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I'm sure there must be comments about what's going on with Afghanistan already. But I don't see an obvious thread. Maybe there is one and I just don't see it.

Anyway, this his disgraceful. I voted for Biden and I would do so again given the options. Also Trump is the one who originally made the agreement to do what we are basically doing. But this is awful.

To some extent I hesitate to say things like this because I have never been in the military and none of my children are now. So I don't have to suffer anything to keep troops anywhere. But, at the same time, I think this thing where people in the United States have to see an end point for military action really hurts this country. We have enemies that think in terms of millennia. And we think that there has to be some kind of time limit. It means our enemies know they can get their ass kicked repeatedly in terms of battles but if they can JUST maintain a pulse they will eventually outlast us.

Beyond that, in this case, we are throwing 10s of millions of people to the wolves. We may not like the fact our military presence was the only thing that stood between 10s of millions of people and complete horror. But it's the reality. Doing what we've done by abandoning them is immoral. It's wrong.

Then there's the fact that we do have commitments that apparently have no timelines in other places. The Korean war armistice went into effect 68 years ago. We still have 28,000 troops stationed in South Korea. What makes the South Korean people more important than the people of Afghanistan? There was a time when we were in a global contest with the Soviet Union and that added something. But that time is long past.

Why is it that we can stay in South Korea for 68 years with not even a hint of putting a time limit on it then say that 20 years is too long in Afghanistan so it's OK to send 10s of millions of people to hell?

Well put, John. Biden set the table for the Taliban by announcing the August 31 withdrawal deadline months in advance. And the drawdown of troops and withdrawal of personnel should have been coordinated better, with a view to getting the Afghan translators/ interpreters and their families out safely. Somebody screwed up royally on the intel about the Taliban offensive possibilities. No good outcomes here, to our shame, even if you argue that we shouldn’t have been there to begin with. In the meantime, old man Biden vacations in Rehoboth.

Ivytalk wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:52 pm Well put, John. Biden set the table for the Taliban by announcing the August 31 withdrawal deadline months in advance. And the drawdown of troops and withdrawal of personnel should have been coordinated better, with a view to getting the Afghan translators/ interpreters and their families out safely. Somebody screwed up royally on the intel about the Taliban offensive possibilities. No good outcomes here, to our shame, even if you argue that we shouldn’t have been there to begin with. In the meantime, old man Biden vacations in Rehoboth.

I go beyond specific politicians like Biden and Trump to a deeper problem associated with the People of the United States. It's this thing where we think there has to be some definite end point. When we are talking about Islamists, we are talking about people who don't think like that. They don't care if it takes 10,000 years.

Of course it started before the Islamists with Vietnam. It was a war in which we never lost a significant battle yet quit because the enemy maintained a pulse. To me, if we get into something, we should get into it with an "as long as it takes" attitude. There shouldn't be this attitude that it has to end within a short time frame by historical standards or we are going to quit.

If we don't want to get into something, fine. But this crap of getting into something then quitting even though we are kicking the hell out of the enemy in every engagement because the enemy hasn't totally gone away really needs to stop.

And if we are in a situation like this one was there is also a moral imperative. You can't go in and free tens of millions of people to live their lives as ordinary people want to live their lives then all of a sudden bail and return them to hell because of some kind of time limit. It's just not right.

Your point about Korea might be okay, but I don't know how you can say this is some kind of political move. Let's be real, most people had forgotten we were in Afghanistan until the withdrawal was announced. It's not in the news and no politicians hardly talk about it anymore. Biden is fvcking up and he can't put it on Trump.

I'm not a fan of nation building but this pullout is a mess and could've been more well planned. And I can understand why the Taliban at least has fearful popular support because people probably know we will fold up tents at a moment's notice and leave people out to dry and at the mercy of the Taliban.

OK, John, let me get this straight. Are you arguing, based on your “moral imperative” trope, that we should still be in Vietnam? If we get out of SoKor or NATO, does that offend your “libertarian” sensibilities? If the Russians roll into Estonia tomorrow, should we invoke NATO Article 5 and rally our allies, most of whom aren’t meeting the 2% financial minimum? I suppose the only way out of your moral dilemma is to use nukes, early and often.

Ivytalk wrote:Somebody screwed up royally on the intel about the Taliban offensive possibilities.

You mean - somebody didn’t listen to what they were being told

Or, somebody was told to keep their fucking mouth shut

Or, somebody was ignored

I can’t wait for the postmortem on all this but I’ll likely be dead by then


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Ivytalk wrote:Well put, John. Biden set the table for the Taliban by announcing the August 31 withdrawal deadline months in advance. And the drawdown of troops and withdrawal of personnel should have been coordinated better, with a view to getting the Afghan translators/ interpreters and their families out safely. Somebody screwed up royally on the intel about the Taliban offensive possibilities. No good outcomes here, to our shame, even if you argue that we shouldn’t have been there to begin with. In the meantime, old man Biden vacations in Rehoboth.

Nailed it. Vulnerable civilians and their families should’ve been removed. How was that so royally screwed up???

Biden fucked up. Unforgivable.


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Ibanez wrote:

Ivytalk wrote:Well put, John. Biden set the table for the Taliban by announcing the August 31 withdrawal deadline months in advance. And the drawdown of troops and withdrawal of personnel should have been coordinated better, with a view to getting the Afghan translators/ interpreters and their families out safely. Somebody screwed up royally on the intel about the Taliban offensive possibilities. No good outcomes here, to our shame, even if you argue that we shouldn’t have been there to begin with. In the meantime, old man Biden vacations in Rehoboth.

Nailed it. Vulnerable civilians and their families should’ve been removed. How was that so royally screwed up???

Biden fucked up. Unforgivable.


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I may have to just drop CS for a few weeks with the shit I could say

But in a nutshell, your incredulity is justified x20

We have no rudder


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CID1990 wrote:

Ibanez wrote: Nailed it. Vulnerable civilians and their families should’ve been removed. How was that so royally screwed up???

Biden fucked up. Unforgivable.


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I may have to just drop CS for a few weeks with the shit I could say

But in a nutshell, your incredulity is justified x20

We have no rudder


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I give it until the first commercial break tomorrow before people call for Biden’s resignation


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Ibanez wrote:

CID1990 wrote: I may have to just drop CS for a few weeks with the shit I could say

But in a nutshell, your incredulity is justified x20

We have no rudder


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I give it until the first commercial break tomorrow before people call for Biden’s resignation


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It started this evening. But it will go nowhere as Biden is just at the top. There is incompetence at all levels and has been for ages.

Ibanez wrote:

CID1990 wrote: I may have to just drop CS for a few weeks with the shit I could say

But in a nutshell, your incredulity is justified x20

We have no rudder


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I give it until the first commercial break tomorrow before people call for Biden’s resignation


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Why should he resign? he isnt in charge

He isnt even in charge of his fucking bladder


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And this marks the first time I have ever agreed with JSO. Wish it was under different circumstances.

JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:03 pm

Ivytalk wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:52 pm Well put, John. Biden set the table for the Taliban by announcing the August 31 withdrawal deadline months in advance. And the drawdown of troops and withdrawal of personnel should have been coordinated better, with a view to getting the Afghan translators/ interpreters and their families out safely. Somebody screwed up royally on the intel about the Taliban offensive possibilities. No good outcomes here, to our shame, even if you argue that we shouldn’t have been there to begin with. In the meantime, old man Biden vacations in Rehoboth.

I go beyond specific politicians like Biden and Trump to a deeper problem associated with the People of the United States. It's this thing where we think there has to be some definite end point. When we are talking about Islamists, we are talking about people who don't think like that. They don't care if it takes 10,000 years.

Of course it started before the Islamists with Vietnam. It was a war in which we never lost a significant battle yet quit because the enemy maintained a pulse. To me, if we get into something, we should get into it with an "as long as it takes" attitude. There shouldn't be this attitude that it has to end within a short time frame by historical standards or we are going to quit.

If we don't want to get into something, fine. But this crap of getting into something then quitting even though we are kicking the hell out of the enemy in every engagement because the enemy hasn't totally gone away really needs to stop.

And if we are in a situation like this one was there is also a moral imperative. You can't go in and free tens of millions of people to live their lives as ordinary people want to live their lives then all of a sudden bail and return them to hell because of some kind of time limit. It's just not right.

Your mindset (as long as it takes) is in the vast, vast majority in today’s America. We don’t have the stomach for it, and the past few wars/military actions have shown our enemies exactly that. They merely need to outwait our patience. We don’t play to win. We don’t unleash hell. We play patty cake for 15-20 years, then bail. This war became almost a virtual carbon copy of Viet Nam, right down to the photo of the helicopter evacuation from the roof of the embassy.

This is why Congress declares wars instead of “Authorization of the Use Of Military Force”

This is why we sign Senate-ratified treaties instead of inking “deals”

So many debacles over the last 30 years that can be traced to the legislative branch abrogating so much power to the executive


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CID1990 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:41 pm This is why Congress declares wars instead of “Authorization of the Use Of Military Force”

This is why we sign Senate-ratified treaties instead of inking “deals”

So many debacles over the last 30 years that can be traced to the legislative branch abrogating so much power to the executive


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AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:36 pm

JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:03 pm

I go beyond specific politicians like Biden and Trump to a deeper problem associated with the People of the United States. It's this thing where we think there has to be some definite end point. When we are talking about Islamists, we are talking about people who don't think like that. They don't care if it takes 10,000 years.

Of course it started before the Islamists with Vietnam. It was a war in which we never lost a significant battle yet quit because the enemy maintained a pulse. To me, if we get into something, we should get into it with an "as long as it takes" attitude. There shouldn't be this attitude that it has to end within a short time frame by historical standards or we are going to quit.

If we don't want to get into something, fine. But this crap of getting into something then quitting even though we are kicking the hell out of the enemy in every engagement because the enemy hasn't totally gone away really needs to stop.

And if we are in a situation like this one was there is also a moral imperative. You can't go in and free tens of millions of people to live their lives as ordinary people want to live their lives then all of a sudden bail and return them to hell because of some kind of time limit. It's just not right.

Your mindset (as long as it takes) is in the vast, vast majority in today’s America. We don’t have the stomach for it, and the past few wars/military actions have shown our enemies exactly that. They merely need to outwait our patience. We don’t play to win. We don’t unleash hell. We play patty cake for 15-20 years, then bail. This war became almost a virtual carbon copy of Viet Nam, right down to the photo of the helicopter evacuation from the roof of the embassy.

We should have bailed right after taking out Osama. And we should have gotten around to taking him out long before we did.

houndawg wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 8:09 pm

AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:36 pm

Your mindset (as long as it takes) is in the vast, vast majority in today’s America. We don’t have the stomach for it, and the past few wars/military actions have shown our enemies exactly that. They merely need to outwait our patience. We don’t play to win. We don’t unleash hell. We play patty cake for 15-20 years, then bail. This war became almost a virtual carbon copy of Viet Nam, right down to the photo of the helicopter evacuation from the roof of the embassy.

We should have bailed right after taking out Osama. And we should have gotten around to taking him out long before we did.

Agreed.

houndawg wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 8:09 pm

AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:36 pm

Your mindset (as long as it takes) is in the vast, vast majority in today’s America. We don’t have the stomach for it, and the past few wars/military actions have shown our enemies exactly that. They merely need to outwait our patience. We don’t play to win. We don’t unleash hell. We play patty cake for 15-20 years, then bail. This war became almost a virtual carbon copy of Viet Nam, right down to the photo of the helicopter evacuation from the roof of the embassy.

We should have bailed right after taking out Osama. And we should have gotten around to taking him out long before we did.

This. Killing OBL was the perfect time to bounce. Instead we hung around for no good reason.

And at Biden fucking this up.

All these people are fucked.

Good job Biden. It was just about a month ago that him and his admin told us this wouldn't happen. Whoops.

JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:17 pm I'm sure there must be comments about what's going on with Afghanistan already. But I don't see an obvious thread. Maybe there is one and I just don't see it.

Anyway, this his disgraceful. I voted for Biden and I would do so again given the options. Also Trump is the one who originally made the agreement to do what we are basically doing. But this is awful.

To some extent I hesitate to say things like this because I have never been in the military and none of my children are now. So I don't have to suffer anything to keep troops anywhere. But, at the same time, I think this thing where people in the United States have to see an end point for military action really hurts this country. We have enemies that think in terms of millennia. And we think that there has to be some kind of time limit. It means our enemies know they can get their ass kicked repeatedly in terms of battles but if they can JUST maintain a pulse they will eventually outlast us.

Beyond that, in this case, we are throwing 10s of millions of people to the wolves. We may not like the fact our military presence was the only thing that stood between 10s of millions of people and complete horror. But it's the reality. Doing what we've done by abandoning them is immoral. It's wrong.

Then there's the fact that we do have commitments that apparently have no timelines in other places. The Korean war armistice went into effect 68 years ago. We still have 28,000 troops stationed in South Korea. What makes the South Korean people more important than the people of Afghanistan? There was a time when we were in a global contest with the Soviet Union and that added something. But that time is long past.

Why is it that we can stay in South Korea for 68 years with not even a hint of putting a time limit on it then say that 20 years is too long in Afghanistan so it's OK to send 10s of millions of people to hell?

Whataboutism isn't going to work here. Biden and his 'team' changed course with what Trump was doing at the southern border (another disaster), and could have easily done so here too.
He owns every bit of this...lock stock and barrel.

Baldy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:07 pm

JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:17 pm I'm sure there must be comments about what's going on with Afghanistan already. But I don't see an obvious thread. Maybe there is one and I just don't see it.

Anyway, this his disgraceful. I voted for Biden and I would do so again given the options. Also Trump is the one who originally made the agreement to do what we are basically doing. But this is awful.

To some extent I hesitate to say things like this because I have never been in the military and none of my children are now. So I don't have to suffer anything to keep troops anywhere. But, at the same time, I think this thing where people in the United States have to see an end point for military action really hurts this country. We have enemies that think in terms of millennia. And we think that there has to be some kind of time limit. It means our enemies know they can get their ass kicked repeatedly in terms of battles but if they can JUST maintain a pulse they will eventually outlast us.

Beyond that, in this case, we are throwing 10s of millions of people to the wolves. We may not like the fact our military presence was the only thing that stood between 10s of millions of people and complete horror. But it's the reality. Doing what we've done by abandoning them is immoral. It's wrong.

Then there's the fact that we do have commitments that apparently have no timelines in other places. The Korean war armistice went into effect 68 years ago. We still have 28,000 troops stationed in South Korea. What makes the South Korean people more important than the people of Afghanistan? There was a time when we were in a global contest with the Soviet Union and that added something. But that time is long past.

Why is it that we can stay in South Korea for 68 years with not even a hint of putting a time limit on it then say that 20 years is too long in Afghanistan so it's OK to send 10s of millions of people to hell?

Whataboutism isn't going to work here. Biden and his 'team' changed course with what Trump was doing at the southern border (another disaster), and could have easily done so here too.
He owns every bit of this...lock stock and barrel.

I'm old enough to remember somebody somewhere saying that the adults were back in charge and that our allies will respect us again.

Baldy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:52 pm I'm old enough to remember somebody somewhere saying that the adults were back in charge and that our allies will respect us again.

I absolutely love how this is all falling apart under Biden. Couldn't happen to a better group of fucks. I mean we're barely 8 months into his 1st term.

Put this on the woke thread but may as well put it here too.
suspicious: