Southwest Water Crisis Thread
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Southwest Water Crisis Thread
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
Don't think Phoenix golf courses deserve a drop.
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
I actually agree with this. Nor do the Vegas fountains or southwest lawns/cemeteries.
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
This is why I took up disc golf. Couldn't afford to play at a decent course in Phoenix when I lived there.
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
Did you ever play the disc golf course at Camino del Vista in Scottsdale (right by Dukes)SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:48 pmThis is why I took up disc golf. Couldn't afford to play at a decent course in Phoenix when I lived there.
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
Played there almost exclusively, and most recently, twice when I was down visiting a week ago. Lost two discs in the water!dbackjon wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:52 pmDid you ever play the disc golf course at Camino del Vista in Scottsdale (right by Dukes)SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:48 pm
This is why I took up disc golf. Couldn't afford to play at a decent course in Phoenix when I lived there.
Dukes was awesome because the owner is from Montana and he would always show the Griz games back when you could get unencrypted coordinates. Watched many a game there after 18 holes.
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
The one time I will say - fucking California.Pwns wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:30 pm https://thehill.com/policy/energy-envir ... alks-fail/
Thought this warranted its own thread.
The Compacts that Arizona signed to get the funding for the Central Arizona Project favored California in time of drought. California has failed to take meaningful drought action, especially for the big monied farmers in the Central Valley.
Arizona sold it's soul to get more water, financed by the Feds. Now it is paying the price. And can't totally blame California - the development/ag interests were so eager to get Colorado River water they were willing to sign away rights to the water in case of drought, knowing they would have already made their money and moved on.
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
And, Ducey basically giving away 6 TRILLION gallons of water a year to Saudi Arabia to grow alfalfa to send back to the Middle East doesn't help.
https://azpbs.org/horizon/2022/06/saudi ... n-phoenix/
Arizona is leasing farmland to a Saudi water company, straining aquifers, and threatening future water supply in Phoenix. Fondomonte, a Saudi company, exports the alfalfa to feed its cows in the Middle East. The country has practically exhausted its own underground aquifers there. In Arizona, Fondomonte can pump as much water as it wants at no cost.
Groundwater is unregulated in most rural areas of the state. Fondomonte pays only $25 per acre annually. The State Land Department says the market rate is $50 dollars per acre and it provides a 50% discount because it doesn’t pay for improvements. But the $25 per acre price is about one-sixth of the market price for unimproved farmland with flood irrigation today, according to Charlie Havranek, a Realtor at Southwest Land Associates.
Although there are no records for how much Fondomonte is pumping out of the aquifer, a State Land Department report estimates the company is swallowing as much as 18,000 acre-feet every year – enough water to supply 54,000 single-family homes.
https://azpbs.org/horizon/2022/06/saudi ... n-phoenix/
Arizona is leasing farmland to a Saudi water company, straining aquifers, and threatening future water supply in Phoenix. Fondomonte, a Saudi company, exports the alfalfa to feed its cows in the Middle East. The country has practically exhausted its own underground aquifers there. In Arizona, Fondomonte can pump as much water as it wants at no cost.
Groundwater is unregulated in most rural areas of the state. Fondomonte pays only $25 per acre annually. The State Land Department says the market rate is $50 dollars per acre and it provides a 50% discount because it doesn’t pay for improvements. But the $25 per acre price is about one-sixth of the market price for unimproved farmland with flood irrigation today, according to Charlie Havranek, a Realtor at Southwest Land Associates.
Although there are no records for how much Fondomonte is pumping out of the aquifer, a State Land Department report estimates the company is swallowing as much as 18,000 acre-feet every year – enough water to supply 54,000 single-family homes.
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
Penny wise and pound foolish. BTW: 54,000 homes is a drop in the bucket. This is merely exacerbating an already troublesome issue.dbackjon wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:01 pm And, Ducey basically giving away 6 TRILLION gallons of water a year to Saudi Arabia to grow alfalfa to send back to the Middle East doesn't help.
https://azpbs.org/horizon/2022/06/saudi ... n-phoenix/
Arizona is leasing farmland to a Saudi water company, straining aquifers, and threatening future water supply in Phoenix. Fondomonte, a Saudi company, exports the alfalfa to feed its cows in the Middle East. The country has practically exhausted its own underground aquifers there. In Arizona, Fondomonte can pump as much water as it wants at no cost.
Groundwater is unregulated in most rural areas of the state. Fondomonte pays only $25 per acre annually. The State Land Department says the market rate is $50 dollars per acre and it provides a 50% discount because it doesn’t pay for improvements. But the $25 per acre price is about one-sixth of the market price for unimproved farmland with flood irrigation today, according to Charlie Havranek, a Realtor at Southwest Land Associates.
Although there are no records for how much Fondomonte is pumping out of the aquifer, a State Land Department report estimates the company is swallowing as much as 18,000 acre-feet every year – enough water to supply 54,000 single-family homes.
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
Enough to supply about 40% of Scottsdale. And the state for some reason is subsidizing this, leaving millions on the table.AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:09 pmPenny wise and pound foolish. BTW: 54,000 homes is a drop in the bucket. This is merely exacerbating an already troublesome issue.dbackjon wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:01 pm And, Ducey basically giving away 6 TRILLION gallons of water a year to Saudi Arabia to grow alfalfa to send back to the Middle East doesn't help.
https://azpbs.org/horizon/2022/06/saudi ... n-phoenix/
Arizona is leasing farmland to a Saudi water company, straining aquifers, and threatening future water supply in Phoenix. Fondomonte, a Saudi company, exports the alfalfa to feed its cows in the Middle East. The country has practically exhausted its own underground aquifers there. In Arizona, Fondomonte can pump as much water as it wants at no cost.
Groundwater is unregulated in most rural areas of the state. Fondomonte pays only $25 per acre annually. The State Land Department says the market rate is $50 dollars per acre and it provides a 50% discount because it doesn’t pay for improvements. But the $25 per acre price is about one-sixth of the market price for unimproved farmland with flood irrigation today, according to Charlie Havranek, a Realtor at Southwest Land Associates.
Although there are no records for how much Fondomonte is pumping out of the aquifer, a State Land Department report estimates the company is swallowing as much as 18,000 acre-feet every year – enough water to supply 54,000 single-family homes.
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
yeah, but what good is the money, really?
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
Yeah, I don't remember the exact numbers but the amount of water that almond growers use is just staggering, and IIRC most of those get sent overseas.dbackjon wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:58 pmThe one time I will say - fucking California.Pwns wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:30 pm https://thehill.com/policy/energy-envir ... alks-fail/
Thought this warranted its own thread.
The Compacts that Arizona signed to get the funding for the Central Arizona Project favored California in time of drought. California has failed to take meaningful drought action, especially for the big monied farmers in the Central Valley.
Arizona sold it's soul to get more water, financed by the Feds. Now it is paying the price. And can't totally blame California - the development/ag interests were so eager to get Colorado River water they were willing to sign away rights to the water in case of drought, knowing they would have already made their money and moved on.
One other thing and some here may not like me saying this, anyone who tells you the answer to this is that people need shower heads with timers on them and toilets that can't flush anything bigger than dog turds is FoS. Residential areas account for something like 6-8 percent of water use. It's pointless to try and squeeze much water usage out of regular people. Any politician putting these ideas forward is trying to give the appearance of doing something rather than making sure their donor pals in Ag and industry use their water more efficiently.
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
Little bit of a bunny trail, but water related. Back in high school, we lived right on the edge of this area known as the 'bench'. The bench was where the irrigated farmland started. Anyway, there was this concrete irrigation ditch installed on this downhill section to prevent erosion. The concrete ditch would grow a nice layer of slime on it, so if you wanted, you could actually slide down it on your back, like a water slide, or even try to 'surf' by standing the whole way.
Well, it got really fun when you would board up the top station, let the water level build up and then quickly remove the boards and ride the huge wave down on inner tubes. What we didn't realize, was that farmers were paying for access at certain times of the day and we were messing it all up, not to mention blowing out irrigation levees as well.
The authorities tried to solve the problem by putting parking blocks in the ditch, only to see farm kids use their trucks to remove them. Needless to say, they then placed blocks so large we couldn't remove them.
Farm life.
Well, it got really fun when you would board up the top station, let the water level build up and then quickly remove the boards and ride the huge wave down on inner tubes. What we didn't realize, was that farmers were paying for access at certain times of the day and we were messing it all up, not to mention blowing out irrigation levees as well.
The authorities tried to solve the problem by putting parking blocks in the ditch, only to see farm kids use their trucks to remove them. Needless to say, they then placed blocks so large we couldn't remove them.
Farm life.
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
900 homes uses 3-4 times the water that our golf course uses. Rationing needs to happen everywhere including homes, lawns, golf courses, commercial landscaping, etc.Pwns wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:48 pmYeah, I don't remember the exact numbers but the amount of water that almond growers use is just staggering, and IIRC most of those get sent overseas.dbackjon wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:58 pm
The one time I will say - fucking California.
The Compacts that Arizona signed to get the funding for the Central Arizona Project favored California in time of drought. California has failed to take meaningful drought action, especially for the big monied farmers in the Central Valley.
Arizona sold it's soul to get more water, financed by the Feds. Now it is paying the price. And can't totally blame California - the development/ag interests were so eager to get Colorado River water they were willing to sign away rights to the water in case of drought, knowing they would have already made their money and moved on.
One other thing and some here may not like me saying this, anyone who tells you the answer to this is that people need shower heads with timers on them and toilets that can't flush anything bigger than dog turds is FoS. Residential areas account for something like 6-8 percent of water use. It's pointless to try and squeeze much water usage out of regular people. Any politician putting these ideas forward is trying to give the appearance of doing something rather than making sure their donor pals in Ag and industry use their water more efficiently.
We can have seasonally firm, fast, and dry fairways and poop outdoors.
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ami ... s-84662737
So......salty discharge. The same salt that was removed from the ocean.Associated Press
May 12, 2022
HUNTINGTON BEACH, Calif. -- A California coastal panel on Wednesday rejected a long-standing proposal to build a $1.4 billion seawater desalination plant to turn Pacific Ocean water into drinking water as the state grapples with persistent drought that is expected to worsen in coming years with climate change.
Poseidon’s long-running proposal was supported by Gov. Gavin Newsom but faced ardent opposition from environmentalists who said drawing in large amounts of ocean water and releasing salty discharge back into the ocean would kill billions of tiny marine organisms that make up the base of the food chain along a large swath of the coast.
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
Hey, I'm a big fan of RO's and desalination, but there is an issue with the high salt concentration being dumped back in. The ocean's not going to mix all that stuff back in perfectly, let alone immediately, so you're going to have localized areas (as the post says, along a large swath of the ocean) were the salinity is going to be significantly higher than what it would typically be. That's enough of an issue that the fish in that area are going to have a hard time living in it. With that said, environmentalists tend to block these things as a reflex as opposed to seeing how they could make it work. Eventually we're going to have to try.CAA Flagship wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:03 am https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ami ... s-84662737
So......salty discharge. The same salt that was removed from the ocean.Associated Press
May 12, 2022
HUNTINGTON BEACH, Calif. -- A California coastal panel on Wednesday rejected a long-standing proposal to build a $1.4 billion seawater desalination plant to turn Pacific Ocean water into drinking water as the state grapples with persistent drought that is expected to worsen in coming years with climate change.
Poseidon’s long-running proposal was supported by Gov. Gavin Newsom but faced ardent opposition from environmentalists who said drawing in large amounts of ocean water and releasing salty discharge back into the ocean would kill billions of tiny marine organisms that make up the base of the food chain along a large swath of the coast.
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
Golf courses should switch to drought resistant native vegetation and they'd use less. I'm a problem solver too.kalm wrote:900 homes uses 3-4 times the water that our golf course uses. Rationing needs to happen everywhere including homes, lawns, golf courses, commercial landscaping, etc.Pwns wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:48 pm Yeah, I don't remember the exact numbers but the amount of water that almond growers use is just staggering, and IIRC most of those get sent overseas.
One other thing and some here may not like me saying this, anyone who tells you the answer to this is that people need shower heads with timers on them and toilets that can't flush anything bigger than dog turds is FoS. Residential areas account for something like 6-8 percent of water use. It's pointless to try and squeeze much water usage out of regular people. Any politician putting these ideas forward is trying to give the appearance of doing something rather than making sure their donor pals in Ag and industry use their water more efficiently.
We can have seasonally firm, fast, and dry fairways and poop outdoors.
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
The industry has been pushing this for years. Not just marginal areas but rye/fescue fairways and greens in areas they work like Gamble Sands and Chambers Bay. You could drive carts across greens at GambleUNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:07 amGolf courses should switch to drought resistant native vegetation and they'd use less. I'm a problem solver too.kalm wrote:
900 homes uses 3-4 times the water that our golf course uses. Rationing needs to happen everywhere including homes, lawns, golf courses, commercial landscaping, etc.
We can have seasonally firm, fast, and dry fairways and poop outdoors.
I’m a problem solver.
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
6-8%.kalm wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:01 am900 homes uses 3-4 times the water that our golf course uses. Rationing needs to happen everywhere including homes, lawns, golf courses, commercial landscaping, etc.Pwns wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:48 pm
Yeah, I don't remember the exact numbers but the amount of water that almond growers use is just staggering, and IIRC most of those get sent overseas.
One other thing and some here may not like me saying this, anyone who tells you the answer to this is that people need shower heads with timers on them and toilets that can't flush anything bigger than dog turds is FoS. Residential areas account for something like 6-8 percent of water use. It's pointless to try and squeeze much water usage out of regular people. Any politician putting these ideas forward is trying to give the appearance of doing something rather than making sure their donor pals in Ag and industry use their water more efficiently.
We can have seasonally firm, fast, and dry fairways and poop outdoors.
I’m a problem solver.
What is it you want done for residential water use? Do you want to charge people more on their water bills (regressive)?
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
Was listening to a radio program the other day, and they talked about how while indoor conservation can help, it is not going to solve the issue.Pwns wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:48 pmYeah, I don't remember the exact numbers but the amount of water that almond growers use is just staggering, and IIRC most of those get sent overseas.dbackjon wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:58 pm
The one time I will say - fucking California.
The Compacts that Arizona signed to get the funding for the Central Arizona Project favored California in time of drought. California has failed to take meaningful drought action, especially for the big monied farmers in the Central Valley.
Arizona sold it's soul to get more water, financed by the Feds. Now it is paying the price. And can't totally blame California - the development/ag interests were so eager to get Colorado River water they were willing to sign away rights to the water in case of drought, knowing they would have already made their money and moved on.
One other thing and some here may not like me saying this, anyone who tells you the answer to this is that people need shower heads with timers on them and toilets that can't flush anything bigger than dog turds is FoS. Residential areas account for something like 6-8 percent of water use. It's pointless to try and squeeze much water usage out of regular people. Any politician putting these ideas forward is trying to give the appearance of doing something rather than making sure their donor pals in Ag and industry use their water more efficiently.
60% of residential use is outside (on average) for landscaping, etc. Every little bit helps indoors, and certain things like waterless urinals in public spaces can have a decent impact.
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
Swimming pools?dbackjon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:44 amWas listening to a radio program the other day, and they talked about how while indoor conservation can help, it is not going to solve the issue.Pwns wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:48 pm
Yeah, I don't remember the exact numbers but the amount of water that almond growers use is just staggering, and IIRC most of those get sent overseas.
One other thing and some here may not like me saying this, anyone who tells you the answer to this is that people need shower heads with timers on them and toilets that can't flush anything bigger than dog turds is FoS. Residential areas account for something like 6-8 percent of water use. It's pointless to try and squeeze much water usage out of regular people. Any politician putting these ideas forward is trying to give the appearance of doing something rather than making sure their donor pals in Ag and industry use their water more efficiently.
60% of residential use is outside (on average) for landscaping, etc. Every little bit helps indoors, and certain things like waterless urinals in public spaces can have a decent impact.
Xeriscape?
Golf courses?
Cemeteries?
Real grass lawns?
Aquariums?
Water in whisky?
We waste a shitload of water in this country/world. Yeah, some of it ends back up in ground water and such, but it doesn’t change the fact that to USE it we have to DRAW it from the groundwater.
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
Maybe there's some way we could combine the two?AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:31 pmSwimming pools?dbackjon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:44 am
Was listening to a radio program the other day, and they talked about how while indoor conservation can help, it is not going to solve the issue.
60% of residential use is outside (on average) for landscaping, etc. Every little bit helps indoors, and certain things like waterless urinals in public spaces can have a decent impact.
Xeriscape?
Golf courses?
Cemeteries?
Real grass lawns?
Aquariums?
Water in whisky?
We waste a shitload of water in this country/world. Yeah, some of it ends back up in ground water and such, but it doesn’t change the fact that to USE it we have to DRAW it from the groundwater.
Heard its been done before...
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Re: Southwest Water Crisis Thread
And people question his intelligence.houndawg wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:30 amMaybe there's some way we could combine the two?AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:31 pm
Swimming pools?
Xeriscape?
Golf courses?
Cemeteries?
Real grass lawns?
Aquariums?
Water in whisky?
We waste a shitload of water in this country/world. Yeah, some of it ends back up in ground water and such, but it doesn’t change the fact that to USE it we have to DRAW it from the groundwater.
Heard its been done before...
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"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12