Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

[AZGrizFan]

Y’all would have been British sympathizers. “There’s no justification for any of it!”

Yeah...I know when I think of courage in the face of despotism, I think Ted Cruz or realtor Karen from Plano flying to a modern day Bunker Hill in her private jet.

Nice deflection. Surrender noted.

[kalm]

I stand by the OP. Jan 6th was a concern of the founders. Painting it as a fight for freedom is ironic. That’s what you’re arguing with.

The equivalency with BLM was your insertion.

If you truly want I take a dispassionate approach, MAGA “feelings” shouldn’t count. They will only be truly welcomed back into the fold if they become honest and self reflective. They reject what’s happening out of a sense of entitlement. The world is changing at a rapid pace before their very eyes and that’s a bitter pill.

Ditch the racism, nationalism, and religiosity and they might even find fellow travelers on the left.

I don't think January 6 was fight for freedom but many of the people who were involved did and do.

[That was pretty much my point.]

I brought up the comparison to BLM but you brought your opinion that MAGAts have "significantly less of a claim" "to economic and political disenfranchisement." The BLM/AnTiFa protests and subsequent riots weren't about economic and political disenfranchisement they were about police brutality and racial violence toward African-Americans.

[you were the one conflating economics with politics in what I assume was a an effort to find the middle. I will add there’s a politics of race relations. I even think it’s fair to connect some dots when it comes to disenfranchisement writ large. That was my nod to finding common ground]

If the feelings of MAGAts shouldn't count then why should the feelings of African-Americans? They should just accept their lot in life.

[Racial violence issues are different than MAGA claims in my book]

I agree that the MAGAts should be honest and self reflective but so should the BLM/AnTiFa rioters and their enablers. You keep trying to pin all of this on the MAGAts and make it their responsibility to change while glossing over what happened last year and letting those who participated in it or enabled it off the hook.

[Not at all. There’s just plenty of criticism of the left on here. No need for me to pile on. What I pin on MAGA is MAGA’s. Those who participated in violent acts and destruction of property and their enablers should be held accountable. Now...let’s compare the level of support for destructive acts associated with BLM and support granted by MAGA. I’m thinking in regards to political leadership, retired and active duty military and LE, and non-economics driven Trump supporters.]

Both sides need to be honest and self reflective if we're going to move forward. A true liberal would see that.

[I am and agree. Sorry to disappoint. ]

[Ibanez]

Condescending prick says why?

That's my understanding based off watching it unfold live on TV. Why don't you explain it to us that have a different opinion.

You’re thinking much too simplistically. It didn’t “unfold” on live TV. That was merely the end result (rightly or wrongly). The roots were sown four years earlier and over the past four years (and not by Trump). Think critically, Mark. It’ll come to you.

The storming of the capital didn't unfold on tv? Then what was I watching!? I think you're trying to get to the root cause (which I get)

I'll take a stab at explaining (something you won't do, btw). You're suggesting that the Jan 6th event was the end result of 4 years of a Republican President being vilified, investigated, stalled, hated, etc... by the Democratic Party. The election occurs, there are shenanigans, there are claims of widespread fraud and you have a leader constantly saying (w/o proving it) the election was stolen, there's fraud, and that we must fight to save our country. You have a leader, incorrectly, saying the VP can not accept the results. And because of all of that, we have a rally which turns into a violent mob which ended with property damage, bodily damage and deaths.

The root cause is understandable. Still doesn't excuse criminal behavior.

[AZGrizFan]

You’re thinking much too simplistically. It didn’t “unfold” on live TV. That was merely the end result (rightly or wrongly). The roots were sown four years earlier and over the past four years (and not by Trump). Think critically, Mark. It’ll come to you.

The storming of the capital didn't unfold on tv? Then what was I watching!? I think you're trying to get to the root cause (which I get)

I'll take a stab at explaining (something you won't do, btw). You're suggesting that the Jan 6th event was the end result of 4 years of a Republican President being vilified, investigated, stalled, hated, etc... by the Democratic Party. The election occurs, there are shenanigans, there are claims of widespread fraud and you have a leader constantly saying (w/o proving it) the election was stolen, there's fraud, and that we must fight to save our country. You have a leader, incorrectly, saying the VP can not accept the results. And because of all of that, we have a rally which turns into a violent mob which ended with property damage, bodily damage and deaths.

The root cause is understandable. Still doesn't excuse criminal behavior.

Question: at what point is it not criminal? Or is it ALWAYS criminal?

Maybe a better question: At what point is it justified?

[Ibanez]

The storming of the capital didn't unfold on tv? Then what was I watching!? I think you're trying to get to the root cause (which I get)

I'll take a stab at explaining (something you won't do, btw). You're suggesting that the Jan 6th event was the end result of 4 years of a Republican President being vilified, investigated, stalled, hated, etc... by the Democratic Party. The election occurs, there are shenanigans, there are claims of widespread fraud and you have a leader constantly saying (w/o proving it) the election was stolen, there's fraud, and that we must fight to save our country. You have a leader, incorrectly, saying the VP can not accept the results. And because of all of that, we have a rally which turns into a violent mob which ended with property damage, bodily damage and deaths.

The root cause is understandable. Still doesn't excuse criminal behavior.

Question: at what point is it not criminal? Or is it ALWAYS criminal?

Maybe a better question: At what point is it justified?

I actually thought about this about an hour ago and what you just said is the operative word, "justified."

Do you think mob violence is justified when a group has been led to believe false claims? If there was indisputable proof that POTUS X rigged the election and the Government wasn't going to act, I would say it would be justifiable for the citizens to take action and ensure the duly elected official was inaugurated. In 2020, that wasn't the case. 60+ lawsuits, multiple recounts all determined that the Biden was the lawfully elected President.

That's the crux of your argument - was the attack justifiable b/c they honestly believed the mysterious Q and President Trump? Were they led astray? Which brings me to a question - If Trump was the rightful winner and it was so clear, then why didn't he stand up and fight harder? Why didn't he take action that would be justified b/c he was 100% clearly the winner? And why would anyone believe some mysterious stranger on the internet? Talk about lemmings...

Of course, hindsight is 20/20. Murdering a mad man like Idi Aman or Hitler would be justifiable...but it's still murder.

[kalm]

The storming of the capital didn't unfold on tv? Then what was I watching!? I think you're trying to get to the root cause (which I get)

I'll take a stab at explaining (something you won't do, btw). You're suggesting that the Jan 6th event was the end result of 4 years of a Republican President being vilified, investigated, stalled, hated, etc... by the Democratic Party. The election occurs, there are shenanigans, there are claims of widespread fraud and you have a leader constantly saying (w/o proving it) the election was stolen, there's fraud, and that we must fight to save our country. You have a leader, incorrectly, saying the VP can not accept the results. And because of all of that, we have a rally which turns into a violent mob which ended with property damage, bodily damage and deaths.

The root cause is understandable. Still doesn't excuse criminal behavior.

Question: at what point is it not criminal? Or is it ALWAYS criminal?

Maybe a better question: At what point is it justified?

Once the fraud is proven and all peaceful “reasoned” remedies have been exhausted.

[AZGrizFan]

Question: at what point is it not criminal? Or is it ALWAYS criminal?

Maybe a better question: At what point is it justified?

I actually thought about this about an hour ago and what you just said is the operative word, "justified."

Do you think mob violence is justified when a group has been led to believe false claims? If there was indisputable proof that POTUS X rigged the election and the Government wasn't going to act, I would say it would be justifiable for the citizens to take action and ensure the duly elected official was inaugurated. In 2020, that wasn't the case. 60+ lawsuits, multiple recounts all determined that the Biden was the lawfully elected President.

That's the crux of your argument - was the attack justifiable b/c they honestly believed the mysterious Q and President Trump? Were they led astray? Which brings me to a question - If Trump was the rightful winner and it was so clear, then why didn't he stand up and fight harder? Why didn't he take action that would be justified b/c he was 100% clearly the winner? And why would anyone believe some mysterious stranger on the internet? Talk about lemmings...

Of course, hindsight is 20/20. Murdering a mad man like Idi Aman or Hitler would be justifiable...but it's still murder.

Again (at the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time), 1/6 was NOT just about the false claims or a ‘rigged election’. Again, that’s like saying Benghazi was about a video. This was four years (and then some) in the making. The election results were merely the straw that broke the camel’s back, so to speak. So no, you don’t appear to understand the argument at all, despite your attempt to frame it.

[Ibanez]

I actually thought about this about an hour ago and what you just said is the operative word, "justified."

Do you think mob violence is justified when a group has been led to believe false claims? If there was indisputable proof that POTUS X rigged the election and the Government wasn't going to act, I would say it would be justifiable for the citizens to take action and ensure the duly elected official was inaugurated. In 2020, that wasn't the case. 60+ lawsuits, multiple recounts all determined that the Biden was the lawfully elected President.

That's the crux of your argument - was the attack justifiable b/c they honestly believed the mysterious Q and President Trump? Were they led astray? Which brings me to a question - If Trump was the rightful winner and it was so clear, then why didn't he stand up and fight harder? Why didn't he take action that would be justified b/c he was 100% clearly the winner? And why would anyone believe some mysterious stranger on the internet? Talk about lemmings...

Of course, hindsight is 20/20. Murdering a mad man like Idi Aman or Hitler would be justifiable...but it's still murder.

Again (at the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time), 1/6 was NOT just about the false claims or a ‘rigged election’. Again, that’s like saying Benghazi was about a video. This was four years (and then some) in the making. The election results were merely the straw that broke the camel’s back, so to speak. So no, you don’t appear to understand the argument at all, despite your attempt to frame it.

So you don't agree with my previous response:

You're suggesting that the Jan 6th event was the end result of 4 years of a Republican President being vilified, investigated, stalled, hated, etc... by the Democratic Party.

Ugh..this is tiresome. You cant' repeat yourself b/c you haven't explained your position, at least you haven't restated it here. You just shit on those that don't jive with your own.

What is your position? Since you have the answer, please enlighten us.

[AZGrizFan]

Again (at the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time), 1/6 was NOT just about the false claims or a ‘rigged election’. Again, that’s like saying Benghazi was about a video. This was four years (and then some) in the making. The election results were merely the straw that broke the camel’s back, so to speak. So no, you don’t appear to understand the argument at all, despite your attempt to frame it.

So you don't agree with my previous response:

You're suggesting that the Jan 6th event was the end result of 4 years of a Republican President being vilified, investigated, stalled, hated, etc... by the Democratic Party.

Ugh..this is tiresome. You cant' repeat yourself b/c you haven't explained your position, at least you haven't restated it here. You just shit on those that don't jive with your own.

What is your position? Since you have the answer, please enlighten us.

You were close there...but it didn’t just start 4 years ago.

[Ibanez]

So you don't agree with my previous response:


Ugh..this is tiresome. You cant' repeat yourself b/c you haven't explained your position, at least you haven't restated it here. You just shit on those that don't jive with your own.

What is your position? Since you have the answer, please enlighten us.

You were close there...but it didn’t just start 4 years ago.

For crying out loud...are you trolling me? If so...great job.

If not
1) what is preventing you from telling us the real deal
2) You said it was "This was four years (and then some) in the making". And then some is subjective.

Come off it Tom, you're fucking with me.

[kalm]

You were close there...but it didn’t just start 4 years ago.

For crying out loud...are you trolling me? If so...great job.

If not
1) what is preventing you from telling us the real deal
2) You said it was "This was four years (and then some) in the making". And then some is subjective.

Come off it Tom, you're fucking with me.

The best justification is really just an explanation. One of our newest, favorite words...disenfranchisement. Crisis periods being rapid change which leads to insecurity for those who previously controlled society and perceived power. Us middle to old aged white guys who are the scourge of the earth are desperately clinging to power but it’s a losing battle. I’m neither defending nor criticizing history and the impending changes. They’re going to happen. Change is inevitable. White picket fences, church Sundays, and the lollipop song are impermanent. That’s a heavy realization for some...to the point where they take up guns against their barely current and future oppressors.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/le ... story.html

[AZGrizFan]

For crying out loud...are you trolling me? If so...great job.

If not
1) what is preventing you from telling us the real deal
2) You said it was "This was four years (and then some) in the making". And then some is subjective.

Come off it Tom, you're fucking with me.

The best justification is really just an explanation. One of our newest, favorite words...disenfranchisement. Crisis periods being rapid change which leads to insecurity for those who previously controlled society and perceived power. Us middle to old aged white guys who are the scourge of the earth are desperately clinging to power but it’s a losing battle. I’m neither defending nor criticizing history and the impending changes. They’re going to happen. Change is inevitable. White picket fences, church Sundays, and the lollipop song are impermanent. That’s a heavy realization for some...to the point where they take up guns against their barely current and future oppressors.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/le ... story.html

Yes, change is inevitable if you’re unwilling to defend what you have. Using your logic, a girl should just lay back and enjoy it if she’s being raped. I mean, it’s inevitable, right?

[kalm]

The best justification is really just an explanation. One of our newest, favorite words...disenfranchisement. Crisis periods being rapid change which leads to insecurity for those who previously controlled society and perceived power. Us middle to old aged white guys who are the scourge of the earth are desperately clinging to power but it’s a losing battle. I’m neither defending nor criticizing history and the impending changes. They’re going to happen. Change is inevitable. White picket fences, church Sundays, and the lollipop song are impermanent. That’s a heavy realization for some...to the point where they take up guns against their barely current and future oppressors.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/le ... story.html

Yes, change is inevitable if you’re unwilling to defend what you have. Using your logic, a girl should just lay back and enjoy it if she’s being raped. I mean, it’s inevitable, right?

Show me on the doll where the bad liberal touched you.

There was time in our history where your scenario was acceptable and change became consent.

[89Hen]

Show me on the doll where the bad liberal touched you.

15 yards for overuse of the same schtick.

[UNI88]

For crying out loud...are you trolling me? If so...great job.

If not
1) what is preventing you from telling us the real deal
2) You said it was "This was four years (and then some) in the making". And then some is subjective.

Come off it Tom, you're fucking with me.

The best justification is really just an explanation. One of our newest, favorite words...disenfranchisement. Crisis periods being rapid change which leads to insecurity for those who previously controlled society and perceived power. Us middle to old aged white guys who are the scourge of the earth are desperately clinging to power but it’s a losing battle. I’m neither defending nor criticizing history and the impending changes. They’re going to happen. Change is inevitable. White picket fences, church Sundays, and the lollipop song are impermanent. That’s a heavy realization for some...to the point where they take up guns against their barely current and future oppressors.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/le ... story.html

Change is inevitable. You might not be able to stop change from happening but you can influence the direction of the change. Swinging the pendulum toward equity for all is a noble and laudable goal. Swinging the pendulum past equity where those who have been oppressed hold sway and oppress their former oppressors is not.

Intolerance for traditional, conservative beliefs is still intolerance and intolerance is illiberal.

[CID1990]

The title of this thread is odd

Is there really a reason based emotion?

Is there an emotion that isn’t based in passion?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kalm]

Show me on the doll where the bad liberal touched you.

15 yards for overuse of the same schtick.

You’re right. Should have used this.

[kalm]

The best justification is really just an explanation. One of our newest, favorite words...disenfranchisement. Crisis periods being rapid change which leads to insecurity for those who previously controlled society and perceived power. Us middle to old aged white guys who are the scourge of the earth are desperately clinging to power but it’s a losing battle. I’m neither defending nor criticizing history and the impending changes. They’re going to happen. Change is inevitable. White picket fences, church Sundays, and the lollipop song are impermanent. That’s a heavy realization for some...to the point where they take up guns against their barely current and future oppressors.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/le ... story.html

Change is inevitable. You might not be able to stop change from happening but you can influence the direction of the change. Swinging the pendulum toward equity for all is a noble and laudable goal. Swinging the pendulum past equity where those who have been oppressed hold sway and oppress their former oppressors is not.

Intolerance for traditional, conservative beliefs is still intolerance and intolerance is illiberal.

Some intolerance isn’t bad though, right? Regardless of politics?

[UNI88]

Change is inevitable. You might not be able to stop change from happening but you can influence the direction of the change. Swinging the pendulum toward equity for all is a noble and laudable goal. Swinging the pendulum past equity where those who have been oppressed hold sway and oppress their former oppressors is not.

Intolerance for traditional, conservative beliefs is still intolerance and intolerance is illiberal.

Some intolerance isn’t bad though, right? Regardless of politics?

Intolerance for violence, hate, etc. isn't bad but a true liberal tries to understand and address the intolerance. Disguising intolerance for religion as intolerance for hate is just as bad as disguising hate as religion.

[kalm]

Some intolerance isn’t bad though, right? Regardless of politics?

Intolerance for violence, hate, etc. isn't bad but a true liberal tries to understand and address the intolerance. Disguising intolerance for religion as intolerance for hate is just as bad as disguising hate as religion.

Can I hate the intolerant parts of religion or do I have to accept it all?

I simply used religion for historical cultural norms that are going away. I personally remember church Sundays as pleasant affairs. I also think they continue to provide a positive influence on many people’s lives.

Your liberal litmus test betrays more about what’s present in your own dark heart.

[AZGrizFan]

15 yards for overuse of the same schtick.

You’re right. Should have used this.

Classic deflection. If we don’t like the socialist woke bullshit being foisted upon us and have the temerity to actually voice an opinion, we’re now playing the victim card. Call it whatever you want, klam. Honestly, I don’t really care...but it is what it is...a large, large portion of the electorate is getting more and more fed up with the bullshit “wokeness, blame whitey for everything, victim mentality, woe-is-me, identity politics, all masculinity is toxic, 265 genders, abort at will, erasing history, socialism is the cure” hypocrisy that IS the illiberal left and that has been spoon fed to Americans for the past 25 years. And the questionable election results were the final straw. Change may be inevitable, but not all change is good. And that’s a fucking LAUNDRY list of horrid ideas.

[89Hen]

It is the best recipe for the DNC to go down the toilet more than the GOP. It really feels like a race to the bottom. Who knows? Maybe you big L libertarians will get 8% in the next election.

[kalm]

You’re right. Should have used this.

Classic deflection. If we don’t like the socialist woke bullshit being foisted upon us and have the temerity to actually voice an opinion, we’re now playing the victim card. Call it whatever you want, klam. Honestly, I don’t really care...but it is what it is...a large, large portion of the electorate is getting more and more fed up with the bullshit “wokeness, blame whitey for everything, victim mentality, woe-is-me, identity politics, all masculinity is toxic, 265 genders, abort at will, erasing history, socialism is the cure” hypocrisy that IS the illiberal left and that has been spoon fed to Americans for the past 25 years. And the questionable election results were the final straw. Change may be inevitable, but not all change is good. And that’s a fucking LAUNDRY list of horrid ideas.

Further proving my deflection.

FWIW, I agree with most of what you said.

[AZGrizFan]

Classic deflection. If we don’t like the socialist woke bullshit being foisted upon us and have the temerity to actually voice an opinion, we’re now playing the victim card. Call it whatever you want, klam. Honestly, I don’t really care...but it is what it is...a large, large portion of the electorate is getting more and more fed up with the bullshit “wokeness, blame whitey for everything, victim mentality, woe-is-me, identity politics, all masculinity is toxic, 265 genders, abort at will, erasing history, socialism is the cure” hypocrisy that IS the illiberal left and that has been spoon fed to Americans for the past 25 years. And the questionable election results were the final straw. Change may be inevitable, but not all change is good. And that’s a fucking LAUNDRY list of horrid ideas.

Further proving my deflection.

FWIW, I agree with most of what you said.

See, it doesn’t hurt my feelings if you say I’m playing the victim card. Are blacks playing the victim card or the race card when they complain about the way they’re treated? As 88 so eloquently said, when the pendulum swings so far to the other side that the oppressed are now oppressing their oppressors, well then then entire society has pretty much jumped the shark. So call me whatever you’d like, doesn’t change the fact that my previous post has waaaaaay more to do with what happened on 1/6 than just the appearance of a stolen election. That was just the icing on the cake.

Oh and newsflash: The next four years? Dems will be pouring gasoline on THAT fire, and we can expect another giant swing in the other direction in 2024.

[kalm]

Further proving my deflection.

FWIW, I agree with most of what you said.

See, it doesn’t hurt my feelings if you say I’m playing the victim card. Are blacks playing the victim card or the race card when they complain about the way they’re treated? As 88 so eloquently said, when the pendulum swings so far to the other side that the oppressed are now oppressing their oppressors, well then then entire society has pretty much jumped the shark. So call me whatever you’d like, doesn’t change the fact that my previous post has waaaaaay more to do with what happened on 1/6 than just the appearance of a stolen election. That was just the icing on the cake.

Oh and newsflash: The next four years? Dems will be pouring gasoline on THAT fire, and we can expect another giant swing in the other direction in 2024.

Of course! Just like unaffordable healthcare, hyper-inflation of essential services, deferment of environmental cleanup and infrastructure needs didn’t happen overnight either. Unravelings take a couple of decades followed by a couple of decades of crisis.

The pendulum isn’t really swinging all that far once you recognize how much we’ve let things go. That swing is what also takes us out of crisis.

Regardless of all that and your sense of wealth equality, debt spending etc, the average Joe has an expectation of a high standard of living and they will rally, riot, cheat the system, or simply leave to get theirs...just like the upper classes have done.