Uvalde School Shooting

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Baldy
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by Baldy »

kalm wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:15 pm
BDKJMU wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 4:07 pm
Its not the Republicans who led the push to stop institutionalizing the mentally ill, and are against re-instating that.

How are Republicans trying to undermine public education?

Edit: God damn fat finger typos
Ummmm…Saint Reagan was largely responsible for deinstitutionalizing the mentally ill both as governor and President. On account of psychiatry might lead to communism or something.

Similar to ripping Carter’s solar panels off the White House, old Ronnie quickly dispatched Carter’s new policy of enhancing mental health care.
Your hard-on of hate for Reagan aside, you are completely wrong. The deinstitutionalizing of the mentally ill started long before he became governor or president. Cali started emptying the asylums back in the 1950's, and on a Federal level, it started in the Eisenhower administration and was ramped up during Kennedy and Johnson. The solutions were drug regimens and the move to community based treatment centers. Court decisions around that time also took many of the commitment powers away from state and local officials.

It was a failure of government on so many levels.
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by houndawg »

BDKJMU wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 5:05 pm I don’t know about this case, but with the Buffalo shooting there are already a NY red flag law that should have stopped this lunatic from purchasing the firearm. You have an 18 yr old who:
-June a yr ago he allegedly said in class that he wanted to commit a murder-suicide after he was asked about his plans after high school graduation. He was taken into custody & to the hospital for a mental health evaluation.
-He alledgedly cut the head off a cat.
-He wrote a 180 page manifesto.

How in the hell does that not trigger a red flag?
Because it isn't unusual behavior among your crowd. :coffee:
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by houndawg »

AZGrizFan wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:25 pm
Ibanez wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:02 pm
No, I wouldn't put that on the teachers. But those teachers are the first line and they can report them to a counselor. There's no one right and best answer. Early intervention, like all things, is key.

So I've read that police showed up and exchanged fire with the shooter, there wasn't any mention of an armed guard. He was wearing a tactical vest with NO plates in them. You'd think, in 2022 ,we'd have a clearer picture of what happen.
You would think. Hell, the first reports that came out said TWO people were killed. The next update said EIGHTEEN. Fog of war shit, I guess. :ohno:
Up to 22 now - I think they should consider releasing pictures so that the public can see what an AR does to a 10 year old kid.
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by houndawg »

UNI88 wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 11:32 am
Col Hogan wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:43 am

So, you equate school vouchers to defunding the police???
I think that:
  • A smart and well-run school voucher approach is a good thing.
  • Public education isn't perfect, it needs to be reformed.
  • Public education should be handled by the states.
  • Public education is a critical element to America being the land of opportunity and our long-term future global competitiveness depends on sound public education. As such, public education should be considered necessary infrastructure.
  • Many Republicans seem to want to gradually tear away at public education. Why? I don't know but it's as stupid as defunding the police.
They want them just smart enough to find their way to the factory and punch a time clock :coffee:
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by Ibanez »

BDKJMU wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 4:07 pm
UNI88 wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:55 am

:nod: If Republicans were serious about protecting children they would also be in favor of addressing mental healthcare and wouldn't be trying to undermine public education.
Its not the Republicans who led the push to stop institutionalizing the mentally ill, and are against re-instating that.

How are Republicans trying to undermine public education?

Edit: God damn fat finger typos
Again - i'm not up to speed entirely on the issue but wouldn't school vouchers be undermining public education? Why should your tax dollars go to a private school that most likely has an endowment fund (I realize they all don't but so many do.)
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by AZGrizFan »

UNI88 wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 11:32 am

I think that:
  • A smart and well-run school voucher approach is a good thing.
  • Public education isn't perfect, it needs to be reformed.
  • Public education should be handled by the states.
  • Public education is a critical element to America being the land of opportunity and our long-term future global competitiveness depends on sound public education. As such, public education should be considered necessary infrastructure.
  • Many Republicans seem to want to gradually tear away at public education. Why? I don't know but it's as stupid as defunding the police.
Seriously? You don’t know why? Please tell me you’re kidding.
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by kalm »

Baldy wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 11:34 pm
kalm wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:15 pm

Ummmm…Saint Reagan was largely responsible for deinstitutionalizing the mentally ill both as governor and President. On account of psychiatry might lead to communism or something.

Similar to ripping Carter’s solar panels off the White House, old Ronnie quickly dispatched Carter’s new policy of enhancing mental health care.
Your hard-on of hate for Reagan aside, you are completely wrong. The deinstitutionalizing of the mentally ill started long before he became governor or president. Cali started emptying the asylums back in the 1950's, and on a Federal level, it started in the Eisenhower administration and was ramped up during Kennedy and Johnson. The solutions were drug regimens and the move to community based treatment centers. Court decisions around that time also took many of the commitment powers away from state and local officials.

It was a failure of government on so many levels.
Source?
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by Ibanez »

Baldy wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 11:34 pm
kalm wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:15 pm

Ummmm…Saint Reagan was largely responsible for deinstitutionalizing the mentally ill both as governor and President. On account of psychiatry might lead to communism or something.

Similar to ripping Carter’s solar panels off the White House, old Ronnie quickly dispatched Carter’s new policy of enhancing mental health care.
Your hard-on of hate for Reagan aside, you are completely wrong. The deinstitutionalizing of the mentally ill started long before he became governor or president. Cali started emptying the asylums back in the 1950's, and on a Federal level, it started in the Eisenhower administration and was ramped up during Kennedy and Johnson. The solutions were drug regimens and the move to community based treatment centers. Court decisions around that time also took many of the commitment powers away from state and local officials.

It was a failure of government on so many levels.
That's what we're good at, if anything.
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by SeattleGriz »

Wanted to wait before I posted as what I was reading hadn't been confirmed. Seems this situation is similar to Florida in which the shooter was in the school for about 45 minutes with the police outside.

I don't know what the answer is in regards to police "storming" in the school, but this doesn't sound too good for police.
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by houndawg »

SeattleGriz wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 6:39 am Wanted to wait before I posted as what I was reading hadn't been confirmed. Seems this situation is similar to Florida in which the shooter was in the school for about 45 minutes with the police outside.

I don't know what the answer is in regards to police "storming" in the school, but this doesn't sound too good for police.
The police on the scene were outgunned, SG. Just because the AR-15 is the participation trophy for those too weak or stupid for military service doesn't mean it isn't the best tool readily available to the public for killing large numbers of people in the shortest time. I hope they release pictures from the scene so that the public can get an idea of what these things do to a body. Given military ball ammo they will put a round through a telephone poll. I've seen it done. A security guard with a pistol has a vanishingly small chance against somebody with an AR. Good guy with a gun, my lily-white ass
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by SeattleGriz »

houndawg wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 6:57 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 6:39 am Wanted to wait before I posted as what I was reading hadn't been confirmed. Seems this situation is similar to Florida in which the shooter was in the school for about 45 minutes with the police outside.

I don't know what the answer is in regards to police "storming" in the school, but this doesn't sound too good for police.
The police on the scene were outgunned, SG. Just because the AR-15 is the participation trophy for those too weak or stupid for military service doesn't mean it isn't the best tool readily available to the public for killing large numbers of people in the shortest time. I hope they release pictures from the scene so that the public can get an idea of what these things do to a body. Given military ball ammo they will put a round through a telephone poll. I've seen it done. A security guard with a pistol has a vanishingly small chance against somebody with an AR. Good guy with a gun, my lily-white ass
Outgunned? It took one special agent to take the kid out. How were multiple police outgunned? Those cops all have more than pistols.

As I've never been in that situation, I can't say much, just doesn't look good at this point.

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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by Baldy »

kalm wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 6:25 am
Baldy wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 11:34 pm
Your hard-on of hate for Reagan aside, you are completely wrong. The deinstitutionalizing of the mentally ill started long before he became governor or president. Cali started emptying the asylums back in the 1950's, and on a Federal level, it started in the Eisenhower administration and was ramped up during Kennedy and Johnson. The solutions were drug regimens and the move to community based treatment centers. Court decisions around that time also took many of the commitment powers away from state and local officials.

It was a failure of government on so many levels.
Source?
Really? The internet isnt that hard.

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=ny%20tim ... lth%20&l=1
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by kalm »

Baldy wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:11 am
kalm wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 6:25 am

Source?
Really? The internet isnt that hard.

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=ny%20tim ... lth%20&l=1
Yes really. What part of my post regarding Reagan’s actions is “completely wrong”? It ain’t exactly a secret.

I’m honestly interested in the rest of the story and deeper history of mental health administration you alluded to. I can admit to inaccuracies. But I’m not going to do a deeper dive on your assertions alone.

Your choice.
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by kalm »

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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:44 am Image
Well then they need to quit blaming guns.
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by Ibanez »

SeattleGriz wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:01 am
houndawg wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 6:57 am

The police on the scene were outgunned, SG. Just because the AR-15 is the participation trophy for those too weak or stupid for military service doesn't mean it isn't the best tool readily available to the public for killing large numbers of people in the shortest time. I hope they release pictures from the scene so that the public can get an idea of what these things do to a body. Given military ball ammo they will put a round through a telephone poll. I've seen it done. A security guard with a pistol has a vanishingly small chance against somebody with an AR. Good guy with a gun, my lily-white ass
Outgunned? It took one special agent to take the kid out. How were multiple police outgunned? Those cops all have more than pistols.

As I've never been in that situation, I can't say much, just doesn't look good at this point.

I'm more concerned with the 90 minutes or so it took to take that fucker out. I'd personally rather have to deal with the affects of flash bang grenades thrown in the room if it meant the kids survived or got to the ER quicker for a better chance at survival.

Also would've preferred if this punk just killed himself instead of taking 21 families down with him.
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by SeattleGriz »

Ibanez wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:55 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:01 am

Outgunned? It took one special agent to take the kid out. How were multiple police outgunned? Those cops all have more than pistols.

As I've never been in that situation, I can't say much, just doesn't look good at this point.

I'm more concerned with the 90 minutes or so it took to take that fucker out. I'd personally rather have to deal with the affects of flash bang grenades thrown in the room if it meant the kids survived or got to the ER quicker for a better chance at survival.

Also would've preferred if this punk just killed himself instead of taking 21 families down with him.
Agreed. Apparently it took someone to get the police a key to enter the locked room. That there also tells you it wasn't any police action that prevented him from doing more damage.

I'll say this now. Police have a job I cannot do. It's a big reason why I'm respectful and do exactly as I'm told when interacting with them, but I feel their actions in this case were very poor.
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:55 am
kalm wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:44 am Image
Well then they need to quit blaming guns.
I think that’s the point. Reasonable gun control measures are not blaming the guns.
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 8:06 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:55 am

Well then they need to quit blaming guns.
I think that’s the point. Reasonable gun control measures are not blaming the guns.
10,000 “reasonable gun control” laws already on the books. 10,000 of them routinely ignored by criminals and psychos.
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by Ibanez »

SeattleGriz wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 8:00 am
Ibanez wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:55 am
I'm more concerned with the 90 minutes or so it took to take that fucker out. I'd personally rather have to deal with the affects of flash bang grenades thrown in the room if it meant the kids survived or got to the ER quicker for a better chance at survival.

Also would've preferred if this punk just killed himself instead of taking 21 families down with him.
Agreed. Apparently it took someone to get the police a key to enter the locked room. That there also tells you it wasn't any police action that prevented him from doing more damage.

I'll say this now. Police have a job I cannot do. It's a big reason why I'm respectful and do exactly as I'm told when interacting with them, but I feel their actions in this case were very poor.
I truly feel for them. It's a tough job that I couldn't do. Having worked with SWAT, ATF, DEA, Secret Service, and various other tactical teams from around the country - those people have a difficult job and are often times hamstrung by procedure. We can sit here and quarterback it all we want and wish they could've gone faster, or that the first cop had hit the fucker in the chest and dropped him immediately. Or chased him inside and unloaded into his back, etc...
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 8:07 am
kalm wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 8:06 am

I think that’s the point. Reasonable gun control measures are not blaming the guns.
10,000 “reasonable gun control” laws already on the books. 10,000 of them routinely ignored by criminals and psychos.
Eliminate/improve the ineffective. It’s not that we need more laws. We need less. If people weren’t selfish assholes we’d need almost none.

But a functioning society also recognizes the shortcomings of humans and accepts the need for change.
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by SeattleGriz »

Ibanez wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 8:12 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 8:00 am

Agreed. Apparently it took someone to get the police a key to enter the locked room. That there also tells you it wasn't any police action that prevented him from doing more damage.

I'll say this now. Police have a job I cannot do. It's a big reason why I'm respectful and do exactly as I'm told when interacting with them, but I feel their actions in this case were very poor.
I truly feel for them. It's a tough job that I couldn't do. Having worked with SWAT, ATF, DEA, Secret Service, and various other tactical teams from around the country - those people have a difficult job and are often times hamstrung by procedure. We can sit here and quarterback it all we want and wish they could've gone faster, or that the first cop had hit the fucker in the chest and dropped him immediately. Or chased him inside and unloaded into his back, etc...
Agree on all you said...but, when one Border Patrol agent enters the room solo and takes the kid out, it leaves you questioning the plan or procedure.
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by AZGrizFan »

SeattleGriz wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 8:30 am
Ibanez wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 8:12 am
I truly feel for them. It's a tough job that I couldn't do. Having worked with SWAT, ATF, DEA, Secret Service, and various other tactical teams from around the country - those people have a difficult job and are often times hamstrung by procedure. We can sit here and quarterback it all we want and wish they could've gone faster, or that the first cop had hit the fucker in the chest and dropped him immediately. Or chased him inside and unloaded into his back, etc...
Agree on all you said...but, when one Border Patrol agent enters the room solo and takes the kid out, it leaves you questioning the plan or procedure.
Yes, it does, but they’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t. If they’d gotten this kid OUTSIDE the school when he crashed his truck, they’d have been accused of being racist, white power hungry cops who hate minorities, and then this kid would have been held up as a shining member of the Uvalde community, just misunderstood, Ala George Floyd.
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by HI54UNI »

WTF? This is even dumber than Beto's stunt at the press conference.
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Re: Uvalde School Shooting

Post by GannonFan »

SeattleGriz wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 8:30 am
Ibanez wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 8:12 am
I truly feel for them. It's a tough job that I couldn't do. Having worked with SWAT, ATF, DEA, Secret Service, and various other tactical teams from around the country - those people have a difficult job and are often times hamstrung by procedure. We can sit here and quarterback it all we want and wish they could've gone faster, or that the first cop had hit the fucker in the chest and dropped him immediately. Or chased him inside and unloaded into his back, etc...
Agree on all you said...but, when one Border Patrol agent enters the room solo and takes the kid out, it leaves you questioning the plan or procedure.
Do we even know that? I thought three guys entered the room once they got access - one guy had the shield (and took multiple hits from the gunman) and two other guys followed him in and took out the shooter. Amazing the lack of details at this point.
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