The rugged individualism vs. community thread

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The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by kalm »

Scott Galloway was on Maher last week. He impressed the fuck out of me with his take on corporatism and monopoly. Decided to look him up and found this piece.

Yes you need a combination of both but the mythos of American individualism has dominated our culture to the point where serious damage has been wreaked on everything from the nobility of public institutions to healthcare. It’s much of why we fucked up covid response (see politico’s recent piece on the Trump administration manipulating the CDC).

We need that pendulum to swing back towards community for the sake of balance.
The same is true for many of our myths of individualism. Persistence and the plough “settled” the frontier, not a handsome white guy with a six-shooter and a pack of smokes. Cowboys were poor men who did dreary work for low wages; Hollywood and Madison Avenue morphed them into gunslinging heroes. Likewise, the wonders of Silicon Valley were built on a foundation of government-funded projects — the computer chip, the internet, the mouse, the web browser, and the GPS.

Yes, the private sector deftly turned publicly-funded technologies into commercial successes, and there was a place for individual genius in that. But those successes were also built on long hours by tens of thousands of engineers (many of them immigrants, many of whom went to public schools). The Ayn Rand image of the solo entrepreneur — Hank Reardon toiling alone in his laboratory to invent a new kind of steel — is a pernicious deception.

Myths have their place, and America’s worship of individual innovators inspires real achievement. The opportunity for success attracts the ambitious and those willing to work hard, like my parents, along with millions of others who land on American shores. But the myth becomes a liability when society becomes so enamoured with the idea of individual success that it forgets, and even attacks, the very institutions that enable it.

The efficiency of public-sector programmes can be seen all the time. An American family with an annual income of $52,000 per year pays approximately $16,000 a year in federal, state, and local taxes. In exchange, that family gets roads, public schools, environmental protection, national security, fire, and police. Try assembling that as a package of private services and see what it costs.......

Antipathy to government institutions is often called “conservatism,” but it bears no resemblance to any principled tradition by that name. Conservatism is rooted in a respect for institutions. Its intellectual founding father, Edmund Burke, wrote, “Nothing turns out to be so oppressive and unjust as a feeble government.” The observation comes from his most famous work, a criticism of the anti-institutional, pro-individualism of the French Revolution and the bloody terror that followed. There is plenty to criticise about the American administrative state, but idolatry of the individual is hardly a true “conservative” critique.

Nor can the current, degraded notion of freedom be found in the works of America’s founders. The premise of the Declaration of Independence is not simply that our rights are “self-evident” but that “to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men.” This is to say, the founders respected “government” — they saw the state as a vehicle to guarantee freedom. In the years after the American Revolution, those who fought for liberty spent the rest of their lives progressively strengthening the central government they had formed in order to secure that freedom. Their legacy is the stability and prosperity we have come to take for granted. The exaggerated emphasis on individualism imperils their achievements..........

America’s response (to Covid) was inept because the institutions designed to protect the public failed or were enfeebled. At almost every level of society, people chose individual convenience over collective well-being......
https://www.profgalloway.com/institutions
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

Math is hard. That guy is living proof.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by Ursus A. Horribilis »

kalm wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:43 am Scott Galloway was on Maher last week. He impressed the fuck out of me with his take on corporatism and monopoly. Decided to look him up and found this piece.

Yes you need a combination of both but the mythos of American individualism has dominated our culture to the point where serious damage has been wreaked on everything from the nobility of public institutions to healthcare. It’s much of why we fucked up covid response (see politico’s recent piece on the Trump administration manipulating the CDC).

We need that pendulum to swing back towards community for the sake of balance.
The same is true for many of our myths of individualism. Persistence and the plough “settled” the frontier, not a handsome white guy with a six-shooter and a pack of smokes. Cowboys were poor men who did dreary work for low wages; Hollywood and Madison Avenue morphed them into gunslinging heroes. Likewise, the wonders of Silicon Valley were built on a foundation of government-funded projects — the computer chip, the internet, the mouse, the web browser, and the GPS.

Yes, the private sector deftly turned publicly-funded technologies into commercial successes, and there was a place for individual genius in that. But those successes were also built on long hours by tens of thousands of engineers (many of them immigrants, many of whom went to public schools). The Ayn Rand image of the solo entrepreneur — Hank Reardon toiling alone in his laboratory to invent a new kind of steel — is a pernicious deception.

Myths have their place, and America’s worship of individual innovators inspires real achievement. The opportunity for success attracts the ambitious and those willing to work hard, like my parents, along with millions of others who land on American shores. But the myth becomes a liability when society becomes so enamoured with the idea of individual success that it forgets, and even attacks, the very institutions that enable it.

The efficiency of public-sector programmes can be seen all the time. An American family with an annual income of $52,000 per year pays approximately $16,000 a year in federal, state, and local taxes. In exchange, that family gets roads, public schools, environmental protection, national security, fire, and police. Try assembling that as a package of private services and see what it costs.......

Antipathy to government institutions is often called “conservatism,” but it bears no resemblance to any principled tradition by that name. Conservatism is rooted in a respect for institutions. Its intellectual founding father, Edmund Burke, wrote, “Nothing turns out to be so oppressive and unjust as a feeble government.” The observation comes from his most famous work, a criticism of the anti-institutional, pro-individualism of the French Revolution and the bloody terror that followed. There is plenty to criticise about the American administrative state, but idolatry of the individual is hardly a true “conservative” critique.

Nor can the current, degraded notion of freedom be found in the works of America’s founders. The premise of the Declaration of Independence is not simply that our rights are “self-evident” but that “to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men.” This is to say, the founders respected “government” — they saw the state as a vehicle to guarantee freedom. In the years after the American Revolution, those who fought for liberty spent the rest of their lives progressively strengthening the central government they had formed in order to secure that freedom. Their legacy is the stability and prosperity we have come to take for granted. The exaggerated emphasis on individualism imperils their achievements..........

America’s response (to Covid) was inept because the institutions designed to protect the public failed or were enfeebled. At almost every level of society, people chose individual convenience over collective well-being......
https://www.profgalloway.com/institutions
I told you about Scotty G many months ago I think in a podcast recommendation. He's an animal sometimes and is a great listen. He has a good show on Vice and the Prof G podcast and Pivot from NYT (I think) are good listens as well usually.

Everything he did on Maher was very familiar stuff if you listen to those sources.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

This is such flawed logic as to be almost comical. THIS is his “proof of public sector efficiency”? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
The efficiency of public-sector programmes can be seen all the time. An American family with an annual income of $52,000 per year pays approximately $16,000 a year in federal, state, and local taxes. In exchange, that family gets roads, public schools, environmental protection, national security, fire, and police. Try assembling that as a package of private services and see what it costs.......
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:37 pm This is such flawed logic as to be almost comical. THIS is his “proof of public sector efficiency”? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
The efficiency of public-sector programmes can be seen all the time. An American family with an annual income of $52,000 per year pays approximately $16,000 a year in federal, state, and local taxes. In exchange, that family gets roads, public schools, environmental protection, national security, fire, and police. Try assembling that as a package of private services and see what it costs.......
Price out that package and get back to us.

Also the USPS.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by kalm »

Ursus A. Horribilis wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:23 pm
kalm wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:43 am Scott Galloway was on Maher last week. He impressed the fuck out of me with his take on corporatism and monopoly. Decided to look him up and found this piece.

Yes you need a combination of both but the mythos of American individualism has dominated our culture to the point where serious damage has been wreaked on everything from the nobility of public institutions to healthcare. It’s much of why we fucked up covid response (see politico’s recent piece on the Trump administration manipulating the CDC).

We need that pendulum to swing back towards community for the sake of balance.



https://www.profgalloway.com/institutions
I told you about Scotty G many months ago I think in a podcast recommendation. He's an animal sometimes and is a great listen. He has a good show on Vice and the Prof G podcast and Pivot from NYT (I think) are good listens as well usually.

Everything he did on Maher was very familiar stuff if you listen to those sources.
I need to be a better listener. I’ll check out the listens. Thanks, Homey.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:49 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:37 pm This is such flawed logic as to be almost comical. THIS is his “proof of public sector efficiency”? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Price out that package and get back to us.

Also the USPS.
I don't have a problem with the big, bad government providing essential services such as police, fire, infrastructure, etc. I don't however need them to manage every aspect of my life - let me choose when and how to wipe my ass.

It's not an all or nothing question and just as many conservatives probably want too little government, many liberals want too much government.

And as I've pointed out before, the community that has long been a part of American culture and identity was largely voluntary, not coerced by the government.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:49 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:37 pm This is such flawed logic as to be almost comical. THIS is his “proof of public sector efficiency”? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Price out that package and get back to us.

Also the USPS.
I don’t need to price out “that package”. The only reason a family of $52,000 gets “all that” for just $16,000 is because a family of $1,000,000 gets the EXACT SAME SHIT but it costs THEM $400,000. Are the roads 20x better for that family? Are the police and fire dept’s 20x more responsive? Yeah, didn’t think so. So there goes his efficiency argument.

In fact, his entire argument smacks of Obama’s “you didn’t build that”, which is utter horseshit.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:51 pm
kalm wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:49 pm

Price out that package and get back to us.

Also the USPS.
I don’t need to price out “that package”. The only reason a family of $52,000 gets “all that” for just $16,000 is because a family of $1,000,000 gets the EXACT SAME SHIT but it costs THEM $400,000. Are the roads 20x better for that family? Are the police and fire dept’s 20x more responsive? Yeah, didn’t think so. So there goes his efficiency argument.

In fact, his entire argument smacks of Obama’s “you didn’t build that”, which is utter horseshit.
So......?

It’s either ‘be happy you blood peasants or pure socialism?’

The point you need help with is that government inefficiencies are super easy to piss and moan about, yet efficiency within the context of bang for the buck should be dismissed.

Not to mention income inequality.

Or navigating our awesome for-profit health insurance system.

:coffee:
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by SDHornet »

UNI88 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:06 pm
kalm wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:49 pm

Price out that package and get back to us.

Also the USPS.
I don't have a problem with the big, bad government providing essential services such as police, fire, infrastructure, etc. I don't however need them to manage every aspect of my life - let me choose when and how to wipe my ass.

It's not an all or nothing question and just as many conservatives probably want too little government, many liberals want too much government.

And as I've pointed out before, the community that has long been a part of American culture and identity was largely voluntary, not coerced by the government.
This.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:22 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:51 pm

I don’t need to price out “that package”. The only reason a family of $52,000 gets “all that” for just $16,000 is because a family of $1,000,000 gets the EXACT SAME SHIT but it costs THEM $400,000. Are the roads 20x better for that family? Are the police and fire dept’s 20x more responsive? Yeah, didn’t think so. So there goes his efficiency argument.

In fact, his entire argument smacks of Obama’s “you didn’t build that”, which is utter horseshit.
So......?

It’s either ‘be happy you blood peasants or pure socialism?’

The point you need help with is that government inefficiencies are super easy to piss and moan about, yet efficiency within the context of bang for the buck should be dismissed.

Not to mention income inequality.

Or navigating our awesome for-profit health insurance system.

:coffee:
His entire point of government efficiency is laughable and makes the rest of his argument moot. My simple example proves that. There is no bang for the buck. Without high income people and the taxes THEY pay, the low income people wouldn’t enjoy nice roads, emergency services or a well-equipped defense. Those things are not paid for by people making 52,000 a year. So go ahead and piss and moan about people making more money than they “deserve”....I can assure you I, for one, don’t get more use out of the services provided by the government for the exorbitant taxes that I pay.

And quit throwing out red herrings, FFS.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:22 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:51 pm

I don’t need to price out “that package”. The only reason a family of $52,000 gets “all that” for just $16,000 is because a family of $1,000,000 gets the EXACT SAME SHIT but it costs THEM $400,000. Are the roads 20x better for that family? Are the police and fire dept’s 20x more responsive? Yeah, didn’t think so. So there goes his efficiency argument.

In fact, his entire argument smacks of Obama’s “you didn’t build that”, which is utter horseshit.
So......?

It’s either ‘be happy you blood peasants or pure socialism?’

The point you need help with is that government inefficiencies are super easy to piss and moan about, yet efficiency within the context of bang for the buck should be dismissed.

Not to mention income inequality.

Or navigating our awesome for-profit health insurance system.

:coffee:
I dunno, AZ makes a good point about the playing with numbers here - the vast majority of taxes comes from a very small group of people, the highest parts of the tax brackets. So to say that we're getting all those things we're getting just for everyone paying $16k is just wrong. If you're going to argue that we're getting the deal of the century with only paying a small amount of money and getting a lot of stuff for it, and even claim that it's efficient as well, you're going to have to prove it beyond just saying it's efficient.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:22 pm
kalm wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:22 pm

So......?

It’s either ‘be happy you blood peasants or pure socialism?’

The point you need help with is that government inefficiencies are super easy to piss and moan about, yet efficiency within the context of bang for the buck should be dismissed.

Not to mention income inequality.

Or navigating our awesome for-profit health insurance system.

:coffee:
His entire point of government efficiency is laughable and makes the rest of his argument moot. My simple example proves that. There is no bang for the buck. Without high income people and the taxes THEY pay, the low income people wouldn’t enjoy nice roads, emergency services or a well-equipped defense. Those things are not paid for by people making 52,000 a year. So go ahead and piss and moan about people making more money than they “deserve”....I can assure you I, for one, don’t get more use out of the services provided by the government for the exorbitant taxes that I pay.

And quit throwing out red herrings, FFS.
Ummm...that’s now how it works. You threw out the red herring, Captain Oblivious. :lol: Bet you stopped reading once you found the first counterpoint to the confirmation bias you were searching for. Didn’t you? :nod: :nod:

I’ll try and help you some more. If taken within context, it’s one small example illustrating how the lower working class (a large voting group) benefits more from government than is popularly believed by certain groups. People like you and I may not directly receive value for tax payer funded services, but we too benefit from things like the legal system, infrastructure, and enough crumbs sprinkled down to the field workers to provide stability throughout the system. Not to mention the investment gains we realize from their productivity.

I’d suggest reading the entire article for better understanding. And/or watch the Maher segment (he’s astoundingly good at speaking on the topic).

You seem simultaneously bitter at those above you AND resentful at the humble masses who benefit from a kick ass system below you. I’m neither. I simply feel fortunate and understand that the common good benefits me beyond simply my individual ROI for taxes.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by Ibanez »

How could anyone living in progressive or regressive tax environment make that argument.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:34 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:22 pm

His entire point of government efficiency is laughable and makes the rest of his argument moot. My simple example proves that. There is no bang for the buck. Without high income people and the taxes THEY pay, the low income people wouldn’t enjoy nice roads, emergency services or a well-equipped defense. Those things are not paid for by people making 52,000 a year. So go ahead and piss and moan about people making more money than they “deserve”....I can assure you I, for one, don’t get more use out of the services provided by the government for the exorbitant taxes that I pay.

And quit throwing out red herrings, FFS.
Ummm...that’s now how it works. You threw out the red herring, Captain Oblivious. :lol: Bet you stopped reading once you found the first counterpoint to the confirmation bias you were searching for. Didn’t you? :nod: :nod:

I’ll try and help you some more. If taken within context, it’s one small example illustrating how the lower working class (a large voting group) benefits more from government than is popularly believed by certain groups. People like you and I may not directly receive value for tax payer funded services, but we too benefit from things like the legal system, infrastructure, and enough crumbs sprinkled down to the field workers to provide stability throughout the system. Not to mention the investment gains we realize from their productivity.

I’d suggest reading the entire article for better understanding. And/or watch the Maher segment (he’s astoundingly good at speaking on the topic).

You seem simultaneously bitter at those above you AND resentful at the humble masses who benefit from a kick ass system below you. I’m neither. I simply feel fortunate and understand that the common good benefits me beyond simply my individual ROI for taxes.
Why do you read my comments as bitter? My "red herring" (as you called it, even though it's not one), was merely a point to disprove his ridiculous assertion of government efficiency. It sure as FUCK isn't efficient for me. If people like "you and I" don't directly receive value for services that WE pay for, how is THAT determined to be "our fair share"? Why must I pay 20x more to use the same roads and get the same emergency service response as the "lower working class" (and by the way, NO family making $52,000 pays $16,000 in taxes, so the multiplier is certainly much higher than 20x)? Is that bitterness? Or are those fair questions? Is it bitterness simply to ASK & question?

oh, and I read the post you quoted. Nothing beyond that. Because if that moron is using THAT logic to make a government efficiency claim, I don't need to continue reading his drivel to know he's a moron. :coffee: :coffee:

P.S.: I have every right to be pissed about how my tax dollars are used. As do you--and you should be--the stimulus packages being Exhibit A. The fact YOU aren't pissed says a lot more about you than me... :nod: :nod: :nod:
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by Ursus A. Horribilis »

AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:22 pm
kalm wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:22 pm

So......?

It’s either ‘be happy you blood peasants or pure socialism?’

The point you need help with is that government inefficiencies are super easy to piss and moan about, yet efficiency within the context of bang for the buck should be dismissed.

Not to mention income inequality.

Or navigating our awesome for-profit health insurance system.

:coffee:
His entire point of government efficiency is laughable and makes the rest of his argument moot. My simple example proves that. There is no bang for the buck. Without high income people and the taxes THEY pay, the low income people wouldn’t enjoy nice roads, emergency services or a well-equipped defense. Those things are not paid for by people making 52,000 a year. So go ahead and piss and moan about people making more money than they “deserve”....I can assure you I, for one, don’t get more use out of the services provided by the government for the exorbitant taxes that I pay.

And quit throwing out red herrings, FFS.
I agree with what you say as far as it goes. I don't bitch about wealthier people making more. But as they make more they should pony up more. That is the thing they always bitch about which is akin to what you just said the other side should not bitch about.

At any given time there is a certain amount of total income. There is also a certain amount needing to be paid in. You have more of that pie?, You work for more, or are just luckier? Then you pay more. If you make way more money then it is very likely that in order for you to accumulate that money you and your agents very likely used much more than the family of $52,0000 did. But even if that were not the case you have the bigger slice of the pie, so you pay the higher price for that larger slice...just like it would be if we were splitting up an actual pie.

BTW, I think you are a pretty sharp feller. But I think Galloway would probably leave your head spinning with a certain command of markets and monetary theory, and several other things that would make that a very interesting debate to hear.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

Ursus A. Horribilis wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:35 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:22 pm

His entire point of government efficiency is laughable and makes the rest of his argument moot. My simple example proves that. There is no bang for the buck. Without high income people and the taxes THEY pay, the low income people wouldn’t enjoy nice roads, emergency services or a well-equipped defense. Those things are not paid for by people making 52,000 a year. So go ahead and piss and moan about people making more money than they “deserve”....I can assure you I, for one, don’t get more use out of the services provided by the government for the exorbitant taxes that I pay.

And quit throwing out red herrings, FFS.
I agree with what you say as far as it goes. I don't bitch about wealthier people making more. But as they make more they should pony up more. That is the thing they always bitch about which is akin to what you just said the other side should not bitch about.

At any given time there is a certain amount of total income. There is also a certain amount needing to be paid in. You have more of that pie?, You work for more, or are just luckier? Then you pay more. If you make way more money then it is very likely that in order for you to accumulate that money you and your agents very likely used much more than the family of $52,0000 did. But even if that were not the case you have the bigger slice of the pie, so you pay the higher price for that larger slice...just like it would be if we were splitting up an actual pie.

BTW, I think you are a pretty sharp feller. But I think Galloway would probably leave your head spinning with a certain command of markets and monetary theory, and several other things that would make that a very interesting debate to hear.
well his command of government efficiency leaves one wondering.... :lol: :lol:

I can assure you I didn't use 20x what a family of $52,000 did....And I've always maintained I wouldn't bitch about the amount of taxes I'm forced to pay if I felt, even remotely, that the government was spending it wisely. Sadly, for most of my lifetime that hasn't been the case.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by Ursus A. Horribilis »

AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:30 am
Ursus A. Horribilis wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:35 am

I agree with what you say as far as it goes. I don't bitch about wealthier people making more. But as they make more they should pony up more. That is the thing they always bitch about which is akin to what you just said the other side should not bitch about.

At any given time there is a certain amount of total income. There is also a certain amount needing to be paid in. You have more of that pie?, You work for more, or are just luckier? Then you pay more. If you make way more money then it is very likely that in order for you to accumulate that money you and your agents very likely used much more than the family of $52,0000 did. But even if that were not the case you have the bigger slice of the pie, so you pay the higher price for that larger slice...just like it would be if we were splitting up an actual pie.

BTW, I think you are a pretty sharp feller. But I think Galloway would probably leave your head spinning with a certain command of markets and monetary theory, and several other things that would make that a very interesting debate to hear.
well his command of government efficiency leaves one wondering.... :lol: :lol:

I can assure you I didn't use 20x what a family of $52,000 did....And I've always maintained I wouldn't bitch about the amount of taxes I'm forced to pay if I felt, even remotely, that the government was spending it wisely. Sadly, for most of my lifetime that hasn't been the case.
Well that is one thing and I disagree with you on his command as it does make sense to me as far as the concept and overall philosophy he is putting forward. You are going a bit more micro than I think it is intended but I guess things are perceived differently.

BTW, the amount you pay in taxes in substantial to you and you may think that this gives you some big reason to bitch more but it really doesn't in my view. With an abundance of discretionary income your input probably hurts you far less than those in lower income groups. The amount of YOUR money wasted overall is extremely small in the grand scheme. You are bitching about your money, and everyone else's money on top of it as if you are on the hook for it. For instance Galloway probably pays in quadruple what you do but you get the benefit of pretending that the length of his financial dick is added to yours since you both pay in a fair amount. If you got a bigger piece of the pie, your tab reflects that.

In spite of all the bullshit I've heard over the years and even taken part in about how bad government is and how badly they do things I've come to realize that is pretty much all bullshit and there is waste and ridiculous shit but overall what we have and what our government helps us provide for our communities is a pretty incredible feat. Not perfect, needs improvement, but at any time we can go out and move, and pretty much do whatever the fuck we want to do because we've all chipped in to varying degrees to have a nice place to spend our far too short fucking lives.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

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Ursus A. Horribilis wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:47 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:30 am

well his command of government efficiency leaves one wondering.... :lol: :lol:

I can assure you I didn't use 20x what a family of $52,000 did....And I've always maintained I wouldn't bitch about the amount of taxes I'm forced to pay if I felt, even remotely, that the government was spending it wisely. Sadly, for most of my lifetime that hasn't been the case.
Well that is one thing and I disagree with you on his command as it does make sense to me as far as the concept and overall philosophy he is putting forward. You are going a bit more micro than I think it is intended but I guess things are perceived differently.

BTW, the amount you pay in taxes in substantial to you and you may think that this gives you some big reason to bitch more but it really doesn't in my view. With an abundance of discretionary income your input probably hurts you far less than those in lower income groups. The amount of YOUR money wasted overall is extremely small in the grand scheme. You are bitching about your money, and everyone else's money on top of it as if you are on the hook for it. For instance Galloway probably pays in quadruple what you do but you get the benefit of pretending that the length of his financial dick is added to yours since you both pay in a fair amount. If you got a bigger piece of the pie, your tab reflects that.

In spite of all the bullshit I've heard over the years and even taken part in about how bad government is and how badly they do things I've come to realize that is pretty much all bullshit and there is waste and ridiculous shit but overall what we have and what our government helps us provide for our communities is a pretty incredible feat. Not perfect, needs improvement, but at any time we can go out and move, and pretty much do whatever the fuck we want to do because we've all chipped in to varying degrees to have a nice place to spend our far too short fucking lives.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't expect better. If that comes off as "bitching", so be it, I guess. :coffee:

They'd love nothing more than for people to just shrug, throw in the towel and say "welp, there's nothing we can do about it anyways, so might as well just enjoy the assraping".
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by Ursus A. Horribilis »

AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:50 pm
Ursus A. Horribilis wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:47 pm
Well that is one thing and I disagree with you on his command as it does make sense to me as far as the concept and overall philosophy he is putting forward. You are going a bit more micro than I think it is intended but I guess things are perceived differently.

BTW, the amount you pay in taxes in substantial to you and you may think that this gives you some big reason to bitch more but it really doesn't in my view. With an abundance of discretionary income your input probably hurts you far less than those in lower income groups. The amount of YOUR money wasted overall is extremely small in the grand scheme. You are bitching about your money, and everyone else's money on top of it as if you are on the hook for it. For instance Galloway probably pays in quadruple what you do but you get the benefit of pretending that the length of his financial dick is added to yours since you both pay in a fair amount. If you got a bigger piece of the pie, your tab reflects that.

In spite of all the bullshit I've heard over the years and even taken part in about how bad government is and how badly they do things I've come to realize that is pretty much all bullshit and there is waste and ridiculous shit but overall what we have and what our government helps us provide for our communities is a pretty incredible feat. Not perfect, needs improvement, but at any time we can go out and move, and pretty much do whatever the fuck we want to do because we've all chipped in to varying degrees to have a nice place to spend our far too short fucking lives.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't expect better. If that comes off as "bitching", so be it, I guess. :coffee:

They'd love nothing more than for people to just shrug, throw in the towel and say "welp, there's nothing we can do about it anyways, so might as well just enjoy the assraping".
That could be, we both know that we all will never stop bitching and I did mention that it can always use improving. Main point was the ol' "government is bad" thing is a bit old and tired for me at this point. We should expect better. Doesn't mean we can't look around and appreciate a few things though. :thumb:

That was sort of Galloway's point that started all of this...I think. :mrgreen:
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

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Ursus A. Horribilis wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:12 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:50 pm

Doesn't mean we shouldn't expect better. If that comes off as "bitching", so be it, I guess. :coffee:

They'd love nothing more than for people to just shrug, throw in the towel and say "welp, there's nothing we can do about it anyways, so might as well just enjoy the assraping".
That could be, we both know that we all will never stop bitching and I did mention that it can always use improving. Main point was the ol' "government is bad" thing is a bit old and tired for me at this point. We should expect better. Doesn't mean we can't look around and appreciate a few things though. :thumb:

That was sort of Galloway's point that started all of this...I think. :mrgreen:
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

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Ursus A. Horribilis wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:47 pm In spite of all the bullshit I've heard over the years and even taken part in about how bad government is and how badly they do things I've come to realize that is pretty much all bullshit and there is waste and ridiculous shit but overall what we have and what our government helps us provide for our communities is a pretty incredible feat. Not perfect, needs improvement, but at any time we can go out and move, and pretty much do whatever the fuck we want to do because we've all chipped in to varying degrees to have a nice place to spend our far too short fucking lives.
I agree that overall what we have and what our governments provide for our communities is a pretty incredible feat. Governments is plural because local, state and federal government are separate and IMO the most incredible services we get are from out state and local governments. The parts of the country that have the most problems seem to be those with less effective or more overwhelmed local governments. I would also add the caveat that the bigger the federal government gets and the more it tries to do the less efficient, effective and incredible it becomes.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by Ursus A. Horribilis »

UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:19 pm
Ursus A. Horribilis wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:47 pm In spite of all the bullshit I've heard over the years and even taken part in about how bad government is and how badly they do things I've come to realize that is pretty much all bullshit and there is waste and ridiculous shit but overall what we have and what our government helps us provide for our communities is a pretty incredible feat. Not perfect, needs improvement, but at any time we can go out and move, and pretty much do whatever the fuck we want to do because we've all chipped in to varying degrees to have a nice place to spend our far too short fucking lives.
I agree that overall what we have and what our governments provide for our communities is a pretty incredible feat. Governments is plural because local, state and federal government are separate and IMO the most incredible services we get are from out state and local governments. The parts of the country that have the most problems seem to be those with less effective or more overwhelmed local governments. I would also add the caveat that the bigger the federal government gets and the more it tries to do the less efficient, effective and incredible it becomes.
Well our federal government was smaller the last few years and I'd probably not agree with that one part due to the incompetence we saw during that part of it all but outside of that I'd say I'm in your camp on all but the last sentence...and even there if it were filled with competence I could probably agree there too as long as it is the right size for what needs doing. What that should be is where we all probably part company. :mrgreen:

I just don't think gutting it down to drown it in the bathtub is the correct approach.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

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Ursus A. Horribilis wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:39 pm
UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:19 pm
I agree that overall what we have and what our governments provide for our communities is a pretty incredible feat. Governments is plural because local, state and federal government are separate and IMO the most incredible services we get are from out state and local governments. The parts of the country that have the most problems seem to be those with less effective or more overwhelmed local governments. I would also add the caveat that the bigger the federal government gets and the more it tries to do the less efficient, effective and incredible it becomes.
Well our federal government was smaller the last few years and I'd probably not agree with that one part due to the incompetence we saw during that part of it all but outside of that I'd say I'm in your camp on all but the last sentence...and even there if it were filled with competence I could probably agree there too as long as it is the right size for what needs doing. What that should be is where we all probably part company. :mrgreen:

I just don't think gutting it down to drown it in the bathtub is the correct approach.
Neither do I. It's a matter of determining the right amount of government. I appreciate and support taxes to fund infrastructure, police, fire, and education. I don't have a problem with providing a short-term safety net. Job (re)training and child care for the unemployed is a good thing but should sunset after a period of time. I don't want the government to take care of the able-bodied for an extended period of time or paying to rebuild homes in areas hit by hurricanes or floods.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

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UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:01 pm
Ursus A. Horribilis wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:39 pm

Well our federal government was smaller the last few years and I'd probably not agree with that one part due to the incompetence we saw during that part of it all but outside of that I'd say I'm in your camp on all but the last sentence...and even there if it were filled with competence I could probably agree there too as long as it is the right size for what needs doing. What that should be is where we all probably part company. :mrgreen:

I just don't think gutting it down to drown it in the bathtub is the correct approach.
Neither do I. It's a matter of determining the right amount of government. I appreciate and support taxes to fund infrastructure, police, fire, and education. I don't have a problem with providing a short-term safety net. Job (re)training and child care for the unemployed is a good thing but should sunset after a period of time. I don't want the government to take care of the able-bodied for an extended period of time or paying to rebuild homes in areas hit by hurricanes or floods.
Tough to disagree and I think very few would. The arguments are over the methods and extent of support needed.

This last year has shown how psychologically and physically dependent we sometimes can be on each other. Most of us are probably high on the spectrum of not needing as much assistance. It then becomes too easy during times of milk and honey to yell “bootstraps” while ignoring the ever present underlying human frailties that explode during crisis periods.

Everyone wants rugged individualism. Reality says many if not most are.

Btw, trade in “individualism” for “independence” and it makes more sense.
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