Teaching Values

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Teaching Values

Post by kalm »

Should there be more to education than simply the value of a degree in terms of employment and ability to pay off loans?

IMHO, the world needs poets and artists too...and Chris Hedges is spot on here...

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(BTW...wish we had more educators on cs rather than just 88’s temp gig and 89’s wife.)
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by Winterborn »

kalm wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:32 am Should there be more to education than simply the value of a degree in terms of employment and ability to pay off loans?

IMHO, the world needs poets and artists too...and Chris Hedges is spot on here...

Image

(BTW...wish we had more educators on here rather than 88’s temp gig and 89’s wife.)
Let the market determine how many of each we need. :coffee: Teach kids how to think critically and ask questions, give a strong foundation in basic math/science and the arts. It is perfectly fine to pursue ones dreams, just realize that not everybody has the ability be the next poet laureate or astronaut. One can be a engineer/mechanic/shopworker and write poetry. Your current role does not limit what your side hobbies/passions are but can in fact bolster those creative juices and help one relate to the people you would like to reach. The desire for instant gratification is a bigger issue and is not to be blamed solely on the individuals education.......
“The best of all things is to learn. Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.” – Louis L’Amour

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by AZGrizFan »

We need to teach children TO think, not WHAT to think. Sadly, it's a dying art.

We also need to eliminate algebra, or incorporate personal finance into algebra so individuals leave HS with a basic understanding of how the world works.
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by Winterborn »

AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:48 am We need to teach children TO think, not WHAT to think. Sadly, it's a dying art.

We also need to eliminate algebra, or incorporate personal finance into algebra so individuals leave HS with a basic understanding of how the world works.
This is key. :nod:

A course touching basic algebra/geometry I think is still needed but not more than the basics in HS. Much more important is personal finance/general economics, maybe even a general government course in how the local/national government works, with field trips to a court case/council meeting/zoning board, etc. Real world experience and knowledge is severely lacking from what I have seen in kids coming out of HS and even college.
“The best of all things is to learn. Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.” – Louis L’Amour

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by UNI88 »

Winterborn wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:46 am
kalm wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:32 am Should there be more to education than simply the value of a degree in terms of employment and ability to pay off loans?

IMHO, the world needs poets and artists too...and Chris Hedges is spot on here...

Image

(BTW...wish we had more educators on here rather than 88’s temp gig and 89’s wife.)
Let the market determine how many of each we need. :coffee: Teach kids how to think critically and ask questions, give a strong foundation in basic math/science and the arts. It is perfectly fine to pursue ones dreams, just realize that not everybody has the ability be the next poet laureate or astronaut. One can be a engineer/mechanic/shopworker and write poetry. Your current role does not limit what your side hobbies/passions are but can in fact bolster those creative juices and help one relate to the people you would like to reach. The desire for instant gratification is a bigger issue and is not to be blamed solely on the individuals education.......
:nod: We do need poets and artists but we don't need them to borrow huge sums of money to pursue their passion and then complain when they can't repay the loans. Commons sense should be encouraged and rewarded. I have a BA in political science with a minor in economics. I pitched potential employers on my ability to think and solve problems to find a job but my first job really came because my older brother knew someone (which is a form of privilege).

As Winter states, you can have a job that pays the bills and still be a poet or an artist. Alternatively, do you need a college education to be a poet or an artist? We put far too great of an emphasis on a college education. Forgiving loans and/or making college free turns a college degree into what a high school degree is today and just exacerbates the problem. Trade schools are just as valuable and life teaches far more than college but we don't value life experience as much as we should.

IMO, No Child Left Behind (Bush II) and Every Student Succeeds (Obama) really accelerated the push to "teach to the test" rather than teaching critical thinking and problem solving skills. They're a huge reason I oppose overbearing federal government involvement in education.

Give some props to Fiver's experience with education as well. I find his experience and perspective extremely valuable.
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by Ibanez »

AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:48 am We need to teach children TO think, not WHAT to think. Sadly, it's a dying art.

We also need to eliminate algebra, or incorporate personal finance into algebra so individuals leave HS with a basic understanding of how the world works.
Nailed it!!! Personal finance to include the basics of taxes.

And maybe....just maybe a class titled, "You Aren't Special!!"
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by Winterborn »

Ibanez wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:27 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:48 am We need to teach children TO think, not WHAT to think. Sadly, it's a dying art.

We also need to eliminate algebra, or incorporate personal finance into algebra so individuals leave HS with a basic understanding of how the world works.
Nailed it!!! Personal finance to include the basics of taxes.

And maybe....just maybe a class titled, "You Aren't Special!!"
Should be taught by former marine drill instructors and given mostly full immunity. Might help with the obesity problem as well if we combine it with PE. :D


That said, some of my favorite poets/artists are by people that held a real job and wrote/painted by what they experienced in life.
“The best of all things is to learn. Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.” – Louis L’Amour

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by AZGrizFan »

Winterborn wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:45 am
Ibanez wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:27 am

Nailed it!!! Personal finance to include the basics of taxes.

And maybe....just maybe a class titled, "You Aren't Special!!"
Should be taught by former marine drill instructors and given mostly full immunity. Might help with the obesity problem as well if we combine it with PE. :D


That said, some of my favorite poets/artists are by people that held a real job and wrote/painted by what they experienced in life.
Some great ideas here. Keep 'em comin' fellas.
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by houndawg »

AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:48 am We need to teach children TO think, not WHAT to think. Sadly, it's a dying art.

We also need to eliminate algebra, or incorporate personal finance into algebra so individuals leave HS with a basic understanding of how the world works.
this mucho, but keep the algebra, that shit is important
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by AZGrizFan »

houndawg wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:09 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:48 am We need to teach children TO think, not WHAT to think. Sadly, it's a dying art.

We also need to eliminate algebra, or incorporate personal finance into algebra so individuals leave HS with a basic understanding of how the world works.
this mucho, but keep the algebra, that shit is important
That's why I said incorporate real-world uses. Everyone I know says "why do I need to learn about adding letters together????" Use personal finance and other real-world financial examples and incorporate teaching of algebra that way....and newsflash, most folks are never going to have to use algebra to expand (4x2 + 8x + 4), but if you applied it correctly they would understand what its uses really are.
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by 89Hen »

kalm wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:32 am Should there be more to education than simply the value of a degree in terms of employment and ability to pay off loans?

IMHO, the world needs poets and artists too...and Chris Hedges is spot on here...

(BTW...wish we had more educators on cs rather than just 88’s temp gig and 89’s wife.)
Daughter, but I think his quote is cute. Go ahead and get that liberal arts degree for $50,000 a year. :roll:

His quote is really no less laughable than Judge Smails "the world needs ditchdiggers too" IMO.
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by kalm »

89Hen wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:38 pm
kalm wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:32 am Should there be more to education than simply the value of a degree in terms of employment and ability to pay off loans?

IMHO, the world needs poets and artists too...and Chris Hedges is spot on here...

(BTW...wish we had more educators on cs rather than just 88’s temp gig and 89’s wife.)
Daughter, but I think his quote is cute. Go ahead and get that liberal arts degree for $50,000 a year. :roll:

His quote is really no less laughable than Judge Smails "the world needs ditchdiggers too" IMO.
I think you’re cute.
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by kalm »

Winterborn wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:46 am
kalm wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:32 am Should there be more to education than simply the value of a degree in terms of employment and ability to pay off loans?

IMHO, the world needs poets and artists too...and Chris Hedges is spot on here...

Image

(BTW...wish we had more educators on here rather than 88’s temp gig and 89’s wife.)
Let the market determine how many of each we need. :coffee: Teach kids how to think critically and ask questions, give a strong foundation in basic math/science and the arts. It is perfectly fine to pursue ones dreams, just realize that not everybody has the ability be the next poet laureate or astronaut. One can be a engineer/mechanic/shopworker and write poetry. Your current role does not limit what your side hobbies/passions are but can in fact bolster those creative juices and help one relate to the people you would like to reach. The desire for instant gratification is a bigger issue and is not to be blamed solely on the individuals education.......
Some fair points expanding the discussion but going back to just the original quote, what do you disagree with?

How does the market prioritize and/or reward compassion and critical thinking? It would seem the market in many instances desires automatons who are paid to follow a script and not deviate.

Beyond all of that, this is something my oldest is struggling with. Smart kid and way too cynical for his age regarding his future, what he wants to study. It’s an interesting conversation to me.
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:22 am
Winterborn wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:46 am

Let the market determine how many of each we need. :coffee: Teach kids how to think critically and ask questions, give a strong foundation in basic math/science and the arts. It is perfectly fine to pursue ones dreams, just realize that not everybody has the ability be the next poet laureate or astronaut. One can be a engineer/mechanic/shopworker and write poetry. Your current role does not limit what your side hobbies/passions are but can in fact bolster those creative juices and help one relate to the people you would like to reach. The desire for instant gratification is a bigger issue and is not to be blamed solely on the individuals education.......
:nod: We do need poets and artists but we don't need them to borrow huge sums of money to pursue their passion and then complain when they can't repay the loans. Commons sense should be encouraged and rewarded. I have a BA in political science with a minor in economics. I pitched potential employers on my ability to think and solve problems to find a job but my first job really came because my older brother knew someone (which is a form of privilege).

As Winter states, you can have a job that pays the bills and still be a poet or an artist. Alternatively, do you need a college education to be a poet or an artist? We put far too great of an emphasis on a college education. Forgiving loans and/or making college free turns a college degree into what a high school degree is today and just exacerbates the problem. Trade schools are just as valuable and life teaches far more than college but we don't value life experience as much as we should.

IMO, No Child Left Behind (Bush II) and Every Student Succeeds (Obama) really accelerated the push to "teach to the test" rather than teaching critical thinking and problem solving skills. They're a huge reason I oppose overbearing federal government involvement in education.

Give some props to Fiver's experience with education as well. I find his experience and perspective extremely valuable.
Good call on Fiver. I look forward to his insight.
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:53 am
Winterborn wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:46 am

Let the market determine how many of each we need. :coffee: Teach kids how to think critically and ask questions, give a strong foundation in basic math/science and the arts. It is perfectly fine to pursue ones dreams, just realize that not everybody has the ability be the next poet laureate or astronaut. One can be a engineer/mechanic/shopworker and write poetry. Your current role does not limit what your side hobbies/passions are but can in fact bolster those creative juices and help one relate to the people you would like to reach. The desire for instant gratification is a bigger issue and is not to be blamed solely on the individuals education.......
Some fair points expanding the discussion but going back to just the original quote, what do you disagree with?

How does the market prioritize and/or reward compassion and critical thinking? It would seem the market in many instances desires automatons who are paid to follow a script and not deviate.

Beyond all of that, this is something my oldest is struggling with. Smart kid and way too cynical for his age regarding his future, what he wants to study. It’s an interesting conversation to me.
Political parties want automatons too.
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:30 am
kalm wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:53 am

Some fair points expanding the discussion but going back to just the original quote, what do you disagree with?

How does the market prioritize and/or reward compassion and critical thinking? It would seem the market in many instances desires automatons who are paid to follow a script and not deviate.

Beyond all of that, this is something my oldest is struggling with. Smart kid and way too cynical for his age regarding his future, what he wants to study. It’s an interesting conversation to me.
Political parties want automatons too.
That goes without saying. I agree.
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by HI54UNI »

The quote is fine. The problem is how to apply it. Money makes the world go. As others have noted why can't we have both? Why does he portray them as mutually exclusive?

Our education system is terribly broken. The feds need to get out of it. Generally everything they touch makes things worse. The one size fits all is a big problem. A need/problem/issue in Los Angeles is likely very different than BFE Iowa. The feds set standards that require more testing. Schools spend all their time trying to make sure kids meet the standards because no school district wants their school labeled as a failing school. The fed rules make it difficult to add more practical life classes because there isn't enough hours in the day. There's very little opportunity to try something different. Look at some of the discussion now about charter schools or vouchers. Instantly our D & R parties line up against/for with no discussion on the merits of the idea. I worked directly in city government for 15 years and have been on the edge of city government for the last 13 years. I'm in my 14th year as a school board member. When I worked for the city and still today I see the state and federal bureaucracy that cities have to deal with. It was a pain but not terrible. The mayor and city council still had a lot of authority and control over the city's destiny. Cities have nothing compared to schools. Yes, there is a local school board but the amount of control we have is really minuscule in comparison because of all the federal and state mandates.

We make kids regurgitate facts or memorize formulas for a test instead of making sure they understand how the formula works - the whole critical thinking thing. It's not 1875 any more, they don't need to memorize the formula because it is already in their hand, they need to know how to apply it. Everyday we make kids waste time in classrooms on things they will never use and don't help them learn to think.

I could rant more but I don't want a JSO length post. :mrgreen:
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by UNI88 »

HI54UNI wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:56 am The quote is fine. The problem is how to apply it. Money makes the world go. As others have noted why can't we have both? Why does he portray them as mutually exclusive?

Our education system is terribly broken. The feds need to get out of it. Generally everything they touch makes things worse. The one size fits all is a big problem. A need/problem/issue in Los Angeles is likely very different than BFE Iowa. The feds set standards that require more testing. Schools spend all their time trying to make sure kids meet the standards because no school district wants their school labeled as a failing school. The fed rules make it difficult to add more practical life classes because there isn't enough hours in the day. There's very little opportunity to try something different. Look at some of the discussion now about charter schools or vouchers. Instantly our D & R parties line up against/for with no discussion on the merits of the idea. I worked directly in city government for 15 years and have been on the edge of city government for the last 13 years. I'm in my 14th year as a school board member. When I worked for the city and still today I see the state and federal bureaucracy that cities have to deal with. It was a pain but not terrible. The mayor and city council still had a lot of authority and control over the city's destiny. Cities have nothing compared to schools. Yes, there is a local school board but the amount of control we have is really minuscule in comparison because of all the federal and state mandates.

We make kids regurgitate facts or memorize formulas for a test instead of making sure they understand how the formula works - the whole critical thinking thing. It's not 1875 any more, they don't need to memorize the formula because it is already in their hand, they need to know how to apply it. Everyday we make kids waste time in classrooms on things they will never use and don't help them learn to think.

I could rant more but I don't want a JSO length post. :mrgreen:
:nod:

I would add that not all teachers are doing this. There are some really good ones who are finding ways to teach students how to think within the restrictions of federal and state mandates.
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by SuperHornet »

Winterborn wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:51 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:48 am We need to teach children TO think, not WHAT to think. Sadly, it's a dying art.

We also need to eliminate algebra, or incorporate personal finance into algebra so individuals leave HS with a basic understanding of how the world works.
This is key. :nod:

A course touching basic algebra/geometry I think is still needed but not more than the basics in HS. Much more important is personal finance/general economics, maybe even a general government course in how the local/national government works, with field trips to a court case/council meeting/zoning board, etc. Real world experience and knowledge is severely lacking from what I have seen in kids coming out of HS and even college.
Agree with both of you. A long-standing major complaint about those who teach the Bible these days is a lack of application; people read for personal knowledge, but don't know what to do with it. This argument is based on the old adage that knowledge is useless unless it's used. The same is true in "regular" education. It used to be common for at least the last section of a unit in math, science, etc., to be devoted to real-life application. I'm not so sure this is still going on. Nobody knows how to count change anymore, since the computer does it. Nobody wants to talk anymore because they'd rather get a text, which is totally devoid of tone of voice, gestures, or anything else that would indicate mood. (i.e. Is someone stressing what they're actually saying, or are they joshing with you?) While I don't really care for the idea that ALL of kids TV should be school related, the PBS Odd Squad show is really good at getting kids to see how math relates to the real world. This might also be part of what's behind this "switch" that gets flipped sometime around junior high that tells girls that they inherently "can't" do STEM. It's completely bogus, but they buy into it, and therefore make it a self-fulfilling prophecy. We need more examples like Dr. Mayim Bialik (Ph.D., neuroscience) and Dr. Danica McKellar (Ph.D., math) to show them the way. And, for guys, Dr. Brian May (Ph.D., astrophysics) would be a good example that having a talent for music does NOT rule you out for doing great things in science, too. There are plenty of examples in the world of sports, too, like Dr. Shaquille Oneal (Ed.D.), and OL Dr. Laurent Duvernay-Tardif (M.D.) But it all starts with getting a good foundation in application of math and science in grade school.

Thank you, AZ and Winterborn, for pointing this out.
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by HI54UNI »

UNI88 wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:13 pm
HI54UNI wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:56 am The quote is fine. The problem is how to apply it. Money makes the world go. As others have noted why can't we have both? Why does he portray them as mutually exclusive?

Our education system is terribly broken. The feds need to get out of it. Generally everything they touch makes things worse. The one size fits all is a big problem. A need/problem/issue in Los Angeles is likely very different than BFE Iowa. The feds set standards that require more testing. Schools spend all their time trying to make sure kids meet the standards because no school district wants their school labeled as a failing school. The fed rules make it difficult to add more practical life classes because there isn't enough hours in the day. There's very little opportunity to try something different. Look at some of the discussion now about charter schools or vouchers. Instantly our D & R parties line up against/for with no discussion on the merits of the idea. I worked directly in city government for 15 years and have been on the edge of city government for the last 13 years. I'm in my 14th year as a school board member. When I worked for the city and still today I see the state and federal bureaucracy that cities have to deal with. It was a pain but not terrible. The mayor and city council still had a lot of authority and control over the city's destiny. Cities have nothing compared to schools. Yes, there is a local school board but the amount of control we have is really minuscule in comparison because of all the federal and state mandates.

We make kids regurgitate facts or memorize formulas for a test instead of making sure they understand how the formula works - the whole critical thinking thing. It's not 1875 any more, they don't need to memorize the formula because it is already in their hand, they need to know how to apply it. Everyday we make kids waste time in classrooms on things they will never use and don't help them learn to think.

I could rant more but I don't want a JSO length post. :mrgreen:
:nod:

I would add that not all teachers are doing this. There are some really good ones who are finding ways to teach students how to think within the restrictions of federal and state mandates.
Thanks for noting that. I'm not putting blame on teachers. They're dealing with the hand they are dealt. Teacher unions on the other hand are a pox on society.
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by UNI88 »

HI54UNI wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:43 pm
UNI88 wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:13 pm
:nod:

I would add that not all teachers are doing this. There are some really good ones who are finding ways to teach students how to think within the restrictions of federal and state mandates.
Thanks for noting that. I'm not putting blame on teachers. They're dealing with the hand they are dealt. Teacher unions on the other hand are a pox on society.
I know you're not (putting blame on teachers).

The teachers union where I taught was actually pretty good. They looked out for the teachers' best interests but they also considered what was in the best interests of the students. But that was a unified district (unusual in Illinois) with over 7,000 students, so union leaders were full-time teachers. I was a sub so I didn't need to belong but they would ask for my opinion and invite me to their events. The Chicago Teachers Union on the other hand ...
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by kalm »

SuperHornet wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:39 pm
Winterborn wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:51 am

This is key. :nod:

A course touching basic algebra/geometry I think is still needed but not more than the basics in HS. Much more important is personal finance/general economics, maybe even a general government course in how the local/national government works, with field trips to a court case/council meeting/zoning board, etc. Real world experience and knowledge is severely lacking from what I have seen in kids coming out of HS and even college.
Agree with both of you. A long-standing major complaint about those who teach the Bible these days is a lack of application; people read for personal knowledge, but don't know what to do with it. This argument is based on the old adage that knowledge is useless unless it's used. The same is true in "regular" education. It used to be common for at least the last section of a unit in math, science, etc., to be devoted to real-life application. I'm not so sure this is still going on. Nobody knows how to count change anymore, since the computer does it. Nobody wants to talk anymore because they'd rather get a text, which is totally devoid of tone of voice, gestures, or anything else that would indicate mood. (i.e. Is someone stressing what they're actually saying, or are they joshing with you?) While I don't really care for the idea that ALL of kids TV should be school related, the PBS Odd Squad show is really good at getting kids to see how math relates to the real world. This might also be part of what's behind this "switch" that gets flipped sometime around junior high that tells girls that they inherently "can't" do STEM. It's completely bogus, but they buy into it, and therefore make it a self-fulfilling prophecy. We need more examples like Dr. Mayim Bialik (Ph.D., neuroscience) and Dr. Danica McKellar (Ph.D., math) to show them the way. And, for guys, Dr. Brian May (Ph.D., astrophysics) would be a good example that having a talent for music does NOT rule you out for doing great things in science, too. There are plenty of examples in the world of sports, too, like Dr. Shaquille Oneal (Ed.D.), and OL Dr. Laurent Duvernay-Tardif (M.D.) But it all starts with getting a good foundation in application of math and science in grade school.

Thank you, AZ and Winterborn, for pointing this out.
Good post, SH. :thumb:
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by kalm »

HI54UNI wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:43 pm
UNI88 wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:13 pm

:nod:

I would add that not all teachers are doing this. There are some really good ones who are finding ways to teach students how to think within the restrictions of federal and state mandates.
Thanks for noting that. I'm not putting blame on teachers. They're dealing with the hand they are dealt. Teacher unions on the other hand are a pox on society.
Great discussion and ideas from everyone here.

I have an old school mate who’s teaching at Cheney HS is winning national media recognition for his campaign on stoicism, doing away with grades and emphasis on teaching young humans instead of subjects.

Creative writing tends to not put food on the table or pay off loans. I get that. But it’s still more important than many realize.
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Re: Teaching Values

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kalm wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:53 am
Winterborn wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:46 am

Let the market determine how many of each we need. :coffee: Teach kids how to think critically and ask questions, give a strong foundation in basic math/science and the arts. It is perfectly fine to pursue ones dreams, just realize that not everybody has the ability be the next poet laureate or astronaut. One can be a engineer/mechanic/shopworker and write poetry. Your current role does not limit what your side hobbies/passions are but can in fact bolster those creative juices and help one relate to the people you would like to reach. The desire for instant gratification is a bigger issue and is not to be blamed solely on the individuals education.......
Some fair points expanding the discussion but going back to just the original quote, what do you disagree with?

How does the market prioritize and/or reward compassion and critical thinking? It would seem the market in many instances desires automatons who are paid to follow a script and not deviate.

Beyond all of that, this is something my oldest is struggling with. Smart kid and way too cynical for his age regarding his future, what he wants to study. It’s an interesting conversation to me.
Life aka work got in the way of me getting back to you in a timely manner but Fiver said it better than I could of.

But to your last paragraph, before I was even a teenager I had a extremely good idea in how the world worked and functioned. Both the good and the bad and if I can presume, I would be willing to bet that myself and your son are probably quite a bit alike comparing my age/thoughts to your sons based on your posting patterns. While there is a tendency of people who some call cynical (and while some are, I would say others are just realists ;) ) to go down the depression route, I have found the best way to stay out that mindset is discussion like what we have on this board, with family, or friends to get that outside perspective and remember that one can think that way, but not to let it consume a person. It is easier said than done I know, especially when one is younger but life is a marathon not a sprint to state an overused cliche.

Personal story, my little brother and I discus politics, economics, and related matters probably about 5 hours a week. Two years ago he said to me that I am a cycnic for saying certain things in how the world works and the direction this country is going. Late last fall he brought up the same conversation and told me he was wrong and that I was right and am not as cynical as he once thought. I just mentioned that I am a realist; I know enough of how the world works from being in the corporate and government side long enough and just keeping my ears open, asking a question here and there, while letting people talk. Being a realist has served me very well in my career and has let me avoid pitfalls that some of my classmates and colleges have fallen into. Moderation is key though. :thumb:

Was thinking about a reply to your question this afternoon and this statement popped into my head: Today's cynic, is tomorrow's realist, and the futures optimist. Being a bit cynical is a good thing as it tempers ones expectations and helps a person navigate life in a more orderly fashion. At least it did for me, but then again I am an engineer which I have been told by multiple people that the rules don't really apply to us and we are a different cat so to speak from the rest of humanity. Something about our brains being wired uniquely. :D
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Re: Teaching Values

Post by kalm »

Winterborn wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:17 pm
kalm wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:53 am

Some fair points expanding the discussion but going back to just the original quote, what do you disagree with?

How does the market prioritize and/or reward compassion and critical thinking? It would seem the market in many instances desires automatons who are paid to follow a script and not deviate.

Beyond all of that, this is something my oldest is struggling with. Smart kid and way too cynical for his age regarding his future, what he wants to study. It’s an interesting conversation to me.
Life aka work got in the way of me getting back to you in a timely manner but Fiver said it better than I could of.

But to your last paragraph, before I was even a teenager I had a extremely good idea in how the world worked and functioned. Both the good and the bad and if I can presume, I would be willing to bet that myself and your son are probably quite a bit alike comparing my age/thoughts to your sons based on your posting patterns. While there is a tendency of people who some call cynical (and while some are, I would say others are just realists ;) ) to go down the depression route, I have found the best way to stay out that mindset is discussion like what we have on this board, with family, or friends to get that outside perspective and remember that one can think that way, but not to let it consume a person. It is easier said than done I know, especially when one is younger but life is a marathon not a sprint to state an overused cliche.

Personal story, my little brother and I discus politics, economics, and related matters probably about 5 hours a week. Two years ago he said to me that I am a cycnic for saying certain things in how the world works and the direction this country is going. Late last fall he brought up the same conversation and told me he was wrong and that I was right and am not as cynical as he once thought. I just mentioned that I am a realist; I know enough of how the world works from being in the corporate and government side long enough and just keeping my ears open, asking a question here and there, while letting people talk. Being a realist has served me very well in my career and has let me avoid pitfalls that some of my classmates and colleges have fallen into. Moderation is key though. :thumb:

Was thinking about a reply to your question this afternoon and this statement popped into my head: Today's cynic, is tomorrow's realist, and the futures optimist. Being a bit cynical is a good thing as it tempers ones expectations and helps a person navigate life in a more orderly fashion. At least it did for me, but then again I am an engineer which I have been told by multiple people that the rules don't really apply to us and we are a different cat so to speak from the rest of humanity. Something about our brains being wired uniquely. :D
Thanks for the thoughtful post, WB. :thumb:

I once accused my older brother of just being a cynic and he pointed out the definition and asked me if I knew what the OG cynics were all about.

:)

If I call someone a cynic these days it’s rarely intended as an insult. That said, realism, while important, can be taxing in facing today’s America.

It might cause you to have trust issues personally and professionally...or wonder if the US (or fellow man for that matter) is truly exceptional.

:mrgreen:
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