapt to raising their kids in a highrise that is hopefully near a park.

I'm with you on education, I just don't trust the federal government to make it better. Education should be considered infrastructure to be invested in. It's a critical element of the USA being the land of opportunity. Give the states funding and more freedom to find what is best for them. I would rather have 50 states as laboratories working on improving education than a bunch of ivory tower academics coming up with a theoretical approach they think will work for everyone.

GannonFan wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:37 am

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:13 am

We disagree on paying everyone a living wage. I don't think a high schooler necessarily needs a living wage and I'm not sure that someone mopping the floors should be paid enough to make enough to support a family of four in Queens. I also think that employers that don't want to pay a living wage will automate some functions to avoid the higher costs of labor.

I agree that we should be building up in urban areas but that requires a change in expectations. Parents tend to dream of raising their kids in a house with a yard. They'll need to adapt to raising their kids in a highrise that is hopefully near a park.

I'm with you on education, I just don't trust the federal government to make it better. Education should be considered infrastructure to be invested in. It's a critical element of the USA being the land of opportunity. Give the states funding and more freedom to find what is best for them. I would rather have 50 states as laboratories working on improving education than a bunch of ivory tower academics coming up with a theoretical approach they think will work for everyone.

The living wage thing is far more complicated than what Trip is laying out. What does "living" mean anyway? What's included in that? Decent house? What kind of house? How big? Where's it located? Include 3 meals a day? What kind of meals? Only food you can make at home? What about takeout food or a restaurant, and if you do include going out for food, how often is the right amount? What about other things? How about a car or Uber service? Can you even take Uber while on a "living" wage? How about a cell phone for everyone? What brand and how current the version? Unlimited data? How about streaming services? Is Netflix included? How about vacations? Is it "living" to be able to afford a week down the beach or in the mountains? Renting a house or staying in hotels? What other kind of entertainment? How many movies in theaters or live music shows is included in "living" per year? Starts to get really complicated when you need to come up with a dollar amount of what constitutes "living". Especially when someone with more means can have more "living" than you do.

And UNI's right, you start raising the cost of labor, and it's not brain surgery to predict that people will reduce labor when the costs go up. Go into a McDonald's these days, one of the refurbished ones, and tell me what you see. Where you used to have multiple people at the counter ready to take an order, now you have kiosks that you walk up to, touchscreen in your order, and you wait until it shows up on the counter. You don't need to talk to anyone, which is great because there's so many less people working there than before. Sure, the ones left are probably making a little more money, but they're doing so at the expense of the elimination of several other positions. I work in manufacturing. We still manufacture a crap load of stuff in this country. Thing is, we do so by designing out the people - do everything with the fewest number of people possible, automate wherever you can.

And the housing thing is a tough one too. Again, if you have the means, you can always have more. You can have the big house, the big yard, the fancy lawn equipment, etc. So the poor guy on the "living" wage is going to wonder how come he can't live like that too.

I've always said, I'm fine with increasing the minimum wage. But we need to be realistic what that means and how long it lasts. Increase minimum wage and it absolutely means less employment in exchange for better buying power for those that get to keep their jobs, but it also leads to inflationary pressures that, in the long run, negate the increased buying power those folks had in the short term. It's a feel good measure that doesn't do a whole lot, but it does displace some lower rung workers in the meantime.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:50 pm

kalm wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:09 am Hard to disagree. I’ve long contended that our education system is fine if you live in a supportive district with stable households and parental involvement. But this article, while short on solutions, at least gets me rethinking the importance and need for serious reform.

The question is, in light of current politics what can be done? Restored emphasis on teaching critical thinking and civics? Better, more informed participation from parents?

(Side note: reading the about info for the Dispatch has me interested in following them a bit. )



https://thedispatch.com/p/the-dangers-o ... jGkzQPr8pw

We need to expand how we define idiot so that we include in the pool all of the marks that think socialism will work this time. They're being hustled too.

AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:17 pm

kalm wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:09 am Hard to disagree. I’ve long contended that our education system is fine if you live in a supportive district with stable households and parental involvement. But this article, while short on solutions, at least gets me rethinking the importance and need for serious reform.

The question is, in light of current politics what can be done? Restored emphasis on teaching critical thinking and civics? Better, more informed participation from parents?

(Side note: reading the about info for the Dispatch has me interested in following them a bit. )



https://thedispatch.com/p/the-dangers-o ... jGkzQPr8pw

I think where he misses the boat is that Trump was far from the first hustler to come along and be elected.

kalm wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:53 pm

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:50 pm
We need to expand how we define idiot so that we include in the pool all of the marks that think socialism will work this time. They're being hustled too.

Kind of like those who believe pure capitalism doesn't lead to the same end? Didn't see much talk of socialism in the article when I read it but hey...

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:15 pm

kalm wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:53 pm

Kind of like those who believe pure capitalism doesn't lead to the same end? Didn't see much talk of socialism in the article when I read it but hey...

He didn't talk about socialism because his objective is to portray conservatives as imbeciles who fell for a hustler. He might not even be aware enough to realize that people who voted for Hillary were just as gullible in falling for a hustler. That imbeciles aren't limited to the right-wing, they're on both sides of the aisle falling for the hustles of disruptors and extremists.

Arguing that conservatives are imbeciles (or evil) is beyond arrogant

kalm wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:24 pm

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:15 pm
He didn't talk about socialism because his objective is to portray conservatives as imbeciles who fell for a hustler. He might not even be aware enough to realize that people who voted for Hillary were just as gullible in falling for a hustler. That imbeciles aren't limited to the right-wing, they're on both sides of the aisle falling for the hustles of disruptors and extremists.

Arguing that conservatives are imbeciles (or evil) is beyond arrogant

1) Did you read the article? His examples explicitly list examples of both sides acting like imbeciles (DC teachers unions, RFK junior)

2) The Dispatch is self described as conservative on their about page.