January 6 - How much do you care?

[UNI88]

What is UKR? And if that’s Ukraine, Biden and his crackhead son are at the top of THAT prosecution list.

As I’ve said before, prosecute the Biden’s too. You should also refresh your memory on who Paul Manafort is and how much time Rudy spent in UKR as well as the weapons deal Trump was pushing.

They’re all sleazy. No one gets out alive.

Still not the same as 1/6. Not even close.

No, it's not the same as 1/6. But it (and the subsequent impeachment) was an attempt to subvert an election and rational Americans should be seriously troubled by both.

A bigger problem then 1/6, the AnTiFa riots, the 2016 subversion attempts, etc. is that Americans are willing to rationalize the sins of "their side" while trying to focus all the attention on the sins of "the other side". The level of sin that people are willing to rationalize for partisan reasons is out of hand.

[kalm]

As I’ve said before, prosecute the Biden’s too. You should also refresh your memory on who Paul Manafort is and how much time Rudy spent in UKR as well as the weapons deal Trump was pushing.

They’re all sleazy. No one gets out alive.

Still not the same as 1/6. Not even close.

No, it's not the same as 1/6. But it (and the subsequent impeachment) was an attempt to subvert an election and rational Americans should be seriously troubled by both.

A bigger problem then 1/6, the AnTiFa riots, the 2016 subversion attempts, etc. is that Americans are willing to rationalize the sins of "their side" while trying to focus all the attention on the sins of "the other side". The level of sin that people are willing to rationalize for partisan reasons is out of hand.

But the level of whataboutism is equally out of hand.

[AZGrizFan]

No, it's not the same as 1/6. But it (and the subsequent impeachment) was an attempt to subvert an election and rational Americans should be seriously troubled by both.

A bigger problem then 1/6, the AnTiFa riots, the 2016 subversion attempts, etc. is that Americans are willing to rationalize the sins of "their side" while trying to focus all the attention on the sins of "the other side". The level of sin that people are willing to rationalize for partisan reasons is out of hand.

But the level of whataboutism is equally out of hand.

It’s not whataboutism. It’s pointing out the hypocrisy.

[GannonFan]

No, it's not the same as 1/6. But it (and the subsequent impeachment) was an attempt to subvert an election and rational Americans should be seriously troubled by both.

A bigger problem then 1/6, the AnTiFa riots, the 2016 subversion attempts, etc. is that Americans are willing to rationalize the sins of "their side" while trying to focus all the attention on the sins of "the other side". The level of sin that people are willing to rationalize for partisan reasons is out of hand.

But the level of whataboutism is equally out of hand.

I agree that the intentional hamstringing of an incoming administration by the outgoing administration (as Obama did with Trump and the planting of the now-known false narrative involving Russian tampering and collusion) were different than the Trump-instigated Jan 6th riots. But who cares? That's the pursuit of a nuance without any larger purpose in mind other than to be argumentative. They were both instances of outgoing administrations or political parties purposely turning their backs on the peaceful transfer of power and both had the intent to either hold on to power (subvert elections) or to at least make the next administration so hobbled they couldn't govern effectively. And both are pretty much huge departures from the way that we've conducted ourselves politically going back as far as the start of the country. You'd have to go back as far as Adam's Midnight Appointments of judges to find anything as close to petulant as what Obama and then Trump orchestrated, and at least back then most of those appointments were overturned. There's nothing wrong about whataboutism when it's accurate.

[AZGrizFan]

But the level of whataboutism is equally out of hand.

I agree that the intentional hamstringing of an incoming administration by the outgoing administration (as Obama did with Trump and the planting of the now-known false narrative involving Russian tampering and collusion) were different than the Trump-instigated Jan 6th riots. But who cares? That's the pursuit of a nuance without any larger purpose in mind other than to be argumentative. They were both instances of outgoing administrations or political parties purposely turning their backs on the peaceful transfer of power and both had the intent to either hold on to power (subvert elections) or to at least make the next administration so hobbled they couldn't govern effectively. And both are pretty much huge departures from the way that we've conducted ourselves politically going back as far as the start of the country. You'd have to go back as far as Adam's Midnight Appointments of judges to find anything as close to petulant as what Obama and then Trump orchestrated, and at least back then most of those appointments were overturned. There's nothing wrong about whataboutism when it's accurate.

Serious question: If 1/6 hadn’t happened, and 1/20 had been smooth, serene and peaceful, do you think Biden would have been any more effective with his policies than he has been over the past 15 months? Personally, Biden’s (and his administration’s) problem isn’t how the transfer of power went (in fact, it’s given them red meat for their true believers), it’s his POLICIES and his fried brain that are the major issues with how his administration has performed. Exhibit A being the refusal to condemn the protestors at SC private residences….they are basically allowing/following “mob” rule, and have been as a party for quite some time.

[GannonFan]

I agree that the intentional hamstringing of an incoming administration by the outgoing administration (as Obama did with Trump and the planting of the now-known false narrative involving Russian tampering and collusion) were different than the Trump-instigated Jan 6th riots. But who cares? That's the pursuit of a nuance without any larger purpose in mind other than to be argumentative. They were both instances of outgoing administrations or political parties purposely turning their backs on the peaceful transfer of power and both had the intent to either hold on to power (subvert elections) or to at least make the next administration so hobbled they couldn't govern effectively. And both are pretty much huge departures from the way that we've conducted ourselves politically going back as far as the start of the country. You'd have to go back as far as Adam's Midnight Appointments of judges to find anything as close to petulant as what Obama and then Trump orchestrated, and at least back then most of those appointments were overturned. There's nothing wrong about whataboutism when it's accurate.

Serious question: If 1/6 hadn’t happened, and 1/20 had been smooth, serene and peaceful, do you think Biden would have been any more effective with his policies than he has been over the past 15 months? Personally, Biden’s (and his administration’s) problem isn’t how the transfer of power went (in fact, it’s given them red meat for their true believers), it’s his POLICIES and his fried brain that are the major issues with how his administration has performed. Exhibit A being the refusal to condemn the protestors at SC private residences….they are basically allowing/following “mob” rule, and have been as a party for quite some time.

No, and I don't think I said that. 2016 and 2020 were different in that regard. The Obama administration publicly was graceful in their exit, but behind the scenes planted the Russian conspiracy story throughout government, meaning that it would be investigated ad infinitum during the subsequent administration (which is what we saw and was the basis for Jelly's epic faceplant thread that is still a monument today). The Trump administration was far more immediate in focus and had no intention of doing anything gracefully, and they packed all that in to the two months between the election and the inauguration. Biden's problems today have nothing to do with the attempts by Trump to not turn over power peacefully - Biden is irreversibly senile and his advisors are a train-wreck. None of that has anything to do with 1/6.

[kalm]

But the level of whataboutism is equally out of hand.

I agree that the intentional hamstringing of an incoming administration by the outgoing administration (as Obama did with Trump and the planting of the now-known false narrative involving Russian tampering and collusion) were different than the Trump-instigated Jan 6th riots. But who cares? That's the pursuit of a nuance without any larger purpose in mind other than to be argumentative. They were both instances of outgoing administrations or political parties purposely turning their backs on the peaceful transfer of power and both had the intent to either hold on to power (subvert elections) or to at least make the next administration so hobbled they couldn't govern effectively. And both are pretty much huge departures from the way that we've conducted ourselves politically going back as far as the start of the country. You'd have to go back as far as Adam's Midnight Appointments of judges to find anything as close to petulant as what Obama and then Trump orchestrated, and at least back then most of those appointments were overturned. There's nothing wrong about whataboutism when it's accurate.

Please provide more evidence of what Obama did. I don’t remember it being remotely as nefarious as 1/6.

[AZGrizFan]

I agree that the intentional hamstringing of an incoming administration by the outgoing administration (as Obama did with Trump and the planting of the now-known false narrative involving Russian tampering and collusion) were different than the Trump-instigated Jan 6th riots. But who cares? That's the pursuit of a nuance without any larger purpose in mind other than to be argumentative. They were both instances of outgoing administrations or political parties purposely turning their backs on the peaceful transfer of power and both had the intent to either hold on to power (subvert elections) or to at least make the next administration so hobbled they couldn't govern effectively. And both are pretty much huge departures from the way that we've conducted ourselves politically going back as far as the start of the country. You'd have to go back as far as Adam's Midnight Appointments of judges to find anything as close to petulant as what Obama and then Trump orchestrated, and at least back then most of those appointments were overturned. There's nothing wrong about whataboutism when it's accurate.

Please provide more evidence of what Obama did. I don’t remember it being remotely as nefarious as 1/6.

Good lord. You can’t possibly be serious here.

[GannonFan]

Please provide more evidence of what Obama did. I don’t remember it being remotely as nefarious as 1/6.

Good lord. You can’t possibly be serious here.

It's like he didn't pay attention to anything from the years 2016 to 2020. Tell me the last time any outgoing administration made it a point to ensure a large scale investigation (and not really an investigation, they publicly said they had all the information that was needed to prove guilt) on the legitimacy of the incoming administration. Take all the time you want.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/01/us/p ... cking.html

In the Obama administration’s last days, some White House officials scrambled to spread information about Russian efforts to undermine the presidential election — and about possible contacts between associates of President-elect Donald J. Trump and Russians — across the government. Former American officials say they had two aims: to ensure that such meddling isn’t duplicated in future American or European elections, and to leave a clear trail of intelligence for government investigators.

It also reflected the suspicion among many in the Obama White House that the Trump campaign might have colluded with Russia on election email hacks — a suspicion that American officials say has not been confirmed.

As Inauguration Day approached, Obama White House officials grew convinced that the intelligence was damning and that they needed to ensure that as many people as possible inside government could see it, even if people without security clearances could not. Some officials began asking specific questions at intelligence briefings, knowing the answers would be archived and could be easily unearthed by investigators — including the Senate Intelligence Committee, which in early January announced an inquiry into Russian efforts to influence the election.

At intelligence agencies, there was a push to process as much raw intelligence as possible into analyses, and to keep the reports at a relatively low classification level to ensure as wide a readership as possible across the government — and, in some cases, among European allies. This allowed the upload of as much intelligence as possible to Intellipedia, a secret wiki used by American analysts to share information.

There was also an effort to pass reports and other sensitive materials to Congress. In one instance, the State Department sent a cache of documents marked “secret” to Senator Benjamin Cardin of Maryland days before the Jan. 20 inauguration.

[SeattleGriz]

I agree that the intentional hamstringing of an incoming administration by the outgoing administration (as Obama did with Trump and the planting of the now-known false narrative involving Russian tampering and collusion) were different than the Trump-instigated Jan 6th riots. But who cares? That's the pursuit of a nuance without any larger purpose in mind other than to be argumentative. They were both instances of outgoing administrations or political parties purposely turning their backs on the peaceful transfer of power and both had the intent to either hold on to power (subvert elections) or to at least make the next administration so hobbled they couldn't govern effectively. And both are pretty much huge departures from the way that we've conducted ourselves politically going back as far as the start of the country. You'd have to go back as far as Adam's Midnight Appointments of judges to find anything as close to petulant as what Obama and then Trump orchestrated, and at least back then most of those appointments were overturned. There's nothing wrong about whataboutism when it's accurate.

Please provide more evidence of what Obama did. I don’t remember it being remotely as nefarious as 1/6.

The basic issue. Using NSA surveillance tools illegally to collect information and then disseminate it out via friendly media sources. Obama administration got caught red handed on this topic. Why do you think they so easily went along with Russia collusion? Say there are spies involved and now your illegal usage of the NSA tools are now legal.

[AZGrizFan]

Klammy lives in this strange little Palouse bubble where:

* ANTIFA is more of an idea and concept than reality
* CRT doesn’t exist and isn’t being taught in public schools
* Obama’s involvement in the initiation and spearheading of the Russian collusion hoax didn’t happen
* Vaccines are safe and effective
* A baby is just a clump of cells
* Those rioting/protesting in front of SC justices private residences are just demonstrating their “passion”
* Those rioting/protesting and burning down DC in the name of BLM are just demonstrating their “passion”
* Those rioting/protesting in DC on 1/6 because of questionable election activity are insurrectionists who should be hanged

[UNI88]

Klammy lives in this strange little Palouse bubble where:

* ANTIFA is more of an idea and concept than reality
* CRT doesn’t exist and isn’t being taught in public schools
* Obama’s involvement in the initiation and spearheading of the Russian collusion hoax didn’t happen
* Vaccines are safe and effective
* A baby is just a clump of cells
* Those rioting/protesting in front of SC justices private residences are just demonstrating their “passion”
* Those rioting/protesting and burning down DC in the name of BLM are just demonstrating their “passion”
* Those rioting/protesting in DC on 1/6 because of questionable election activity are insurrectionists who should be hanged

kalm isn't really much different from BDK. He's bought into the left's narrative like BDK has the right's.

I don't think teaching CRT is widespread but it sets a dangerous precedent in telling students what to think rather than teaching them to think and I don't want it to spread.

[kalm]

Good lord. You can’t possibly be serious here.

It's like he didn't pay attention to anything from the years 2016 to 2020. Tell me the last time any outgoing administration made it a point to ensure a large scale investigation (and not really an investigation, they publicly said they had all the information that was needed to prove guilt) on the legitimacy of the incoming administration. Take all the time you want.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/01/us/p ... cking.html

In the Obama administration’s last days, some White House officials scrambled to spread information about Russian efforts to undermine the presidential election — and about possible contacts between associates of President-elect Donald J. Trump and Russians — across the government. Former American officials say they had two aims: to ensure that such meddling isn’t duplicated in future American or European elections, and to leave a clear trail of intelligence for government investigators.

It also reflected the suspicion among many in the Obama White House that the Trump campaign might have colluded with Russia on election email hacks — a suspicion that American officials say has not been confirmed.

As Inauguration Day approached, Obama White House officials grew convinced that the intelligence was damning and that they needed to ensure that as many people as possible inside government could see it, even if people without security clearances could not. Some officials began asking specific questions at intelligence briefings, knowing the answers would be archived and could be easily unearthed by investigators — including the Senate Intelligence Committee, which in early January announced an inquiry into Russian efforts to influence the election.

At intelligence agencies, there was a push to process as much raw intelligence as possible into analyses, and to keep the reports at a relatively low classification level to ensure as wide a readership as possible across the government — and, in some cases, among European allies. This allowed the upload of as much intelligence as possible to Intellipedia, a secret wiki used by American analysts to share information.

There was also an effort to pass reports and other sensitive materials to Congress. In one instance, the State Department sent a cache of documents marked “secret” to Senator Benjamin Cardin of Maryland days before the Jan. 20 inauguration.

So like I said, not as nefarious as 1/6. It’s a way different circumstance for one and it also at least involved a formal process through impeachment.

Btw, lack of a conviction doesn’t prove innocence. Just thought you should know.

Read up on Steve Schmidt’s tweets. Russian interference and influence peddling didn’t begin under Trump. It goes back much further and has been a serious threat. But hey…at least the Russians liked golf.

[kalm]

Klammy lives in this strange little Palouse bubble where:

* ANTIFA is more of an idea and concept than reality
* CRT doesn’t exist and isn’t being taught in public schools
* Obama’s involvement in the initiation and spearheading of the Russian collusion hoax didn’t happen
* Vaccines are safe and effective
* A baby is just a clump of cells
* Those rioting/protesting in front of SC justices private residences are just demonstrating their “passion”
* Those rioting/protesting and burning down DC in the name of BLM are just demonstrating their “passion”
* Those rioting/protesting in DC on 1/6 because of questionable election activity are insurrectionists who should be hanged

Did you ever make it outside Moscow-Pullman. The Palouse is solidly right.

[kalm]

Klammy lives in this strange little Palouse bubble where:

* ANTIFA is more of an idea and concept than reality
* CRT doesn’t exist and isn’t being taught in public schools
* Obama’s involvement in the initiation and spearheading of the Russian collusion hoax didn’t happen
* Vaccines are safe and effective
* A baby is just a clump of cells
* Those rioting/protesting in front of SC justices private residences are just demonstrating their “passion”
* Those rioting/protesting and burning down DC in the name of BLM are just demonstrating their “passion”
* Those rioting/protesting in DC on 1/6 because of questionable election activity are insurrectionists who should be hanged

kalm isn't really much different from BDK. He's bought into the left's narrative like BDK has the right's.

I don't think teaching CRT is widespread but it sets a dangerous precedent in telling students what to think rather than teaching them to think and I don't want it to spread.

[AZGrizFan]

It's like he didn't pay attention to anything from the years 2016 to 2020. Tell me the last time any outgoing administration made it a point to ensure a large scale investigation (and not really an investigation, they publicly said they had all the information that was needed to prove guilt) on the legitimacy of the incoming administration. Take all the time you want.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/01/us/p ... cking.html

So like I said, not as nefarious as 1/6. It’s a way different circumstance for one and it also at least involved a formal process through impeachment.

Btw, lack of a conviction doesn’t prove innocence. Just thought you should know.

Read up on Steve Schmidt’s tweets. Russian interference and influence peddling didn’t under Trump. It goes back much further and has been a serious threat. But hey…at least the Russians liked golf.

The fact that you see an outgoing administration purposely and actively spreading known false disinformation in an attempt to discredit and hobble the incoming administration with investigations, lawsuits and impeachments as NOT AS NEFARIOUS as a couple of normal everyday folks going a bit off the rails for a couple hours during an emotional demonstration literally speaks volumes about where your mind is at.

Obama’s involvement in the purposeful hamstringing of his successor is LIGHT YEARS worse than 1/6. Makes 1/6 look like a schoolyard fight by the bike racks.

[AZGrizFan]

Klammy lives in this strange little Palouse bubble where:

* ANTIFA is more of an idea and concept than reality
* CRT doesn’t exist and isn’t being taught in public schools
* Obama’s involvement in the initiation and spearheading of the Russian collusion hoax didn’t happen
* Vaccines are safe and effective
* A baby is just a clump of cells
* Those rioting/protesting in front of SC justices private residences are just demonstrating their “passion”
* Those rioting/protesting and burning down DC in the name of BLM are just demonstrating their “passion”
* Those rioting/protesting in DC on 1/6 because of questionable election activity are insurrectionists who should be hanged

Did you ever make it outside Moscow-Pullman. The Palouse is solidly right.

Hence why I said a strange little Palouse bubble…

[GannonFan]

So like I said, not as nefarious as 1/6. It’s a way different circumstance for one and it also at least involved a formal process through impeachment.

Btw, lack of a conviction doesn’t prove innocence. Just thought you should know.

Read up on Steve Schmidt’s tweets. Russian interference and influence peddling didn’t under Trump. It goes back much further and has been a serious threat. But hey…at least the Russians liked golf.

The fact that you see an outgoing administration purposely and actively spreading known false disinformation in an attempt to discredit and hobble the incoming administration with investigations, lawsuits and impeachments as NOT AS NEFARIOUS as a couple of normal everyday folks going a bit off the rails for a couple hours during an emotional demonstration literally speaks volumes about where your mind is at.

Obama’s involvement in the purposeful hamstringing of his successor is LIGHT YEARS worse than 1/6. Makes 1/6 look like a schoolyard fight by the bike racks.

I at least agree with AZ as far as saying both 1/6 and what the Obama administration did to assist in discrediting the incoming Trump administration aren't inseparable. Both are/were pretty nefarious. We've literally never had an outgoing administration attempt to discredit and delegitimize the incoming administration, and certainly nothing as clear and obvious as what the Obama administration did. They basically said, here's all this information, we have no basis to know if any of it is true (and a good chunk of it wasn't), but if any of its true then we need to investigate and impeach and get rid of them "to save democracy" and all of that, because we really think they cheated. That's never happened before (other than Gore dragging on for a month before begrudgingly giving up, although that did lead to 8 years of Dem's claiming Bush's presidency was illegitimate, or maybe the 1876 Electoral Commission). But we've never had a straight up election where one side won, and the other side basically went scorched earth to hobble the incoming administration.

1/6 was bad. Teeing up investigations on a rival, incoming administration based on made up intelligence because you didn't like the other side is at least equally as bad.

[kalm]

The fact that you see an outgoing administration purposely and actively spreading known false disinformation in an attempt to discredit and hobble the incoming administration with investigations, lawsuits and impeachments as NOT AS NEFARIOUS as a couple of normal everyday folks going a bit off the rails for a couple hours during an emotional demonstration literally speaks volumes about where your mind is at.

Obama’s involvement in the purposeful hamstringing of his successor is LIGHT YEARS worse than 1/6. Makes 1/6 look like a schoolyard fight by the bike racks.

I at least agree with AZ as far as saying both 1/6 and what the Obama administration did to assist in discrediting the incoming Trump administration aren't inseparable. Both are/were pretty nefarious. We've literally never had an outgoing administration attempt to discredit and delegitimize the incoming administration, and certainly nothing as clear and obvious as what the Obama administration did. They basically said, here's all this information, we have no basis to know if any of it is true (and a good chunk of it wasn't), but if any of its true then we need to investigate and impeach and get rid of them "to save democracy" and all of that, because we really think they cheated. That's never happened before (other than Gore dragging on for a month before begrudgingly giving up, although that did lead to 8 years of Dem's claiming Bush's presidency was illegitimate, or maybe the 1876 Electoral Commission). But we've never had a straight up election where one side won, and the other side basically went scorched earth to hobble the incoming administration.

1/6 was bad. Teeing up investigations on a rival, incoming administration based on made up intelligence because you didn't like the other side is at least equally as bad.

Sounds like a criminal investigation that was likely under-prosecuted.

[GannonFan]

I at least agree with AZ as far as saying both 1/6 and what the Obama administration did to assist in discrediting the incoming Trump administration aren't inseparable. Both are/were pretty nefarious. We've literally never had an outgoing administration attempt to discredit and delegitimize the incoming administration, and certainly nothing as clear and obvious as what the Obama administration did. They basically said, here's all this information, we have no basis to know if any of it is true (and a good chunk of it wasn't), but if any of its true then we need to investigate and impeach and get rid of them "to save democracy" and all of that, because we really think they cheated. That's never happened before (other than Gore dragging on for a month before begrudgingly giving up, although that did lead to 8 years of Dem's claiming Bush's presidency was illegitimate, or maybe the 1876 Electoral Commission). But we've never had a straight up election where one side won, and the other side basically went scorched earth to hobble the incoming administration.

1/6 was bad. Teeing up investigations on a rival, incoming administration based on made up intelligence because you didn't like the other side is at least equally as bad.

Sounds like a criminal investigation that was likely under-prosecuted.

That's unclear. Explain please.

[AZGrizFan]

The fact that you see an outgoing administration purposely and actively spreading known false disinformation in an attempt to discredit and hobble the incoming administration with investigations, lawsuits and impeachments as NOT AS NEFARIOUS as a couple of normal everyday folks going a bit off the rails for a couple hours during an emotional demonstration literally speaks volumes about where your mind is at.

Obama’s involvement in the purposeful hamstringing of his successor is LIGHT YEARS worse than 1/6. Makes 1/6 look like a schoolyard fight by the bike racks.

I at least agree with AZ as far as saying both 1/6 and what the Obama administration did to assist in discrediting the incoming Trump administration aren't inseparable. Both are/were pretty nefarious. We've literally never had an outgoing administration attempt to discredit and delegitimize the incoming administration, and certainly nothing as clear and obvious as what the Obama administration did. They basically said, here's all this information, we have no basis to know if any of it is true (and a good chunk of it wasn't), but if any of its true then we need to investigate and impeach and get rid of them "to save democracy" and all of that, because we really think they cheated. That's never happened before (other than Gore dragging on for a month before begrudgingly giving up, although that did lead to 8 years of Dem's claiming Bush's presidency was illegitimate, or maybe the 1876 Electoral Commission). But we've never had a straight up election where one side won, and the other side basically went scorched earth to hobble the incoming administration.

1/6 was bad. Teeing up investigations on a rival, incoming administration based on made up intelligence because you didn't like the other side is at least equally as bad.

1/6 was only “equally as bad” if you buy into the narrative that there was a wide-scale, concerted, organized effort on the part of white, racist “insurrectionists” to take down the government on 1/6. There is literally ZERO evidence to that effect. A few crackpots, blending into an otherwise very peaceful crowd, took things a little too far.

Obama’s administration involvement in the entire Russian collusion hoax is 10x worse. Maybe 100x worse.

[GannonFan]

I at least agree with AZ as far as saying both 1/6 and what the Obama administration did to assist in discrediting the incoming Trump administration aren't inseparable. Both are/were pretty nefarious. We've literally never had an outgoing administration attempt to discredit and delegitimize the incoming administration, and certainly nothing as clear and obvious as what the Obama administration did. They basically said, here's all this information, we have no basis to know if any of it is true (and a good chunk of it wasn't), but if any of its true then we need to investigate and impeach and get rid of them "to save democracy" and all of that, because we really think they cheated. That's never happened before (other than Gore dragging on for a month before begrudgingly giving up, although that did lead to 8 years of Dem's claiming Bush's presidency was illegitimate, or maybe the 1876 Electoral Commission). But we've never had a straight up election where one side won, and the other side basically went scorched earth to hobble the incoming administration.

1/6 was bad. Teeing up investigations on a rival, incoming administration based on made up intelligence because you didn't like the other side is at least equally as bad.

1/6 was only “equally as bad” if you buy into the narrative that there was a wide-scale, concerted, organized effort on the part of white, racist “insurrectionists” to take down the government on 1/6. There is literally ZERO evidence to that effect. A few crackpots, blending into an otherwise very peaceful crowd, took things a little too far.

Obama’s administration involvement in the entire Russian collusion hoax is 10x worse. Maybe 100x worse.

Well, the crowd at the rally was peaceful. The crowd at the Capitol was not very peaceful at all. And if by "a few" you mean several hundred, then yes, it was just "a few".

Trump clearly wanted to void the election and retain power. That's pretty bad. Luckily he wasn't very skilled at that and he didn't have a lot of support to do that.

But I do agree, Obama's administration's actions, shockingly not even done all that discreetly, were probably worse. Even worse, you still have apologists like kalmy, knowing what we know now, brushing it off like it doesn't even merit discussion. The Washington Post had it wrong, democracy doesn't die in darkness, it dies when supposedly rational people let partisan fervor get in the way of reasonably assessing political actions.

[kalm]

1/6 was only “equally as bad” if you buy into the narrative that there was a wide-scale, concerted, organized effort on the part of white, racist “insurrectionists” to take down the government on 1/6. There is literally ZERO evidence to that effect. A few crackpots, blending into an otherwise very peaceful crowd, took things a little too far.

Obama’s administration involvement in the entire Russian collusion hoax is 10x worse. Maybe 100x worse.

Well, the crowd at the rally was peaceful. The crowd at the Capitol was not very peaceful at all. And if by "a few" you mean several hundred, then yes, it was just "a few".

Trump clearly wanted to void the election and retain power. That's pretty bad. Luckily he wasn't very skilled at that and he didn't have a lot of support to do that.

But I do agree, Obama's administration's actions, shockingly not even done all that discreetly, were probably worse. Even worse, you still have apologists like kalmy, knowing what we know now, brushing it off like it doesn't even merit discussion. The Washington Post had it wrong, democracy doesn't die in darkness, it dies when supposedly rational people let partisan fervor get in the way of reasonably assessing political actions.

The funny part is you thinking I’m apologizing for Obama. The true centrist doesn’t worry about picking sides. Whether they pick a side sometimes or not.

[AZGrizFan]

1/6 was only “equally as bad” if you buy into the narrative that there was a wide-scale, concerted, organized effort on the part of white, racist “insurrectionists” to take down the government on 1/6. There is literally ZERO evidence to that effect. A few crackpots, blending into an otherwise very peaceful crowd, took things a little too far.

Obama’s administration involvement in the entire Russian collusion hoax is 10x worse. Maybe 100x worse.

Well, the crowd at the rally was peaceful. The crowd at the Capitol was not very peaceful at all. And if by "a few" you mean several hundred, then yes, it was just "a few".

Trump clearly wanted to void the election and retain power. That's pretty bad. Luckily he wasn't very skilled at that and he didn't have a lot of support to do that.

But I do agree, Obama's administration's actions, shockingly not even done all that discreetly, were probably worse. Even worse, you still have apologists like kalmy, knowing what we know now, brushing it off like it doesn't even merit discussion. The Washington Post had it wrong, democracy doesn't die in darkness, it dies when supposedly rational people let partisan fervor get in the way of reasonably assessing political actions.

There weren’t several hundred. And only a few dozen actually got what could be considered “violent”. 99% of the crowd at the capitol was very, very peaceful. In fact, I’d go so far as to say it was a ‘mostly peaceful’ protest….(see what I did there)….so it should have fallen right in line with established protest guidelines as defined by the left.

[SeattleGriz]

Well, the crowd at the rally was peaceful. The crowd at the Capitol was not very peaceful at all. And if by "a few" you mean several hundred, then yes, it was just "a few".

Trump clearly wanted to void the election and retain power. That's pretty bad. Luckily he wasn't very skilled at that and he didn't have a lot of support to do that.

But I do agree, Obama's administration's actions, shockingly not even done all that discreetly, were probably worse. Even worse, you still have apologists like kalmy, knowing what we know now, brushing it off like it doesn't even merit discussion. The Washington Post had it wrong, democracy doesn't die in darkness, it dies when supposedly rational people let partisan fervor get in the way of reasonably assessing political actions.

There weren’t several hundred. And only a few dozen actually got what could be considered “violent”. 99% of the crowd at the capitol was very, very peaceful. In fact, I’d go so far as to say it was a ‘mostly peaceful’ protest….(see what I did there)….so it should have fallen right in line with established protest guidelines as defined by the left.

Why do you think the Jan 6 commission won't release the video surveillance of the "insurrection"? Because like you said 99% would be people milling around taking photos.

On a separate note, why did Nancy Pelosi turn down Trump's offer to provide 10k in National Guardsman?