So your argument is, despite their best intentions, basically socialism just isn’t being done right.
My argument, since you have trouble following along, is that Trump has strong fascist game.
Yes, if you define fascism simply as putting our country before others for a change. Because that’s about all he did differently than the other grifters that have worked their way through that town.
Guess that makes me a fascist too. I’m done carrying every other country’s water. Let them do the heavy lifting for a while….we can’t do THAT and fix the problems in this country at the same time.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
According to Merriam Webster: fascism - fascism is a "a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition."
Exalts nation and often race above the individual - maybe ... America first exalts the nation over the international community not necessarily the individual. The individual is primary in some instances (guns) but not others (abortion). Illiberals exalt the international community over the nation which while not fascist I would argue is just as bad.
Stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader - maybe ... Trump wanted to be a tinpot dictator but was never a real threat due to his own incompetence and our checks and balances to prevent it. Illiberals don't disagree with Trump's desire for a centralized autocratic government. Their concern is more about who would be in charge (i.e. they support it if they're in control).
Severe economic and social regimentation - maybe ... not economic regimentation but an argument could be made for social regimentation. Illiberals, however do want severe economic and social regimentation. They want to control the economy and they want to force their social mores on conservatives.
Forcible suppression of opposition - No. You could make an argument if you give credence to the dumb ass things he said and maybe dreamt about but in terms of actual events he did not suppress the opposition. Do you really believe that your illiberal kalmrades don't dream about forcibly suppressing conservatives? If one can be convicted based on thoughts then they should be held accountable as well.
I'm still not convinced that Trump is any more of a fascist than AOChe but I won't hold my breath waiting for Nina Jankowicz to address the disinformation.
Similar to Ganny you’re confusing fascism with authoritarianism. Your strongest argument is that our system was strong enough to withstand Trump’s fascistic desires.
You’re right that it mostly was, but lowering tax rates further consolidated power which will have lasting effects. That’s a hallmark of fascism - corporatism that favors the elites who swear fealty to the party (eerily similar to soviet and current Russian style authoritarianism. And Alan Moore’s Chancellor Sutler in V for Vendetta being a terrific fictional example.)
So you’re wrong on the economics but correct on some comparisons to the left. Lord knows Hillary is a shining example of power and wealth consolidation - corporatism. The same however, is not true when it comes to labor supporting leftists like AOC or Bernie. As history as shown, despite labor’s best intentions and the marxist overthrow of the ruling capitalist class, authoritarianism and individual power typically wins the day - similar to fascism. Again except for in America so far.
Are fascism and marxism-Leninism similar in that they both can lead to authoritarianism? Of course. But they are different too, and Trump fits squarely on one side.
Stop it. You literally abandoned ship on the other thread when I questioned your definition of fascism (you had the wiki version, I had all the other, non-editable versions). Trump isn't Hitler and was, and never will be, anything close to it. You can be a despicable human being and not actually be a fascist.
Similar to Ganny you’re confusing fascism with authoritarianism. Your strongest argument is that our system was strong enough to withstand Trump’s fascistic desires.
You’re right that it mostly was, but lowering tax rates further consolidated power which will have lasting effects. That’s a hallmark of fascism - corporatism that favors the elites who swear fealty to the party (eerily similar to soviet and current Russian style authoritarianism. And Alan Moore’s Chancellor Sutler in V for Vendetta being a terrific fictional example.)
So you’re wrong on the economics but correct on some comparisons to the left. Lord knows Hillary is a shining example of power and wealth consolidation - corporatism. The same however, is not true when it comes to labor supporting leftists like AOC or Bernie. As history as shown, despite labor’s best intentions and the marxist overthrow of the ruling capitalist class, authoritarianism and individual power typically wins the day - similar to fascism. Again except for in America so far.
Are fascism and marxism-Leninism similar in that they both can lead to authoritarianism? Of course. But they are different too, and Trump fits squarely on one side.
Stop it. You literally abandoned ship on the other thread when I questioned your definition of fascism (you had the wiki version, I had all the other, non-editable versions). Trump isn't Hitler and was, and never will be, anything close to it. You can be a despicable human being and not actually be a fascist.
I think you may have stopped reading that thread. Lol.
According to Merriam Webster: fascism - fascism is a "a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition."
Exalts nation and often race above the individual - maybe ... America first exalts the nation over the international community not necessarily the individual. The individual is primary in some instances (guns) but not others (abortion). Illiberals exalt the international community over the nation which while not fascist I would argue is just as bad.
Stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader - maybe ... Trump wanted to be a tinpot dictator but was never a real threat due to his own incompetence and our checks and balances to prevent it. Illiberals don't disagree with Trump's desire for a centralized autocratic government. Their concern is more about who would be in charge (i.e. they support it if they're in control).
Severe economic and social regimentation - maybe ... not economic regimentation but an argument could be made for social regimentation. Illiberals, however do want severe economic and social regimentation. They want to control the economy and they want to force their social mores on conservatives.
Forcible suppression of opposition - No. You could make an argument if you give credence to the dumb ass things he said and maybe dreamt about but in terms of actual events he did not suppress the opposition. Do you really believe that your illiberal kalmrades don't dream about forcibly suppressing conservatives? If one can be convicted based on thoughts then they should be held accountable as well.
I'm still not convinced that Trump is any more of a fascist than AOChe but I won't hold my breath waiting for Nina Jankowicz to address the disinformation.
Similar to Ganny you’re confusing fascism with authoritarianism. Your strongest argument is that our system was strong enough to withstand Trump’s fascistic desires.
You’re right that it mostly was, but lowering tax rates further consolidated power which will have lasting effects. That’s a hallmark of fascism - corporatism that favors the elites who swear fealty to the party (eerily similar to soviet and current Russian style authoritarianism. And Alan Moore’s Chancellor Sutler in V for Vendetta being a terrific fictional example.)
So you’re wrong on the economics but correct on some comparisons to the left. Lord knows Hillary is a shining example of power and wealth consolidation - corporatism. The same however, is not true when it comes to labor supporting leftists like AOC or Bernie. As history as shown, despite labor’s best intentions and the marxist overthrow of the ruling capitalist class, authoritarianism and individual power typically wins the day - similar to fascism. Again except for in America so far.
Are fascism and marxism-Leninism similar in that they both can lead to authoritarianism? Of course. But they are different too, and Trump fits squarely on one side.
While Trump clearly gave everyone an enemy (a hallmark of fascism), he didn't go about trying to create or even promote ethnic homogeneity (another key hallmark) or create some totalitarian state. He was the worst kind of populist for sure but If we're going off the historical examples of Hitler and Mussolini for fascism...then Trump doesn't fit the bill. And let's be honest - those are the examples.
"Fascists" is more sound bit worthy and scream-able than "Authoritarian!" If we know any thing from extremists on both sides, they don't concern themselves too much with facts. Calling someone a fascist is a quick and easy identifier and if someone doesn't know what that means, we have a quick and easy definition (which is interchangeable and more effective) - Hitler.
If anything, Trump was more of an authoritarian populist.
Similar to Ganny you’re confusing fascism with authoritarianism. Your strongest argument is that our system was strong enough to withstand Trump’s fascistic desires.
You’re right that it mostly was, but lowering tax rates further consolidated power which will have lasting effects. That’s a hallmark of fascism - corporatism that favors the elites who swear fealty to the party (eerily similar to soviet and current Russian style authoritarianism. And Alan Moore’s Chancellor Sutler in V for Vendetta being a terrific fictional example.)
So you’re wrong on the economics but correct on some comparisons to the left. Lord knows Hillary is a shining example of power and wealth consolidation - corporatism. The same however, is not true when it comes to labor supporting leftists like AOC or Bernie. As history as shown, despite labor’s best intentions and the marxist overthrow of the ruling capitalist class, authoritarianism and individual power typically wins the day - similar to fascism. Again except for in America so far.
Are fascism and marxism-Leninism similar in that they both can lead to authoritarianism? Of course. But they are different too, and Trump fits squarely on one side.
While Trump clearly gave everyone an enemy (a hallmark of fascism), he didn't go about trying to create or even promote ethnic homogeneity (another key hallmark) or create some totalitarian state. He was the worst kind of populist for sure but If we're going off the historical examples of Hitler and Mussolini for fascism...then Trump doesn't fit the bill. And let's be honest - those are the examples.
"Fascists" is more sound bit worthy and scream-able than "Authoritarian!" If we know any thing from extremists on both sides, they don't concern themselves too much with facts. Calling someone a fascist is a quick and easy identifier and if someone doesn't know what that means, we have a quick and easy definition (which is interchangeable and more effective) - Hitler.
If anything, Trump was more of an authoritarian populist.
Yes…this is semantics and the same can of course be said regarding labeling everything you don’t like…marxist or socialist.
The ascension of Franco, Mussolini, and Hitler took over a decade. The era and political systems were different than ours. I’m fine with authoritarian populism. It applies to both sides of the aisle. We’re literally seeing that in the case of Putin and rest of the world leaders Trump admires so much. Despite the various hypocrisies I think this to be a greater war against world wide authoritarianism. Those who believe in democracy and it all its clumsy awkwardness and those who gravitate to a strong leader.
My son and I were just discussing the irony of Lech Walesa’s rise as labor leader pitted against the authoritarian communist party of soviet influenced Poland.
Ibanez wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 5:00 am
While Trump clearly gave everyone an enemy (a hallmark of fascism), he didn't go about trying to create or even promote ethnic homogeneity (another key hallmark) or create some totalitarian state. He was the worst kind of populist for sure but If we're going off the historical examples of Hitler and Mussolini for fascism...then Trump doesn't fit the bill. And let's be honest - those are the examples.
"Fascists" is more sound bit worthy and scream-able than "Authoritarian!" If we know any thing from extremists on both sides, they don't concern themselves too much with facts. Calling someone a fascist is a quick and easy identifier and if someone doesn't know what that means, we have a quick and easy definition (which is interchangeable and more effective) - Hitler.
If anything, Trump was more of an authoritarian populist.
Yes…this is semantics and the same can of course be said regarding labeling everything you don’t like…marxist or socialist.
The ascension of Franco, Mussolini, and Hitler took over a decade. The era and political systems were different than ours. I’m fine with authoritarian populism. It applies to both sides of the aisle. We’re literally seeing that in the case of Putin and rest of the world leaders Trump admires so much. Despite the various hypocrisies I think this to be a greater war against world wide authoritarianism. Those who believe in democracy and it all its clumsy awkwardness and those who gravitate to a strong leader.
My son and I were just discussing the irony of Lech Walesa’s rise as labor leader pitted against the authoritarian communist party of soviet influenced Poland.
Labels are tricky.
Some labels are tricky. Other's aren't, however, our politics and constituency are too stupid to differentiate among various degrees of Democratic or Republican so we keep with those 2 terms. Understanding what communists, Marxists, Leninists, etc.. truly are isn't common so we usually say you're a communist or a socialist (try explaining that socialism is the first phase of communism and that'll blow some minds.)
Yes…this is semantics and the same can of course be said regarding labeling everything you don’t like…marxist or socialist.
The ascension of Franco, Mussolini, and Hitler took over a decade. The era and political systems were different than ours. I’m fine with authoritarian populism. It applies to both sides of the aisle. We’re literally seeing that in the case of Putin and rest of the world leaders Trump admires so much. Despite the various hypocrisies I think this to be a greater war against world wide authoritarianism. Those who believe in democracy and it all its clumsy awkwardness and those who gravitate to a strong leader.
My son and I were just discussing the irony of Lech Walesa’s rise as labor leader pitted against the authoritarian communist party of soviet influenced Poland.
Labels are tricky.
Some labels are tricky. Other's aren't, however, our politics and constituency are too stupid to differentiate among various degrees of Democratic or Republican so we keep with those 2 terms. Understanding what communists, Marxists, Leninists, etc.. truly are isn't common so we usually say you're a communist or a socialist (try explaining that socialism is the first phase of communism and that'll blow some minds.)
Most Americans don't know how to do their taxes or balance their checkbooks, FFS, and you want them to understand the difference between communists, marxists, leninists, fascists, Nazis, socialists, etc., etc.?
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
Some labels are tricky. Other's aren't, however, our politics and constituency are too stupid to differentiate among various degrees of Democratic or Republican so we keep with those 2 terms. Understanding what communists, Marxists, Leninists, etc.. truly are isn't common so we usually say you're a communist or a socialist (try explaining that socialism is the first phase of communism and that'll blow some minds.)
Most Americans don't know how to do their taxes or balance their checkbooks, FFS, and you want them to understand the difference between communists, marxists, leninists, fascists, Nazis, socialists, etc., etc.?
You are giving Americans too much credit, IMHO. I have ran across some truly stupid people (as in they deliberately chose to remain ignorant) in my travels unfortunately.
“The best of all things is to learn. Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.” – Louis L’Amour
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf
"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein
Some labels are tricky. Other's aren't, however, our politics and constituency are too stupid to differentiate among various degrees of Democratic or Republican so we keep with those 2 terms. Understanding what communists, Marxists, Leninists, etc.. truly are isn't common so we usually say you're a communist or a socialist (try explaining that socialism is the first phase of communism and that'll blow some minds.)
Most Americans don't know how to do their taxes or balance their checkbooks, FFS, and you want them to understand the difference between communists, marxists, leninists, fascists, Nazis, socialists, etc., etc.?
My argument, since you have trouble following along, is that Trump has strong fascist game.
Yes, if you define fascism simply as putting our country before others for a change. Because that’s about all he did differently than the other grifters that have worked their way through that town.
Guess that makes me a fascist too. I’m done carrying every other country’s water. Let them do the heavy lifting for a while….we can’t do THAT and fix the problems in this country at the same time.
No Americans dying there that aren't volunteers, we're just the facilitators, Z. Helping our brothers lift themselves by their bootstraps.
Normally I'd agree with you to some extent, but this is one of those things that fortune has dropped in our lap: an opportunity have some friends slap the piss out of a punk thats been irritating us for quite a while now. We might as well work his ass just for the fuck of it and to show the Chinese how much we enjoy it.
The best way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of opinion but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - Noam Chomsky
The next time some fool suggests Hillary Clinton lost because she's a woman remind them one candidate the GOP establishment is trying to stop is...a black woman.
My argument, since you have trouble following along, is that Trump has strong fascist game.
Yes, if you define fascism simply as putting our country before others for a change. Because that’s about all he did differently than the other grifters that have worked their way through that town.
Guess that makes me a fascist too. I’m done carrying every other country’s water. Let them do the heavy lifting for a while….we can’t do THAT and fix the problems in this country at the same time.
that fat prick never did a thing in his life for anybody but himself. First, last, always, right up to letting his kids take a fall for him
The best way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of opinion but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - Noam Chomsky
Yes, if you define fascism simply as putting our country before others for a change. Because that’s about all he did differently than the other grifters that have worked their way through that town.
Guess that makes me a fascist too. I’m done carrying every other country’s water. Let them do the heavy lifting for a while….we can’t do THAT and fix the problems in this country at the same time.
that fat prick never did a thing in his life for anybody but himself. First, last, always, right up to letting his kids take a fall for him
And yet he was 10x the president as the current Buffoon occupying the White House.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
that fat prick never did a thing in his life for anybody but himself. First, last, always, right up to letting his kids take a fall for him
And yet he was 10x the president as the current Buffoon occupying the White House.
Biden's toe jam is already a better president than the previous syphilitic-sucker-of-Russian-dick.
The best way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of opinion but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - Noam Chomsky
Conk side
7 candidates, but a 3 way race that has gotten huge national attention. Went with Tom McCormick, West Point grad, 82nd ABN, Gulf War vet, CEO of Bridgewater Associates. Close 2nd for me was Kathy Barnette, also a military vet. Nothing would drive the left more batshit crazy than a conservative black woman whom they have labeled left ‘Ultra MAGA’. Didn’t like that she stated she wouldn’t support either of the other 2 if she didn’t win. Course Trump endorsed Dr Oz.
On the donk side the the 6’8” Lt Governor John Fetterman, who usually campaigns in shorts and a sweatshirt, won the nomination. He finished 4th in the 2016 donk primary for Gov before winning Lt Gov in 2018. He did just suffer a stroke this week.
Governor
Conk side.
7 candidates (9 on ballot but 2 had dropped out). For me it came down to 2 Italians, former Rep Lou Barletta, and Douglas Mastriano, Pa state senator, retired colonel in the Army, and endorsed by Trump. Barletta had taken strong stances against illegal immigration back when he was mayor of Hazleton, and in Congress, and has pretty good conservative credentials. I was back and forth between the 2, and made a snap decision to go with Mastriano.
Donk side is Josh Shapiro, the state AG who ran unopposed in November.
Lt Gov
Conk side 9 candidates. I wasn’t familiar with any of them. Quick research I went with the apparently 6’4”/360, self described MAGA candidate, described as ‘far right’ by the msm, Teddy Daniels. Started at OG for WVU back in the 90s. Combat vet, purple heart ( (Afghanistan), retired PD. 2018 unsuccessful run for Congress in a redistricted district.
Donk side I have no idea who the candidates are.
——————-
Everything else local..
Last edited by BDKJMU on Tue May 17, 2022 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
..peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard..
..But you have to go home now. We have to have peace…
..I know how you feel, but go home, and go home in peace.
JMU Football: 2022 & 2023 Sun Belt East Champions.
BDKJMU wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 6:30 pm
YUGE primary here in PA.
Senate: Open seat with Pat Tomey retiring.
Conk side
7 candidates, but a 3 way race that has gotten huge national attention. Went with Tom McCormick, West Point grad, 82nd ABN, Gulf War vet, CEO of Bridgewater Associates. Close 2nd for me was Kathy Barnette, also a military vet. Nothing would drive the left more batshit crazy than a conservative black woman whom they have labeled left ‘Ultra MAGA’. Didn’t like that she stated she wouldn’t support either of the other 2 if she didn’t win. Course Trump endorsed Dr Oz.
On the donk side the the 6’8” Lt Governor John Fetterman, who usually campaigns in shorts and a sweatshirt, won the nomination. He finished 4th in the 2016 donk primary for Gov before winning Lt Gov in 2018. He did just suffer a stroke this week.
Governor
Conk side.
7 candidates (9 on ballot but 2 had dropped out). For me it came down to 2 Italians, former Rep Lou Barletta, and Douglas Mastriano, Pa state senator, retired colonel in the Army, and endorsed by Trump. Barletta had taken strong stances against illegal immigration back when he was mayor of Hazleton, and in Congress, and has pretty good conservative credentials. I was back and forth between the 2, and made a snap decision to go with Mastriano.
Donk side is Josh Shapiro, the state AG who ran unopposed in November.
Lt Gov
Conk side 9 candidates. I wasn’t familiar with any of them. Quick research I went with the apparently 6’4”/360, self described MAGA candidate, described as ‘far right’ by the msm, Teddy Daniels. Started at OG for WVU back in the 90s. Combat vet, purple heart ( (Afghanistan), retired PD. 2018 unsuccessful run for Congress in a redistricted district.
Donk side I have no idea who the candidates are.
——————-
Everything else local..
Trump endorsing Oz is just comical. Couldn't have picked a worse candidate.
BDKJMU wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 6:30 pm
YUGE primary here in PA.
Senate: Open seat with Pat Tomey retiring.
Conk side
7 candidates, but a 3 way race that has gotten huge national attention. Went with Tom McCormick, West Point grad, 82nd ABN, Gulf War vet, CEO of Bridgewater Associates. Close 2nd for me was Kathy Barnette, also a military vet. Nothing would drive the left more batshit crazy than a conservative black woman whom they have labeled left ‘Ultra MAGA’. Didn’t like that she stated she wouldn’t support either of the other 2 if she didn’t win. Course Trump endorsed Dr Oz.
On the donk side the the 6’8” Lt Governor John Fetterman, who usually campaigns in shorts and a sweatshirt, won the nomination. He finished 4th in the 2016 donk primary for Gov before winning Lt Gov in 2018. He did just suffer a stroke this week.
Governor
Conk side.
7 candidates (9 on ballot but 2 had dropped out). For me it came down to 2 Italians, former Rep Lou Barletta, and Douglas Mastriano, Pa state senator, retired colonel in the Army, and endorsed by Trump. Barletta had taken strong stances against illegal immigration back when he was mayor of Hazleton, and in Congress, and has pretty good conservative credentials. I was back and forth between the 2, and made a snap decision to go with Mastriano.
Donk side is Josh Shapiro, the state AG who ran unopposed in November.
Lt Gov
Conk side 9 candidates. I wasn’t familiar with any of them. Quick research I went with the apparently 6’4”/360, self described MAGA candidate, described as ‘far right’ by the msm, Teddy Daniels. Started at OG for WVU back in the 90s. Combat vet, purple heart ( (Afghanistan), retired PD. 2018 unsuccessful run for Congress in a redistricted district.
Donk side I have no idea who the candidates are.
——————-
Everything else local..
Tonight to close to call between McCormick at 31.3% and Dr Oz at 31.1%.
Mastriano wins. Judging by the reaction of the msm who are labeling him ‘far right’, and ‘extreme’, I made the right pick .
Lt gov my pick finished 3rd.
..peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard..
..But you have to go home now. We have to have peace…
..I know how you feel, but go home, and go home in peace.
JMU Football: 2022 & 2023 Sun Belt East Champions.
BDKJMU wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 6:30 pm
YUGE primary here in PA.
Senate: Open seat with Pat Tomey retiring.
Conk side
7 candidates, but a 3 way race that has gotten huge national attention. Went with Tom McCormick, West Point grad, 82nd ABN, Gulf War vet, CEO of Bridgewater Associates. Close 2nd for me was Kathy Barnette, also a military vet. Nothing would drive the left more batshit crazy than a conservative black woman whom they have labeled left ‘Ultra MAGA’. Didn’t like that she stated she wouldn’t support either of the other 2 if she didn’t win. Course Trump endorsed Dr Oz.
On the donk side the the 6’8” Lt Governor John Fetterman, who usually campaigns in shorts and a sweatshirt, won the nomination. He finished 4th in the 2016 donk primary for Gov before winning Lt Gov in 2018. He did just suffer a stroke this week.
Governor
Conk side.
7 candidates (9 on ballot but 2 had dropped out). For me it came down to 2 Italians, former Rep Lou Barletta, and Douglas Mastriano, Pa state senator, retired colonel in the Army, and endorsed by Trump. Barletta had taken strong stances against illegal immigration back when he was mayor of Hazleton, and in Congress, and has pretty good conservative credentials. I was back and forth between the 2, and made a snap decision to go with Mastriano.
Donk side is Josh Shapiro, the state AG who ran unopposed in November.
Lt Gov
Conk side 9 candidates. I wasn’t familiar with any of them. Quick research I went with the apparently 6’4”/360, self described MAGA candidate, described as ‘far right’ by the msm, Teddy Daniels. Started at OG for WVU back in the 90s. Combat vet, purple heart ( (Afghanistan), retired PD. 2018 unsuccessful run for Congress in a redistricted district.
Donk side I have no idea who the candidates are.
——————-
Everything else local..
Trump endorsing Oz is just comical. Couldn't have picked a worse candidate.
He then endorsed Madison Cawthorn..so yeah. He could.