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Deregulation
Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:01 pm
by JohnStOnge
I'm sure this has been discussed elsewhere but I think it deserves its own threat. I think what happened to Texas with the historic 2021 winter storm is a poster child scenario for those warning against haphazard deregulation. Here is one article on it:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/21/us/t ... kouts.html
Here's a take by a Texas new organization:
https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/17 ... -failures/
Regulations are often in place to prevent low-probability, worst case scenarios from unfolding. Deregulation sounds great until the low probability, worst case scenario occurs. My bet is we are about to see a demand for a lot more regulation of the electricity providers in Texas.
Re: Deregulation
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:07 am
by GannonFan
Deregulation doesn't mean no regulation. There were and are plenty of regulations in Texas as they relate to the power grid, power generation, etc. However, the regulations weren't written well enough to guard against the scenario that happened. Basically, there was no incentive via the regulations for energy providers of any kind (green, not green, fossil fuel, nuclear, etc) to be able to provide electricity in an extreme cold scenario. It was cheaper for them simply not to provide electricity. That's how the regulations were written and that's what happened. There are always going to be regulations, whether people pursue deregulation or not. The important thing is to have the least amount of regulations with the maximum amount of coverage via those regulations. Having none or having a bunch of regulations doesn't do anyone any good if they're not written well.
Re: Deregulation
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:20 am
by kalm
GannonFan wrote: ↑Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:07 am
Deregulation doesn't mean no regulation. There were and are plenty of regulations in Texas as they relate to the power grid, power generation, etc. However, the regulations weren't written well enough to guard against the scenario that happened. Basically, there was no incentive via the regulations for energy providers of any kind (green, not green, fossil fuel, nuclear, etc) to be able to provide electricity in an extreme cold scenario. It was cheaper for them simply not to provide electricity. That's how the regulations were written and that's what happened. There are always going to be regulations, whether people pursue deregulation or not. The important thing is to have the least amount of regulations with the maximum amount of coverage via those regulations. Having none or having a bunch of regulations doesn't do anyone any good if they're not written well.
Agree but deregulation literally means the removal of regulation. No wait..."defund" the police means removing the police?
The takeaway for libertarian/limited government types in much of this should be "careful what you wish for". We're about to see a huge increase in the size of government and regulation. Because to some, deregulation has no unintended consequences...until it does. Same goes for over-regulation
Deregulation is a part of the "free" market Ayn Rand mythos is what I think JSO is driving at.
Re: Deregulation
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:39 am
by ∞∞∞
The irony is Ayn Rand hated libertarian movements 'cause those were collectivist things. She respected Marxists more than libertarians 'cause at least they weren't hypocrites (although she herself was one). Her even greater disgust with the actual Libertarian Party - an
organized collectivist movement - is well recorded too. She also hated the Democrats, Republicans, despised Carter and Reagan, couldn't stand religion...
...lady was a generally miserable person.
Re: Deregulation
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:57 pm
by AZGrizFan
∞∞∞ wrote: ↑Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:39 am
The irony is Ayn Rand hated libertarian movements 'cause those were collectivist things. She respected Marxists more than libertarians 'cause at least they weren't hypocrites (although she herself was one). Her even greater disgust with the actual Libertarian Party - an
organized collectivist movement - is well recorded too. She also hated the Democrats, Republicans, despised Carter and Reagan, couldn't stand religion...
...lady was a generally miserable person.
Most of those I agree with her on.
But please, explain how she (or you) believe a libertarian is more “collectivist” than a Marxist. I’d love to hear THAT logic....
Re: Deregulation
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:02 pm
by UNI88
AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:57 pm
∞∞∞ wrote: ↑Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:39 am
The irony is Ayn Rand hated libertarian movements 'cause those were collectivist things. She respected Marxists more than libertarians 'cause at least they weren't hypocrites (although she herself was one). Her even greater disgust with the actual Libertarian Party - an
organized collectivist movement - is well recorded too. She also hated the Democrats, Republicans, despised Carter and Reagan, couldn't stand religion...
...lady was a generally miserable person.
Most of those I agree with her on.
But please, explain how she (or you) believe a libertarian is more “collectivist” than a Marxist. I’d love to hear THAT logic....
Marxism by it's nature is a collectivist movement so Marxists aren't being hypocrites when they organize.
Re: Deregulation
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:11 pm
by ∞∞∞
AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:57 pm
∞∞∞ wrote: ↑Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:39 am
The irony is Ayn Rand hated libertarian movements 'cause those were collectivist things. She respected Marxists more than libertarians 'cause at least they weren't hypocrites (although she herself was one). Her even greater disgust with the actual Libertarian Party - an
organized collectivist movement - is well recorded too. She also hated the Democrats, Republicans, despised Carter and Reagan, couldn't stand religion...
...lady was a generally miserable person.
Most of those I agree with her on.
But please, explain how she (or you) believe a libertarian is more “collectivist” than a Marxist. I’d love to hear THAT logic....
I'll even cite it for you:
All kinds of people today call themselves “libertarians,” especially something calling itself the New Right, which consists of hippies who are anarchists instead of leftist collectivists; but anarchists are collectivists. Capitalism is the one system that requires absolute objective law, yet libertarians combine capitalism and anarchism. That’s worse than anything the New Left has proposed. It’s a mockery of philosophy and ideology. They sling slogans and try to ride on two bandwagons. They want to be hippies, but don’t want to preach collectivism because those jobs are already taken. But anarchism is a logical outgrowth of the anti-intellectual side of collectivism. I could deal with a Marxist with a greater chance of reaching some kind of understanding, and with much greater respect. Anarchists are the scum of the intellectual world of the Left, which has given them up. So the Right picks up another leftist discard. That’s the libertarian movement.
-Ayn Rand. Ford Hall Forum, 1971.
Re: Deregulation
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:14 pm
by AZGrizFan
∞∞∞ wrote: ↑Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:11 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:57 pm
Most of those I agree with her on.
But please, explain how she (or you) believe a libertarian is more “collectivist” than a Marxist. I’d love to hear THAT logic....
I'll even cite it for you:
All kinds of people today call themselves “libertarians,” especially something calling itself the New Right, which consists of hippies who are anarchists instead of leftist collectivists; but anarchists are collectivists. Capitalism is the one system that requires absolute objective law, yet libertarians combine capitalism and anarchism. That’s worse than anything the New Left has proposed. It’s a mockery of philosophy and ideology. They sling slogans and try to ride on two bandwagons. They want to be hippies, but don’t want to preach collectivism because those jobs are already taken. But anarchism is a logical outgrowth of the anti-intellectual side of collectivism. I could deal with a Marxist with a greater chance of reaching some kind of understanding, and with much greater respect. Anarchists are the scum of the intellectual world of the Left, which has given them up. So the Right picks up another leftist discard. That’s the libertarian movement.
-Ayn Rand. Ford Hall Forum, 1971.
I guess if you take libertarianism to it’s logical extreme of NO government, that makes them anarchists. Most “l”ibertarians, however, mere want LESS government, less intrusion, less regulation, etc., etc. Only the absolute fringe of the fringe wants “no” government.
Still don’t see hw that makes them collectivists. Nor do I see how it makes them hippies. I don’t want, need, or expect my government to “save me”. Does that make me a hippie?
Edit: and nice work on the citation. Maybe you ARE trainable.
Re: Deregulation
Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:36 pm
by JohnStOnge
GannonFan wrote: ↑Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:07 am
Deregulation doesn't mean no regulation.
No. It doesn't. But there is a segment of society that automatically sees "deregulation" as good.
Look at the information at
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... -list.html .
There are a lot of things there such that your opinion might depend on how concerned you are about Climate change. But there are also a number of things that are in the "What could POSSIBLY go wrong with this" category. One example is:
Doubled the time allowed for utilities to remove lead pipes from water systems with high levels of lead.
But there are others. There are a number of things such that it's quite possible that history will say, "That was a bad move."
Re: Deregulation
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:48 am
by GannonFan
JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:36 pm
GannonFan wrote: ↑Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:07 am
Deregulation doesn't mean no regulation.
No. It doesn't. But there is a segment of society that automatically sees "deregulation" as good.
And?? There's a segment of society that automatically sees "regulation" as good, and they're just as delusional as those who feel the other way. The answer is and has always been the least of amount of regulation necessary to accomplish the purpose. Regulations are needed, but need to be written well and be written to cover what they're being written for. It's not like the Texas electrical grid was unregulated - there were plenty of regulations governing it. They just weren't particularly well-written and that became obvious with the winter storm they had.
Re: Deregulation
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:00 pm
by JohnStOnge
GannonFan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:48 am
JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:36 pm
No. It doesn't. But there is a segment of society that automatically sees "deregulation" as good.
And?? There's a segment of society that automatically sees "regulation" as good, and they're just as delusional as those who feel the other way. The answer is and has always been the least of amount of regulation necessary to accomplish the purpose. Regulations are needed, but need to be written well and be written to cover what they're being written for. It's not like the Texas electrical grid was unregulated - there were plenty of regulations governing it. They just weren't particularly well-written and that became obvious with the winter storm they had.
It's not just that they weren't well written. They reflected a certain philosophy.
Re: Deregulation
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:29 pm
by AZGrizFan
JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:00 pm
GannonFan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:48 am
And?? There's a segment of society that automatically sees "regulation" as good, and they're just as delusional as those who feel the other way. The answer is and has always been the least of amount of regulation necessary to accomplish the purpose. Regulations are needed, but need to be written well and be written to cover what they're being written for. It's not like the Texas electrical grid was unregulated - there were plenty of regulations governing it. They just weren't particularly well-written and that became obvious with the winter storm they had.
It's not just that they weren't well written. They reflected a certain philosophy.
Show me a regulation written in our lifetimes that doesn’t “reflect a certain philosophy”.
Re: Deregulation
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:39 am
by kalm
GannonFan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:48 am
JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:36 pm
No. It doesn't. But there is a segment of society that automatically sees "deregulation" as good.
And?? There's a segment of society that automatically sees "regulation" as good, and they're just as delusional as those who feel the other way. The answer is and has always been the least of amount of regulation necessary to accomplish the purpose. Regulations are needed, but need to be written well and be written to cover what they're being written for. It's not like the Texas electrical grid was unregulated - there were plenty of regulations governing it. They just weren't particularly well-written and that became obvious with the winter storm they had.
Which segment of society sees every regulation as good?
I like regulations for everyone...except me of course. I’m Ayn Rand’s objectivist man as heroic being - superhero.
Collectivism is for the suckers...oops I mean workers I employ who think they’re free.
Re: Deregulation
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:14 am
by UNI88
AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:29 pm
JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:00 pm
It's not just that they weren't well written. They reflected a certain philosophy.
Show me a regulation written in our lifetimes that doesn’t “reflect a certain philosophy”.
It could be interesting for John to tell us why that "certain philosophy" is bad while maintaining that he is both a conservative and a libertarian. The logical gymnastics would put Nadia Comaneci to shame.
Re: Deregulation
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:21 am
by AZGrizFan
UNI88 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:14 am
AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:29 pm
Show me a regulation written in our lifetimes that doesn’t “reflect a certain philosophy”.
It could be interesting for John to tell us why that "certain philosophy" is bad while maintaining that he is both a conservative and a libertarian. The logical gymnastics would put Nadia Comaneci to shame.
Well, I would think that’s why it’s taking him some “extra” time to come up with this answer....