Fixing America

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Re: Fixing America

Post by kalm »

CID1990 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:37 am
kalm wrote:
Oooh, ooooh! I got this! Jim Webb! No wait…Joe Manchin!

:lol:
I see

So Fascist Joe Manchin and you agree with each other that government is not the cure for our ills? While you disagree on the biggest most expansive government bill ever?


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Yes. There’s political theory, there’s political theater and then there’s reality.

Libertarianism, anarchism, socialism are all potentially workable…….in small groups of 30 or so humans.

I’ll steal your go-to and suggest that in a nation 330 million mostly cunts, you need government (and quite a large one especially if your going to project global power).

Government never “cures” ills but it can create a cushion against feudalism for the lazy and gullible unwashed masses. :mrgreen:
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Re: Fixing America

Post by Ibanez »

BDKJMU wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:31 pm
houndawg wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:56 pm

Otherwise known as "the majority of the GOP". :coffee:
-Biden oldest POTUS EVER- Donk
-Oldest Senator-Donk: 88 yr old Feinstein
-Oldest member of SCOTUS- Donk- 83 yr old Breyer.
-Last member of SCOTUS to die- Donk: Ginsburg at 87.

10 Oldest current House of Reps (8 of 10 donks):
1.Don Young, 88 (Conk)
2.Eddie Bernice Johnson, 86 (Donk)
3.Alcee Hastings, 85 (Donk)
4.Grace Napolitano, 85 (Donk)
5. Bill Pascrell, 85 (Donk)
6.Hal Rogers, 84 (Conk)
7.Maxin Waters, 83 (Donk)
8.Steny Hoyer, 82 (Donk)
9.Nancy Pelosi, 81 (Donk)
10.Jim Clyburn, 81 (Donk)
https://www.oldest.org/politics/members-us-house/
Thanks for playing.

Edit: Ginsburg was 87 when she croaked, not 86.
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Re: Fixing America

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:48 am
CID1990 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:37 am
I see

So Fascist Joe Manchin and you agree with each other that government is not the cure for our ills? While you disagree on the biggest most expansive government bill ever?


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Government never “cures” ills but it can create a cushion against feudalism for the lazy and gullible unwashed masses. :mrgreen:
Yes. It's worked so well in Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, Viet Nam, etc., etc., etc. That benevolent government, looking out for the little guy. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Re: Fixing America

Post by CID1990 »

kalm wrote:
CID1990 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:37 am I see

So Fascist Joe Manchin and you agree with each other that government is not the cure for our ills? While you disagree on the biggest most expansive government bill ever?


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Yes. There’s political theory, there’s political theater and then there’s reality.

Libertarianism, anarchism, socialism are all potentially workable…….in small groups of 30 or so humans.

I’ll steal your go-to and suggest that in a nation 330 million mostly cunts, you need government (and quite a large one especially if your going to project global power).

Government never “cures” ills but it can create a cushion against feudalism for the lazy and gullible unwashed masses. :mrgreen:
That’s quite a migration away from how surprised I would be to know how so many on the political left do not see government as a cure.


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Re: Fixing America

Post by AZGrizFan »

CID1990 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:29 am
kalm wrote:
Yes. There’s political theory, there’s political theater and then there’s reality.

Libertarianism, anarchism, socialism are all potentially workable…….in small groups of 30 or so humans.

I’ll steal your go-to and suggest that in a nation 330 million mostly cunts, you need government (and quite a large one especially if your going to project global power).

Government never “cures” ills but it can create a cushion against feudalism for the lazy and gullible unwashed masses. :mrgreen:
That’s quite a migration away from how surprised I would be to know how so many on the political left do not see government as a cure.


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:lol: :lol: :lol: the mental gymnastics he goes through are truly amazing to watch....
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Re: Fixing America

Post by houndawg »

CID1990 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:46 pm
houndawg wrote:
I think his point was that the Democrat establishment isn't the same thing. Which seems obvious even here.
You want to jump in on this goat rope too?

Why don’t you name me a non-establishment Democrat who believes that government is not the cure for our ills?

Better yet, why not just name me a non-establishment Dem congresscritter? I’d like to know who these jackalopes are


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I don't disagree that "the left" sees gubmint as the path to every solution, thats what they do; I agree with the klamster that the establishment part of
the Democratic Party and "the left" aren't the same thing.
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Re: Fixing America

Post by houndawg »

AZGrizFan wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:31 am
kalm wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:48 am

Government never “cures” ills but it can create a cushion against feudalism for the lazy and gullible unwashed masses. :mrgreen:
Yes. It's worked so well in Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, Viet Nam, etc., etc., etc. That benevolent government, looking out for the little guy. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:ohno:

Government doesn't look out for the little guy, Z, people look out for the little guy. Government is just a tool, likje a shovel, or a gun. :coffee:
The best way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of opinion but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - Noam Chomsky
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Re: Fixing America

Post by AZGrizFan »

houndawg wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:31 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:31 am

Yes. It's worked so well in Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, Viet Nam, etc., etc., etc. That benevolent government, looking out for the little guy. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:ohno:

Government doesn't look out for the little guy, Z, people look out for the little guy. Government is just a tool, likje a shovel, or a gun. :coffee:
Yes, I’m aware of that. Completely. Thus my mocking of Klammy’ s insistence that gov’t was going to prevent feudalism for the lazy and gullible….
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Re: Fixing America

Post by UNI88 »

houndawg wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:29 pm
CID1990 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:46 pm
You want to jump in on this goat rope too?

Why don’t you name me a non-establishment Democrat who believes that government is not the cure for our ills?

Better yet, why not just name me a non-establishment Dem congresscritter? I’d like to know who these jackalopes are
I don't disagree that "the left" sees gubmint as the path to every solution, thats what they do; I agree with the klamster that the establishment part of
the Democratic Party and "the left" aren't the same thing.
Where is the line between the establishment part of the Democratic Party and "the left"?

Can you give some examples of prominent officials who are establishment and others who are "the left"?

What if an "establishment" elected official pushes a "leftist" agenda?
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
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Re: Fixing America

Post by houndawg »

AZGrizFan wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:09 pm
houndawg wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:31 pm

:ohno:

Government doesn't look out for the little guy, Z, people look out for the little guy. Government is just a tool, likje a shovel, or a gun. :coffee:
Yes, I’m aware of that. Completely. Thus my mocking of Klammy’ s insistence that gov’t was going to prevent feudalism for the lazy and gullible….
Most of the rest of the developed first world does a reasonable job of looking after the little guy compared to us. National healthcare, enough parental leave to make a difference, superior educational system, longer life expectancy, lower infant mortality.... :coffee:
The best way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of opinion but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - Noam Chomsky
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Re: Fixing America

Post by houndawg »

UNI88 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:16 pm
houndawg wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:29 pm

I don't disagree that "the left" sees gubmint as the path to every solution, thats what they do; I agree with the klamster that the establishment part of
the Democratic Party and "the left" aren't the same thing.
Where is the line between the establishment part of the Democratic Party and "the left"?

Can you give some examples of prominent officials who are establishment and others who are "the left"?

What if an "establishment" elected official pushes a "leftist" agenda?
I guess the blindingly obvious one on the Democrat side would be the Squad as opposed to Manchin and Sinema. Different on the Republican side as they are now a cult of personality on the establishment side, with theiropposition coming from outsiders like the Lincoln Project.
The best way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of opinion but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - Noam Chomsky
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Re: Fixing America

Post by kalm »

CID1990 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:29 am
kalm wrote:
Yes. There’s political theory, there’s political theater and then there’s reality.

Libertarianism, anarchism, socialism are all potentially workable…….in small groups of 30 or so humans.

I’ll steal your go-to and suggest that in a nation 330 million mostly cunts, you need government (and quite a large one especially if your going to project global power).

Government never “cures” ills but it can create a cushion against feudalism for the lazy and gullible unwashed masses. :mrgreen:
That’s quite a migration away from how surprised I would be to know how so many on the political left do not see government as a cure.


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The political left is a big tent. :mrgreen:

I see the confusion now. It was my use of the phrase “political” left.

I can understand your assumption that I was referring to elected officials.

My bad.

There are many on the left who do not see government as a cure. At least not in its current form here. They dislike Hillary and Biden as much as you do. Except they don’t consider them a part of the left. Similar to how you might not view GWB as a conservative.

Still friends?

:)
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Re: Fixing America

Post by UNI88 »

houndawg wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:22 pm
UNI88 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:16 pm
Where is the line between the establishment part of the Democratic Party and "the left"?

Can you give some examples of prominent officials who are establishment and others who are "the left"?

What if an "establishment" elected official pushes a "leftist" agenda?
I guess the blindingly obvious one on the Democrat side would be the Squad as opposed to Manchin and Sinema. Different on the Republican side as they are now a cult of personality on the establishment side, with their opposition coming from outsiders like the Lincoln Project.
The you're either with us or against us cult exists on both sides when it comes to who is an outsider. Dems treat Manchin and Sinema similarly to how Reps treat Liz Cheney and other never-Trumpers.

The Squat's followers are just as much a cult as Trump's. I am curious how their followers will react as they are co-opted by power and money.

Are Pelosi, Schumer, etc. establishment Dem or "left"?
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
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Re: Fixing America

Post by houndawg »

UNI88 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:44 pm
houndawg wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:22 pm

I guess the blindingly obvious one on the Democrat side would be the Squad as opposed to Manchin and Sinema. Different on the Republican side as they are now a cult of personality on the establishment side, with their opposition coming from outsiders like the Lincoln Project.
The you're either with us or against us cult exists on both sides when it comes to who is an outsider. Dems treat Manchin and Sinema similarly to how Reps treat Liz Cheney and other never-Trumpers.

The Squat's followers are just as much a cult as Trump's. I am curious how their followers will react as they are co-opted by power and money.

Are Pelosi, Schumer, etc. establishment Dem or "left"?
They're the establishment but they aren't so greedy that they don't realize that letting some crumbs fall off the table is the smartest path for the establishment to follow. Republicans are a different breed - to them winning isn't enough, its just as important that the "others" lose as it is that they win.
The best way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of opinion but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - Noam Chomsky
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Re: Fixing America

Post by UNI88 »

houndawg wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:56 pm
UNI88 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:44 pm
The you're either with us or against us cult exists on both sides when it comes to who is an outsider. Dems treat Manchin and Sinema similarly to how Reps treat Liz Cheney and other never-Trumpers.

The Squat's followers are just as much a cult as Trump's. I am curious how their followers will react as they are co-opted by power and money.

Are Pelosi, Schumer, etc. establishment Dem or "left"?
They're the establishment but they aren't so greedy that they don't realize that letting some crumbs fall off the table is the smartest path for the establishment to follow. Republicans are a different breed - to them winning isn't enough, its just as important that the "others" lose as it is that they win.
Pelosi, Schumer, etc. sure carried the water for the Left on BBB which even watered down was a leftists wet dream. If they're establishment Dems then the Left has taken over the establishment and Manchin and Sinema are holdouts.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
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Re: Fixing America

Post by AZGrizFan »

houndawg wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:56 pm
UNI88 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:44 pm

The you're either with us or against us cult exists on both sides when it comes to who is an outsider. Dems treat Manchin and Sinema similarly to how Reps treat Liz Cheney and other never-Trumpers.

The Squat's followers are just as much a cult as Trump's. I am curious how their followers will react as they are co-opted by power and money.

Are Pelosi, Schumer, etc. establishment Dem or "left"?
They're the establishment but they aren't so greedy that they don't realize that letting some crumbs fall off the table is the smartest path for the establishment to follow. Republicans are a different breed - to them winning isn't enough, its just as important that the "others" lose as it is that they win.
Good Christ. You literally just described the entire Dem party. It’s not enough to win elections, for example, you have to convince America that the other party is the fucking antichrist, the devil, nazis, etc., etc.
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Re: Fixing America

Post by houndawg »

UNI88 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:03 pm
houndawg wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:56 pm

They're the establishment but they aren't so greedy that they don't realize that letting some crumbs fall off the table is the smartest path for the establishment to follow. Republicans are a different breed - to them winning isn't enough, its just as important that the "others" lose as it is that they win.
Pelosi, Schumer, etc. sure carried the water for the Left on BBB which even watered down was a leftists wet dream. If they're establishment Dems then the Left has taken over the establishment and Manchin and Sinema are holdouts.
Modernizing our infrastructure is the wet dream of vast numbers of American throughout the spectrum. :coffee:

Why do you hate America? :?
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Re: Fixing America

Post by UNI88 »

houndawg wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:34 pm
UNI88 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:03 pm
Pelosi, Schumer, etc. sure carried the water for the Left on BBB which even watered down was a leftists wet dream. If they're establishment Dems then the Left has taken over the establishment and Manchin and Sinema are holdouts.
Modernizing our infrastructure is the wet dream of vast numbers of American throughout the spectrum. :coffee:

Why do you hate America? :?
BBB was an infrastructure bill like Trump was a leader and stateman.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
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Re: Fixing America

Post by houndawg »

UNI88 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:47 pm
houndawg wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:34 pm

Modernizing our infrastructure is the wet dream of vast numbers of American throughout the spectrum. :coffee:

Why do you hate America? :?
BBB was an infrastructure bill like Trump was a leader and stateman.
The Russians and the NRA think he was a great leader and statesman
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Re: Fixing America

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:47 pm
houndawg wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:34 pm

Modernizing our infrastructure is the wet dream of vast numbers of American throughout the spectrum. :coffee:

Why do you hate America? :?
BBB was an infrastructure bill like Trump was a leader and stateman.
Yeah…we can put money into bridges, roads, and ports but people? No way! They have to earn it!
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Re: Fixing America

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:03 pm
houndawg wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:56 pm

They're the establishment but they aren't so greedy that they don't realize that letting some crumbs fall off the table is the smartest path for the establishment to follow. Republicans are a different breed - to them winning isn't enough, its just as important that the "others" lose as it is that they win.
Pelosi, Schumer, etc. sure carried the water for the Left on BBB which even watered down was a leftists wet dream. If they're establishment Dems then the Left has taken over the establishment and Manchin and Sinema are holdouts.
Did BBB pass already?

Hurray!
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Re: Fixing America

Post by CID1990 »

houndawg wrote:
CID1990 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:46 pm You want to jump in on this goat rope too?

Why don’t you name me a non-establishment Democrat who believes that government is not the cure for our ills?

Better yet, why not just name me a non-establishment Dem congresscritter? I’d like to know who these jackalopes are


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I don't disagree that "the left" sees gubmint as the path to every solution, thats what they do; I agree with the klamster that the establishment part of
the Democratic Party and "the left" aren't the same thing.
Its easy to agree with klam’s routine subject changes… that’s one reason he uses them


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Re: Fixing America

Post by CID1990 »

kalm wrote:
CID1990 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:29 am That’s quite a migration away from how surprised I would be to know how so many on the political left do not see government as a cure.


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The political left is a big tent. :mrgreen:

I see the confusion now. It was my use of the phrase “political” left.

I can understand your assumption that I was referring to elected officials.

My bad.

There are many on the left who do not see government as a cure. At least not in its current form here. They dislike Hillary and Biden as much as you do. Except they don’t consider them a part of the left. Similar to how you might not view GWB as a conservative.

Still friends?

:)
Complete BS, klam.

At the national level, the political left is monolithically behind the DNC platform

Maybe out in Peoria at the local level there are lefties who prefer for the police to handle emergency calls only, or for less parking regulation.

But there is zero evidence that there is some grassroots lefty libertarian movement out there - and your assertion is purely anecdotal

But you are correct - I would be VERY surprised. Along the lines of seeing a unicorn


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Re: Fixing America

Post by kalm »

CID1990 wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:46 am
kalm wrote:
The political left is a big tent. :mrgreen:

I see the confusion now. It was my use of the phrase “political” left.

I can understand your assumption that I was referring to elected officials.

My bad.

There are many on the left who do not see government as a cure. At least not in its current form here. They dislike Hillary and Biden as much as you do. Except they don’t consider them a part of the left. Similar to how you might not view GWB as a conservative.

Still friends?

:)
Complete BS, klam.

At the national level, the political left is monolithically behind the DNC platform

Maybe out in Peoria at the local level there are lefties who prefer for the police to handle emergency calls only, or for less parking regulation.

But there is zero evidence that there is some grassroots lefty libertarian movement out there - and your assertion is purely anecdotal.


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Don’t disagree. Why do you think I tail against Pelosi AND Manchin and suggest the DNC is center right? But these aren’t new concepts either.

“Philosophically, Communism and Anarchism are poles apart. Practically—i.e. in the form of society aimed at—the difference is mainly one of emphasis, but it is quite irreconcilable. The Communist’s emphasis is always on centralism and efficiency, the Anarchist’s on liberty and equality.”

George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia
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Re: Fixing America

Post by CID1990 »

kalm wrote:
CID1990 wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:46 am Complete BS, klam.

At the national level, the political left is monolithically behind the DNC platform

Maybe out in Peoria at the local level there are lefties who prefer for the police to handle emergency calls only, or for less parking regulation.

But there is zero evidence that there is some grassroots lefty libertarian movement out there - and your assertion is purely anecdotal.


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Don’t disagree. Why do you think I tail against Pelosi AND Manchin and suggest the DNC is center right? But these aren’t new concepts either.

“Philosophically, Communism and Anarchism are poles apart. Practically—i.e. in the form of society aimed at—the difference is mainly one of emphasis, but it is quite irreconcilable. The Communist’s emphasis is always on centralism and efficiency, the Anarchist’s on liberty and equality.”

George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia
There is all kinds of room on the scale for Pelosi and Fascisty Manchin to be well to the right of you and still be liberal, klam


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