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Gil Dobie wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 5:58 am A few complaints

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 6:50 pm Was Springfield asked if they could support 20,000 migrants?

UNI88 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 6:54 pm

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 6:50 pm Was Springfield asked if they could support 20,000 migrants?

If they're in the US legally, can Springfield deny them?

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 8:16 pm

UNI88 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 6:54 pm

If they're in the US legally, can Springfield deny them?

Was Springfield asked if they could support 20,000 people?

kalm wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 8:17 am

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 8:16 pm
Was Springfield asked if they could support 20,000 people?

Can they vote out the city officials that created the influx? As in democratically?

• Who would you ask? The Mayor? The city council? This isn't something that you have a referendum on and the people have a direct voice.
• Why would Springfield need to be asked if they could support 20,000 people? Was there a federal or state initiative to locate the Haitians in Springfield? If yes, then elected leaders should have been asked. If not and the people made their way there organically (because they had relatives there, heard of job opportunities there, etc.) Springfield can't really keep them out as long as they're obeying laws, building codes, etc.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 6:54 pm

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 6:50 pm Was Springfield asked if they could support 20,000 migrants?

If they're in the US legally, can Springfield deny them?

UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 9:58 am

kalm wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 8:17 am

Can they vote out the city officials that created the influx? As in democratically?

More relevant questions:

• Who would you ask? The Mayor? The city council? This isn't something that you have a referendum on and the people have a direct voice.
• Why would Springfield need to be asked if they could support 20,000 people? Was there a federal or state initiative to locate the Haitians in Springfield? If yes, then elected leaders should have been asked. If not and the people made their way there organically (because they had relatives there, heard of job opportunities there, etc.) Springfield can't really keep them out as long as they're obeying laws, building codes, etc.

My understanding is that the Haitians made their way there for job opportunities. WTF is wrong with people who are in the country legally going to where they can get jobs and support their families? Beats the sh!t out of staying where they were and expecting the government to provide for them. People should be celebrating their initiative.

BDKJMU wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 10:13 am

UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 9:58 am
More relevant questions:

• Who would you ask? The Mayor? The city council? This isn't something that you have a referendum on and the people have a direct voice.
• Why would Springfield need to be asked if they could support 20,000 people? Was there a federal or state initiative to locate the Haitians in Springfield? If yes, then elected leaders should have been asked. If not and the people made their way there organically (because they had relatives there, heard of job opportunities there, etc.) Springfield can't really keep them out as long as they're obeying laws, building codes, etc.

My understanding is that the Haitians made their way there for job opportunities. WTF is wrong with people who are in the country legally going to where they can get jobs and support their families? Beats the sh!t out of staying where they were and expecting the government to provide for them. People should be celebrating their initiative.

Have you listened to the testimony of citizens and officials there? You can’t dump 20k people from a 3rd world country in a short period of time into a community of 40k and expect the community to just be able to absorb them. Besides the ginormous cultural clash (don’t speak English, don’t know our laws, different cultural norms) it causes HUGE resource problems. Heck just 2k all at once in a community that size would be a big problem.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 10:22 am

BDKJMU wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 10:13 am
Have you listened to the testimony of citizens and officials there? You can’t dump 20k people from a 3rd world country in a short period of time into a community of 40k and expect the community to just be able to absorb them. Besides the ginormous cultural clash (don’t speak English, don’t know our laws, different cultural norms) it causes HUGE resource problems. Heck just 2k all at once in a community that size would be a big problem.

I don't disagree but you complain about immigrants and others being on the public dole rather than taking steps to support themselves. These Haitians have taken steps to support themselves and now you're complaining about their impact on the local community.

Given a binary choice, what would you have liked them to do:
1) Stay where they were, dependent on government handouts?
2) Move somewhere for jobs where they could support themselves and their families?

MAQA yahoos like to complain, now is your chance to offer a solution (or at least the concepts of a plan):
- What should the Haitians have done?
- What should the federal, state and local governments have done (and returning them to Haiti isn't an option)?

Some of the MAQA yahoo bitching and moaning sounds very similar to what was said about German, Irish, Italian, Chinese, etc. immigrants over the last 100+ years.

BDKJMU wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 10:42 am

UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 10:22 am
I don't disagree but you complain about immigrants and others being on the public dole rather than taking steps to support themselves. These Haitians have taken steps to support themselves and now you're complaining about their impact on the local community.

Given a binary choice, what would you have liked them to do:
1) Stay where they were in the US, dependent on government handouts?
2) Move somewhere for jobs where they could support themselves and their families?

MAQA yahoos like to complain, now is your chance to offer a solution (or at least the concepts of a plan):
- What should the Haitians have done?
- What should the federal, state and local governments have done (and returning them to Haiti isn't an option)?

Some of the MAQA yahoo bitching and moaning sounds very similar to what was said about German, Irish, Italian, Chinese, etc. immigrants over the last 100+ years.

Yes. In Haiti.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 10:55 am

BDKJMU wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 10:42 am
Yes. In Haiti.

That's water under the bridge so you're just ducking the question. I'll ask again more clearly. Given a binary choice, what would you have liked them to do:
1) Stay where they were in the US, dependent on government handouts?
2) Move somewhere for jobs where they could support themselves and their families?

kalm wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 8:17 am

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 8:16 pm

Was Springfield asked if they could support 20,000 people?

Can they vote out the city officials that created the influx? As in democratically?

UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 10:22 am

BDKJMU wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 10:13 am
Have you listened to the testimony of citizens and officials there? You can’t dump 20k people from a 3rd world country in a short period of time into a community of 40k and expect the community to just be able to absorb them. Besides the ginormous cultural clash (don’t speak English, don’t know our laws, different cultural norms) it causes HUGE resource problems. Heck just 2k all at once in a community that size would be a big problem.

I don't disagree but you complain about immigrants and others being on the public dole rather than taking steps to support themselves. These Haitians have taken steps to support themselves and now you're complaining about their impact on the local community.

Given a binary choice, what would you have liked them to do:
1) Stay where they were in the US, dependent on government handouts?
2) Move somewhere for jobs where they could support themselves and their families?

MAQA yahoos like to complain, now is your chance to offer a solution (or at least the concepts of a plan):
- What should the Haitians have done?
- What should the federal, state and local governments have done (and returning them to Haiti isn't an option)?

Some of the MAQA yahoo bitching and moaning sounds very similar to what was said about German, Irish, Italian, Chinese, etc. immigrants over the last 100+ years.

houndawg wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 11:24 am

UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 10:22 am

I don't disagree but you complain about immigrants and others being on the public dole rather than taking steps to support themselves. These Haitians have taken steps to support themselves and now you're complaining about their impact on the local community.

Given a binary choice, what would you have liked them to do:
1) Stay where they were in the US, dependent on government handouts?
2) Move somewhere for jobs where they could support themselves and their families?

MAQA yahoos like to complain, now is your chance to offer a solution (or at least the concepts of a plan):
- What should the Haitians have done?
- What should the federal, state and local governments have done (and returning them to Haiti isn't an option)?

Some of the MAQA yahoo bitching and moaning sounds very similar to what was said about German, Irish, Italian, Chinese, etc. immigrants over the last 100+ years.

Schrodinger's Hatians: simultaneously draining the public dole and taking all our jobs

BDKJMU wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 11:09 am

UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 10:55 am

That's water under the bridge so you're just ducking the question. I'll ask again more clearly. Given a binary choice, what would you have liked them to do:
1) Stay where they were in the US, dependent on government handouts?
2) Move somewhere for jobs where they could support themselves and their families?

Not when most of them crossed illegally..

In a community of 40k I doubt all of a sudden there were jobs to support 20k more.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 9:58 am

kalm wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 8:17 am

Can they vote out the city officials that created the influx? As in democratically?

More relevant questions:

• Who would you ask? The Mayor? The city council? This isn't something that you have a referendum on and the people have a direct voice.
• Why would Springfield need to be asked if they could support 20,000 people? Was there a federal or state initiative to locate the Haitians in Springfield? If yes, then elected leaders should have been asked. If not and the people made their way there organically (because they had relatives there, heard of job opportunities there, etc.) Springfield can't really keep them out as long as they're obeying laws, building codes, etc.

My understanding is that the Haitians made their way there for job opportunities. WTF is wrong with people who are in the country legally going to where they can get jobs and support their families? Beats the sh!t out of staying where they were and expecting the government to provide for them. People should be celebrating their initiative.

∞∞∞ wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 4:31 am From my understanding, Springfield had been losing its population for decades and local businesses (especially manufacturing) couldn't find people to do jobs. Additionally, no one is moving in from elsewhere to fill those jobs.

Legal immigrants (mostly Haitian) filled those positions up. If that didn't happen, the alternative would've been for manufacturers to pack up and leave...which is something that killed small cities all across America.

If Americans don't want to work those jobs, I don't know what you expect?

Springfield was another dying mid-west city and you can argue Haitians revived its chances (or at worst, delayed its demise).

Caribbean Hen wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 4:35 am

∞∞∞ wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 4:31 am From my understanding, Springfield had been losing its population for decades and local businesses (especially manufacturing) couldn't find people to do jobs. Additionally, no one is moving in from elsewhere to fill those jobs.

Legal immigrants (mostly Haitian) filled those positions up. If that didn't happen, the alternative would've been for manufacturers to pack up and leave...which is something that killed small cities all across America.

If Americans don't want to work those jobs, I don't know what you expect?

Springfield was another dying mid-west city and you can argue Haitians revived its chances (or at worst, delayed its demise).

How did you come to that understanding?

In many ways, Springfield is a typical Midwestern story. The auto industry was once the backbone of this city.

“My grandfather worked there, my father, my husband’s father," says Wittenberg University economics Professor Rachel Wilson, a third-generation Springfielder herself.

As the industry shrunk, Springfield’s population declined precipitously. “It was a very slow, slow death," says Wilson. “The wind has been knocked out of the sail here.”

Around 2020, things in this town took an unexpected turn. Thousands of Haitian migrants, fleeing violence and poverty, landed in Springfield. Locals say it felt like it happened overnight. On Sunday afternoons, you could suddenly hear Creole mass wafting through downtown streets. Haitian restaurants started popping up...


...“I think this whole notion of migrants taking American jobs is hogwash," says Jamie McGregor, the CEO of the McGregor Metal plant here. "That's spoken like a true person that has never made a payroll or tried to, you know, run a business.”

He beams with pride telling his own family’s story: they arrived in Springfield some 165 years ago and started working in the flower business. “You know, my family was once an immigrant, says McGregor. “And so I wonder how they were accepted.”

As he shows us through the plant, McGregor talks about Springfield’s history. He says the term "rust belt" doesn’t offend him — he just thinks it leaves a lot out. The McGregor Metal Plant produces steel parts and welded assemblies for the auto, agriculture and other industries. He employs over 300 people. Business is good.

But it hasn’t always been easy. “Coming out of the pandemic, you know, the economy roared and demand was outpacing what we could produce.” McGregor says the company was profoundly affected by labor shortages, and some 30 new Haitian workers were vital to filling the gap.

“I mean, the fact of the matter is, without the Haitian associates that we have, we had trouble filling these positions.”...


...The accusation that immigrants are hurting American workers is hardly a new one. It’s also one that economists tend to disagree with. “On net, immigration is good for an economy," says economics professor Wilson. “Because they [immigrants] are creating their own demand. They don't live in a vacuum. They want houses, they want groceries, they want cars, they want cell phones. They're demanding goods and services.

The city, she says, is at a crossroads. “We desperately need population. For economic growth, you need population growth, and increases in productivity.”

This immigration boom, she says, could be exactly what Springfield needs.

“It will be good in the long run for our economy. It's just this transition period that I hope we can make it through. Can we make it through to the other side, to the benefits?"