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http://www.abc4.com/news/local/story/Go ... Tw3UQ.cspx

Governor Jon M. Huntsman Jr. will resign and accept an appointment as ambassador to China, ABC 4 has confirmed.

The official announcement came during a press conference held by President Obama Saturday morning at the White House in the Diplomatic Room.

President Obama asked the people of Utah to forgive him for taking their
Governor but called the China ambassadorship a job, "as important as any
in the world."

... well then.

that takes one serious contender out of the race for Pres (more than likely)

What an idiot.

Well done Obama......and an indication that most legitimate moderate Republican politicians & supporters (ie; Republicans with common sense and conservative values) want nothing to do with the current Rep party's direction on social absolutes and catering to the lowest common denominator....

I was shocked to hear that...

Appaholic wrote:Well done Obama......and an indication that most legitimate moderate Republican politicians & supporters (ie; Republicans with common sense and conservative values) want nothing to do with the current Rep party's direction on social absolutes and catering to the lowest common denominator....

Nothing wrong with conservative social values, or with nonconservative social values. The problem is when any party or religion (e.g., the "progressive" religion) tries to cram their social values down everyone else's throats through egregious public policies.

Can you name an egregious "socially conservative" policy advocated by the social conservatives you disparage, or implemented by the (non-conservative) Bush administration?

"Lowest common denominator?!???" ...and what would that be?!??

native wrote:

Appaholic wrote:Well done Obama......and an indication that most legitimate moderate Republican politicians & supporters (ie; Republicans with common sense and conservative values) want nothing to do with the current Rep party's direction on social absolutes and catering to the lowest common denominator....

Nothing wrong with conservative social values, or with nonconservative social values. The problem is when any party or religion (e.g., the "progressive" religion) tries to cram their social values down everyone else's throats through egregious public policies.

Can you name an egregious "socially conservative" policy advocated by the social conservatives you disparage, or implemented by the (non-conservative) Bush administration?

"Lowest common denominator?!???" ...and what would that be?!??

The continued ban on gay marriage for one and the continued assault on personal liberty for another (ie; overturn RoevWade, federal enforcement of marijuana laws in states that have approved their medicianl use).....I agree, there is nothing wrong with socially conservative values until you try to mandate them to all of society....the lowest common denominator I speak about is playing upon the ignorant's prejudices and fears to foment hatred against certain groups of folks....

Appaholic wrote:

native wrote:
Nothing wrong with conservative social values, or with nonconservative social values. The problem is when any party or religion (e.g., the "progressive" religion) tries to cram their social values down everyone else's throats through egregious public policies.

Can you name an egregious "socially conservative" policy advocated by the social conservatives you disparage, or implemented by the (non-conservative) Bush administration?

"Lowest common denominator?!???" ...and what would that be?!??

The continued ban on gay marriage for one and the continued assault on personal liberty for another (ie; overturn RoevWade, federal enforcement of marijuana laws in states that have approved their medicianl use).....I agree, there is nothing wrong with socially conservative values until you try to mandate them to all of society....the lowest common denominator I speak about is playing upon the ignorant's prejudices and fears to foment hatred against certain groups of folks....

The demonization of Christians, demonization of free enterprise, demonization of private property, redistribution of wealth, socialized medicine, and multi-pronged assaults on the Constitution are each far more egregious than the the sum of complaints you mentioned, and ultimately pose far greater threats to personal liberty.

native wrote:

Appaholic wrote:
The continued ban on gay marriage for one and the continued assault on personal liberty for another (ie; overturn RoevWade, federal enforcement of marijuana laws in states that have approved their medicianl use).....I agree, there is nothing wrong with socially conservative values until you try to mandate them to all of society....the lowest common denominator I speak about is playing upon the ignorant's prejudices and fears to foment hatred against certain groups of folks....

The demonization of Christians, demonization of free enterprise, demonization of private property, redistribution of wealth, socialized medicine, and multi-pronged assaults on the Constitution are each far more egregious than the the sum of complaints you mentioned, and ultimately pose far greater threats to personal liberty.

Really????

Why are Christians more important then any other religion. Is it because you are one? free enterprise isn't going anywhere in fact entrepreneurship is at an all time high. I didn't know making medicine more affordable was bad.

And where is the Constitution being attacked? The fact that assault weapons shouldn't be owned? Give me a reason you need one. The Conks attacked our freedom too by using the Patriot Act.

Give me a break and get out your narrow minded Conk views. Open you mind to both sides and forget about political parties. There is not a problem with having personal beliefs but don't ignore problems within your own party as well.

I sick of the Conk and Donk mindsets.

native wrote:

Appaholic wrote:
The continued ban on gay marriage for one and the continued assault on personal liberty for another (ie; overturn RoevWade, federal enforcement of marijuana laws in states that have approved their medicianl use).....I agree, there is nothing wrong with socially conservative values until you try to mandate them to all of society....the lowest common denominator I speak about is playing upon the ignorant's prejudices and fears to foment hatred against certain groups of folks....

The demonization of Christians, demonization of free enterprise, demonization of private property, redistribution of wealth, socialized medicine, and multi-pronged assaults on the Constitution are each far more egregious than the the sum of complaints you mentioned, and ultimately pose far greater threats to personal liberty.

"Demonization of Christians" - In God We Trust, vocal Christians demonizing current freedoms they don't agree with while campaigning for continued refussal of freedoms all other groups enjoy...

"demonization of free enterprise" - what free enterprise? the free enterprise that said banks were too big to fail and required an injection of cash? or the free enterprise that allows unfettered logging of national forests at below market prices enabled through taxpayer-subsidized logging access roads....

"demonization of private property" - the same private propety rights that created the national forests when government stpped in to purchase the scarred tracts of forest left behind after timber barons made their money? And the same private property rights that allow coal mines to blow the tops off of mountains to get the coal seams as a cheaper alternative to hiring more coal workers and tunneling in to the coal seams?

"redistribution of wealth" - you mean the taxpayer wealth re-distributed to the financial houses on Wall Street? or the future wealth that's gonna need to be re-distributed to pay for this goddam war....

"socialized medicine" - agree, would hate to see this pass....

"multi-pronged assaults on the Constitution" - what was the Patriot Act? TIPS program? warrantless wire-tapping? free-speech zones?

slycat wrote:

native wrote:
The demonization of Christians, demonization of free enterprise, demonization of private property, redistribution of wealth, socialized medicine, and multi-pronged assaults on the Constitution are each far more egregious than the the sum of complaints you mentioned, and ultimately pose far greater threats to personal liberty.

Really????

Why are Christians more important then any other religion. Is it because you are one? free enterprise isn't going anywhere in fact entrepreneurship is at an all time high. I didn't know making medicine more affordable was bad.

And where is the Constitution being attacked? The fact that assault weapons shouldn't be owned? Give me a reason you need one. The Conks attacked our freedom too by using the Patriot Act.

Give me a break and get out your narrow minded Conk views. Open you mind to both sides and forget about political parties. There is not a problem with having personal beliefs but don't ignore problems within your own party as well.

I sick of the Conk and Donk mindsets.

Well stated Slycat....

slycat wrote:

native wrote:
The demonization of Christians, demonization of free enterprise, demonization of private property, redistribution of wealth, socialized medicine, and multi-pronged assaults on the Constitution are each far more egregious than the the sum of complaints you mentioned, and ultimately pose far greater threats to personal liberty.

Really????

Why are Christians more important then any other religion. Is it because you are one? free enterprise isn't going anywhere in fact entrepreneurship is at an all time high. I didn't know making medicine more affordable was bad.

And where is the Constitution being attacked? The fact that assault weapons shouldn't be owned? Give me a reason you need one. The Conks attacked our freedom too by using the Patriot Act.

Give me a break and get out your narrow minded Conk views. Open you mind to both sides and forget about political parties. There is not a problem with having personal beliefs but don't ignore problems within your own party as well.

I sick of the Conk and Donk mindsets.

I did not make the claim that Christians are more important than any other religion - you did. My claim is that it is clear that Christians are being demonized by the left.

However, you do not have to be a conk to acknowledge that the founding fathers were either Christians or deists, and that they constantly referred to God, faith and Providence in their speeches and writings.

The Constituion, if preserved, would have been the best possible guarantor of liberty and opportunity for all citizens. Democrat assaults include redistribution of wealth, threatened tax retribution against specific entities, deliberate abrogation of bankruptcy law guaranteed in the Constitution to provide political payoff to the UAW in the case of the Chrysler bailout, numerous assaults on the second amendment, failure to abide by Article II, numeros assaults on the 10th amendment.

All are clear and present dangers to the Constitution.

The Patriot Act is now a "sin" shared by Obama and the donks.

native wrote:

slycat wrote:
Really????

Why are Christians more important then any other religion. Is it because you are one? free enterprise isn't going anywhere in fact entrepreneurship is at an all time high. I didn't know making medicine more affordable was bad.

And where is the Constitution being attacked? The fact that assault weapons shouldn't be owned? Give me a reason you need one. The Conks attacked our freedom too by using the Patriot Act.

Give me a break and get out your narrow minded Conk views. Open you mind to both sides and forget about political parties. There is not a problem with having personal beliefs but don't ignore problems within your own party as well.

I sick of the Conk and Donk mindsets.

I did not make the claim that Christians are more important than any other religion - you did. My claim is that it is clear that Christians are being demonized by the left.

However, you do not have to be a conk to acknowledge that the founding fathers were either Christians or deists, and that they constantly referred to God, faith and Providence in their speeches and writings.

The Constituion, if preserved, would have been the best possible guarantor of liberty and opportunity for all citizens. Democrat assaults include redistribution of wealth, threatened tax retribution against specific entities, deliberate abrogation of bankruptcy law guaranteed in the Constitution to provide political payoff to the UAW in the case of the Chrysler bailout, numerous assaults on the second amendment, failure to abide by Article II, numeros assaults on the 10th amendment.

All are clear and present dangers to the Constitution.

The Patriot Act is now a "sin" shared by Obama and the donks.

I would like to think it is the Christian's repeated attempts impose their belief's via school's and tax codes that the left is demonizing - a charge that can be leveled as well at the left as you pointed out - more than the Christian's themselves....perhaps that is giving the left too much credit. However, the assaults to the Constitution you list above are clear and present dangers.....just as much so as the assaults on the Constitution and personal freedom being perpetrated by the social conservatives on the right.....neither party can claim moral superiority on Constitutional integrity....

Appaholic wrote:

native wrote:
I did not make the claim that Christians are more important than any other religion - you did. My claim is that it is clear that Christians are being demonized by the left.

However, you do not have to be a conk to acknowledge that the founding fathers were either Christians or deists, and that they constantly referred to God, faith and Providence in their speeches and writings.

The Constituion, if preserved, would have been the best possible guarantor of liberty and opportunity for all citizens. Democrat assaults include redistribution of wealth, threatened tax retribution against specific entities, deliberate abrogation of bankruptcy law guaranteed in the Constitution to provide political payoff to the UAW in the case of the Chrysler bailout, numerous assaults on the second amendment, failure to abide by Article II, numeros assaults on the 10th amendment.

All are clear and present dangers to the Constitution.

The Patriot Act is now a "sin" shared by Obama and the donks.

I would like to think it is the Christian's repeated attempts impose their belief's via school's and tax codes that the left is demonizing - a charge that can be leveled as well at the left as you pointed out - more than the Christian's themselves....perhaps that is giving the left too much credit. However, the assaults to the Constitution you list above are clear and present dangers.....just as much so as the assaults on the Constitution and personal freedom being perpetrated by the social conservatives on the right.....neither party can claim moral superiority on Constitutional integrity....

Your post so far is pretty thin gruel in attempting to make an argument that both sides are equally guilty of assaults on the Constitution.

If every dingbat school idea proposed by Christians over the past twenty years had been implemented it still wouldn't have done as much damage as the NEA.

You're starting to fall into a convenient but invalid "moral equivalence" trap.

native wrote:

Appaholic wrote:
I would like to think it is the Christian's repeated attempts impose their belief's via school's and tax codes that the left is demonizing - a charge that can be leveled as well at the left as you pointed out - more than the Christian's themselves....perhaps that is giving the left too much credit. However, the assaults to the Constitution you list above are clear and present dangers.....just as much so as the assaults on the Constitution and personal freedom being perpetrated by the social conservatives on the right.....neither party can claim moral superiority on Constitutional integrity....

Your post so far is pretty thin gruel in attempting to make an argument that both sides are equally guilty of assaults on the Constitution.

If every dingbat school idea proposed by Christians over the past twenty years had been implemented it still wouldn't have done as much damage as the NEA.

You're starting to fall into a convenient but invalid "moral equivalence" trap.

Speaking of thin gruel, there is the tried-and-true "my rights are more important than yours" slop the parties are known for....an assault on any rights or freedoms protected in the constitution is an assault on all of the constitution....I understand why an apologist for the Republican's previous 8-yr fiasco might have a hard time comprehending that....BTW, I think the NEA sucks as well....but then again, so does the DEA......

native wrote:

slycat wrote:
Really????

Why are Christians more important then any other religion. Is it because you are one? free enterprise isn't going anywhere in fact entrepreneurship is at an all time high. I didn't know making medicine more affordable was bad.

And where is the Constitution being attacked? The fact that assault weapons shouldn't be owned? Give me a reason you need one. The Conks attacked our freedom too by using the Patriot Act.

Give me a break and get out your narrow minded Conk views. Open you mind to both sides and forget about political parties. There is not a problem with having personal beliefs but don't ignore problems within your own party as well.

I sick of the Conk and Donk mindsets.

I did not make the claim that Christians are more important than any other religion - you did. My claim is that it is clear that Christians are being demonized by the left.

However, you do not have to be a conk to acknowledge that the founding fathers were either Christians or deists, and that they constantly referred to God, faith and Providence in their speeches and writings.

The Constituion, if preserved, would have been the best possible guarantor of liberty and opportunity for all citizens. Democrat assaults include redistribution of wealth, threatened tax retribution against specific entities, deliberate abrogation of bankruptcy law guaranteed in the Constitution to provide political payoff to the UAW in the case of the Chrysler bailout, numerous assaults on the second amendment, failure to abide by Article II, numeros assaults on the 10th amendment.

All are clear and present dangers to the Constitution.

The Patriot Act is now a "sin" shared by Obama and the donks.

I only point out the Christian issue as App did. It is being forced as THE religion of the US even though we have a freedom to choose religion. I am well aware that our fore fathers were Christian and put it every where they could. Which again seems to be against the idea of religious freedom.

Once again how is the 2nd amendment being threatened? Besides from tries to curb automatic weapons and better tracking (fingerprinting) it seems nothing else has changed.

Everybody knows the middle class is the backbone of a stable economy. I think there should be a flat tax though.

The bailouts have gone too far. GM and Chrysler need to go under and move on. I agree with bailing out the banks though.

And yes the Patriot Act needs to be removed.

Appaholic wrote:

native wrote:
Your post so far is pretty thin gruel in attempting to make an argument that both sides are equally guilty of assaults on the Constitution.

If every dingbat school idea proposed by Christians over the past twenty years had been implemented it still wouldn't have done as much damage as the NEA.

You're starting to fall into a convenient but invalid "moral equivalence" trap.

Speaking of thin gruel, there is the tried-and-true "my rights are more important than yours" slop the parties are known for....an assault on any rights or freedoms protected in the constitution is an assault on all of the constitution....I understand why an apologist for the Republican's previous 8-yr fiasco might have a hard time comprehending that....BTW, I think the NEA sucks as well....but then again, so does the DEA......

There you go again down that moral equivalency rat hole, Appy. Constitutional integrity is not a tit for tat partisan power play. Rather, a robust and uncorrupted Constitution allows the political tit for tat to balance itself out in the legislative arena and among the states, so that the damage to the public and the republic is limited. I will survive and prosper regardless of Democrat and Republican fvckvps, and so will you, so why should we care? My Constitutional concerns are for the long term viability of liberty, free enterprise and a civil society.

native wrote:

Appaholic wrote:
Speaking of thin gruel, there is the tried-and-true "my rights are more important than yours" slop the parties are known for....an assault on any rights or freedoms protected in the constitution is an assault on all of the constitution....I understand why an apologist for the Republican's previous 8-yr fiasco might have a hard time comprehending that....BTW, I think the NEA sucks as well....but then again, so does the DEA......

There you go again down that moral equivalency rat hole, Appy. Constitutional integrity is not a tit for tat partisan power play. Rather, a robust and uncorrupted Constitution allows the political tit for tat to balance itself out in the legislative arena and among the states, so that the damage to the public and the republic is limited. I will survive and prosper regardless of Democrat and Republican fvckvps, and so will you, so why should we care? My Constitutional concerns are for the long term viability of liberty, free enterprise and a civil society.

Actually, a tit for tat power play is exactly what it has become. If it weren't, the gun freaks would be paying as much attention to the 4th ammendment as to the 2nd.

native wrote:

Appaholic wrote:
Speaking of thin gruel, there is the tried-and-true "my rights are more important than yours" slop the parties are known for....an assault on any rights or freedoms protected in the constitution is an assault on all of the constitution....I understand why an apologist for the Republican's previous 8-yr fiasco might have a hard time comprehending that....BTW, I think the NEA sucks as well....but then again, so does the DEA......

There you go again down that moral equivalency rat hole, Appy. Constitutional integrity is not a tit for tat partisan power play. Rather, a robust and uncorrupted Constitution allows the political tit for tat to balance itself out in the legislative arena and among the states, so that the damage to the public and the republic is limited. I will survive and prosper regardless of Democrat and Republican fvckvps, and so will you, so why should we care? My Constitutional concerns are for the long term viability of liberty, free enterprise and a civil society.

Why is my argument ("an assault on any constitutional right is an assault on the constitution itself") a moral equivalency rat-hole, but your argument ("dems have assaulted the constitutional rights worse than republicans") a concern for long-term viability, free enterprise and a civil society? Based upon our statements, I would say the reverse....what am I missing? Are we arguing the same point?

native wrote:

slycat wrote:
Really????

Why are Christians more important then any other religion. Is it because you are one? free enterprise isn't going anywhere in fact entrepreneurship is at an all time high. I didn't know making medicine more affordable was bad.

And where is the Constitution being attacked? The fact that assault weapons shouldn't be owned? Give me a reason you need one. The Conks attacked our freedom too by using the Patriot Act.

Give me a break and get out your narrow minded Conk views. Open you mind to both sides and forget about political parties. There is not a problem with having personal beliefs but don't ignore problems within your own party as well.

I sick of the Conk and Donk mindsets.

I did not make the claim that Christians are more important than any other religion - you did. My claim is that it is clear that Christians are being demonized by the left.

Bullshit, give us some examples.SMFH