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Cap'n Cat wrote:

native wrote:
What kind of assistance would we have provided to Ho? Help him assassinate his political opponents? Help him execute 50,000 of his own people as part of an "agrarian reform" effort, and imprison 50k to 100k more? Help him establish a communist workers paradise? Pay his travel expenses to the PRC?

What do you think you know about Ho Chi Minh?

May you be blessed to live in the type of communist regime (Ho Chi Minh's pre-1970's North Vietnam) you are so anxious to defend.

Do you have a clue how many innocent civilians (non-combatants) have been executed by communist regimes in Southeast Asia, including both pre-war and post-war Vietnam?

Do innocent civilians matter to you?

Jesus....communists, civilians. Here we go.

STFU, Junior. I've forgotten more than you'll ever know about that conflict. Do yourself and us a favor and pick up a book about it that is more than 50 pages, and, this time, read it and not stare at that beaver pic of the little naked girl runnin' from the napalm bomb your Uncle Bernie dropped on her school, then come here regurgitating what your drunk Conk dad said at the dinner table once when you were ten, just before he bitch-slapped your mom for her "not-in-front-of-the-kids-Harold" remark, you dork. Know the complete background before you post again here, you superficial headline-reading Conk ****.



And while you're worried about innocent civilians, you full baby's diaper dickhead, count up the millions of civilians dead at the hands of America's, AHEM, finest.

God, that felt good. I hate mewling Conk **** who don't know the full story on ****.

travelinman67 wrote:

Cap'n Cat wrote:

Hey, dicknose. Ho Chi Minh begged for help from Roosevelt and was ignored. Ho couldn't figure out why a country with a history of oppression from an overlord, such as we had, would abandon another country finding itself in the same straights. And he was 100% right.

Our war against the North Vietnamese was more than 100% race-based.

**** off.

Oh, horsecrap, Communist Cat. We were drug into the Indochina War when France let that little class genocidal maniac attempt to create and independent communist republic. Minh petitioned Truman, not Roosevelt, and it was Truman's refusal to acknowledge Minh and his petition which ultimately sealed the U.S.'s fate and drew us into the conflict.
Minh was a 100% Stalinist/Maoist communist, and followed their footsteps in perpetuity by butchering all the Vietnamese landowners/wealthy and "re-patrioting" their land and assets.

The atrocities committed by communist leaders attempting to further their agenda make all democratic/capitalist nation's wrongs pale in comparison.

But I understand FACTS rarely play a role in your opinions.

Appaholic wrote:

native wrote:
Well crafted post, Appy, but as you know, freedom isn't free and cannot be maintained without sacrifice.

Whether or not the particular sacrifice is or is not on your list of approved sacrifices, the value of the willingness to sacrifice and the effort to maintain the faith under extreme duress is priceless. Unfortunately, it takes thousands and thousands of such sacrifices, even though some may, in hindsight, be misdirected.

My family members who spent years in communist prison camps in SE Asia may disagree with your characterization of our efforts there.

As well they should given their experiences....no one likes to be told their efforts were in vain.....and freedom isn't free, but I'm finding more serious threats to our freedoms from our own shores, not those in SE Asia, Middle East, etc.....I admire their sacrifice, however misguided it may have been after the fact, but let's get some levity and clarity on what they were truly sacrificing for, not the company line sold as a bill of goods wrapped in the American flag.....

native wrote:Someone requested us not to get off topic in one of the Pelosi threads, so here is a new thread on the subject of democide. The subject in this particular post of democide by the Vietnamese communists.

Professor R.J. Rummel is the leading researcher into "democide," which he defines as "the murder of any person or people by a government, including genocide, politicide, and mass murder." (Wikipedia)

Cap'n Cat wrote:
Jesus....communists, civilians. Here we go.

STFU, Junior. I've forgotten more than you'll ever know about that conflict. Do yourself and us a favor and pick up a book about it that is more than 50 pages, and, this time, read it and not stare at that beaver pic of the little naked girl runnin' from the napalm bomb your Uncle Bernie dropped on her school, then come here regurgitating what your drunk Conk dad said at the dinner table once when you were ten, just before he bitch-slapped your mom for her "not-in-front-of-the-kids-Harold" remark, you dork. Know the complete background before you post again here, you superficial headline-reading Conk ****.



And while you're worried about innocent civilians, you full baby's diaper dickhead, count up the millions of civilians dead at the hands of America's, AHEM, finest.

God, that felt good. I hate mewling Conk **** who don't know the full story on ****.

My dad never said much about Vietnam. He was from an earlier era. But my library covers most of the eras from Ho Chi Minh's earliest years through the post war era.

The "millions" of innocents you claim were killed by the U.S. in Vietnam is a lie, Cap,n Cat. Cowboy up.

The U.S. has made plenty of mistakes, including as many as 6,000 civilian casualties of our bombing campaigns in Vietnam and atrocities such as 500 killed at My Lai. But over the course of our history we have saved more than we have killed, as demonstrated by the million or so of the best and brightest who escaped Vietnam and immigrated to the United States after the war. More have died from our cowardly negligence in abandoning allies than by commission of atrocities.

Our mistakes pale in comparison to the deliberate murder of civilians committed by our enemies. The Vietnam War is a case in point. 95% of the civilian deaths occurred at the hands of the communists. The other 5% includes the U.S. and our RVN ally.

Everyone has seen the picture of the little girl running down the road after getting napalmed. Have you also seen the picture of the dozens of schoolteachers lined up and executed by the North Vietnamese after capturing Hue City? They were among the 2,800 to 6,000 civilians executed by the communists during the short weeks of occupation by the North in 1968. Roughly 95% of the killing of civilians conducted during the war was done by the communists.

After the war, the Vietnamese communists executed 60,000 prisoners after the war. Admittedly these were combatants. Therefore they do not count against the 1.67 million innocent civilians murdered by the communists AFTER the end of the war in 1975.

For Cap'n Cat: First you established that homework is not your forte. Now you have confirmed that math is not your bag, either. Reading matters. Math matters. Homework matters. People matter. Democide matters. If you wish to open you pie hole and make noise, first you should learn to read and to count.

Cap'n Cat, I wish you peace from whatever demons persecute you. Lying to yourself and making a fool of yourself will not make the demons go away.

If we really care about people, then we must force ourselves to read and to count.

Suggested references:
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP6.HTM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide
http://markhumphrys.com/communism.asia.html#democide

native wrote:

Appaholic wrote:
As well they should given their experiences....no one likes to be told their efforts were in vain.....and freedom isn't free, but I'm finding more serious threats to our freedoms from our own shores, not those in SE Asia, Middle East, etc.....I admire their sacrifice, however misguided it may have been after the fact, but let's get some levity and clarity on what they were truly sacrificing for, not the company line sold as a bill of goods wrapped in the American flag.....

You are too smart for either the simple solutions you disparage or the simple solutions you espouse, Appy.

The gravest threat to liberty and opportunity for Americans is clearly from our own shores today, but you must ask yourself a few questions about yesterday. To start:

1. Was it in the self interest of the United States to win the Cold War, and

2. To what extent did the Vietnam War contribute to the overall victory in the Cold War?

Appaholic wrote:

native wrote:
You are too smart for either the simple solutions you disparage or the simple solutions you espouse, Appy.

The gravest threat to liberty and opportunity for Americans is clearly from our own shores today, but you must ask yourself a few questions about yesterday. To start:

1. Was it in the self interest of the United States to win the Cold War, and

2. To what extent did the Vietnam War contribute to the overall victory in the Cold War?

So, if I'm reading this correctly, any simple solution I either disparage or espouse is incorrect........unless it coincides with your belief system I guess.....thanks for the clarification of how the party you seem to be an apologist for continues to lose the support of the average American citizen. I'm sorry your family members spent time in a POW camp for essentially attempting to make Vietnam safe enough for American corporations to invest in and to protect our right to watch American Idol.....

Appaholic wrote:

native wrote:
You are too smart for either the simple solutions you disparage or the simple solutions you espouse, Appy.

The gravest threat to liberty and opportunity for Americans is clearly from our own shores today, but you must ask yourself a few questions about yesterday. To start:

1. Was it in the self interest of the United States to win the Cold War, and

2. To what extent did the Vietnam War contribute to the overall victory in the Cold War?

So, if I'm reading this correctly, any simple solution I either disparage or espouse is incorrect........unless it coincides with your belief system I guess.....thanks for the clarification of how the party you seem to be an apologist for continues to lose the support of the average American citizen. I'm sorry your family members spent time in a POW camp for essentially attempting to make Vietnam safe enough for American corporations to invest in and to protect our right to watch American Idol.....

native wrote:

Appaholic wrote:
So, if I'm reading this correctly, any simple solution I either disparage or espouse is incorrect........unless it coincides with your belief system I guess.....thanks for the clarification of how the party you seem to be an apologist for continues to lose the support of the average American citizen. I'm sorry your family members spent time in a POW camp for essentially attempting to make Vietnam safe enough for American corporations to invest in and to protect our right to watch American Idol.....

Nope! Incorrect! Disparage away! Just tell me why in more than a one liner.

Although I don't expect anything useful or intelligent from Cap'n Cat, I expect a better analysis from you, Appy. Or for that matter, from such as Cleets, Twin Cities or DBJon, if I can manage not to offend them.

Hell, it gets boring agreeing with my compatriots all the time, and tiresome to piss on someone else's leg. I would rather be challenged by someone with intelligence and intellectual honesty.

You have demonstrated a deeper and more intellectually honest understanding of issues than the simple solutions you espouse on this particular thread. Isn't this issue worth digging a bit deeper?

native wrote:

Appaholic wrote:
So, if I'm reading this correctly, any simple solution I either disparage or espouse is incorrect........unless it coincides with your belief system I guess.....thanks for the clarification of how the party you seem to be an apologist for continues to lose the support of the average American citizen. I'm sorry your family members spent time in a POW camp for essentially attempting to make Vietnam safe enough for American corporations to invest in and to protect our right to watch American Idol.....

Nope! Incorrect! Disparage away! Just tell me why in more than a one liner.

Although I don't expect anything useful or intelligent from Cap'n Cat, I expect a better analysis from you, Appy. Or for that matter, from such as Cleets, Twin Cities or DBJon, if I can manage not to offend them.

Hell, it gets boring agreeing with my compatriots all the time, and tiresome to piss on someone else's leg. I would rather be challenged by someone with intelligence, intellectual honesty and willingness to analyze the issues.

You have demonstrated a deeper and more intellectually honest understanding of issues than the simple solutions you espouse on this particular thread. I probably agree with much of your criticism of corporate America, but hating and criticizing without pulling the thread and offering alternative solutions is not enough.

Isn't this issue worth digging a bit deeper?

Give it up, Junior G-man. This topic has been beat to death a thousand times here. You're way behind, you're dealing in obvious superficialities and you've got an overinflated sense of newb importance. Watch the board for a year, then come back and try to fit in.

In the meantime, stare at my avatar each day for an hour and repeat, "Cap'n Cat is my god and savior."

Begin now.

houndawg wrote:

native wrote:Someone requested us not to get off topic in one of the Pelosi threads, so here is a new thread on the subject of democide. The subject in this particular post of democide by the Vietnamese communists.

Professor R.J. Rummel is the leading researcher into "democide," which he defines as "the murder of any person or people by a government, including genocide, politicide, and mass murder." (Wikipedia)



My dad never said much about Vietnam. He was from an earlier era. But my library covers most of the eras from Ho Chi Minh's earliest years through the post war era.

The "millions" of innocents you claim were killed by the U.S. in Vietnam is a lie, Cap,n Cat. Cowboy up.

The U.S. has made plenty of mistakes, including as many as 6,000 civilian casualties of our bombing campaigns in Vietnam and atrocities such as 500 killed at My Lai. But over the course of our history we have saved more than we have killed, as demonstrated by the million or so of the best and brightest who escaped Vietnam and immigrated to the United States after the war. More have died from our cowardly negligence in abandoning allies than by commission of atrocities.

Our mistakes pale in comparison to the deliberate murder of civilians committed by our enemies. The Vietnam War is a case in point. 95% of the civilian deaths occurred at the hands of the communists. The other 5% includes the U.S. and our RVN ally.

Everyone has seen the picture of the little girl running down the road after getting napalmed. Have you also seen the picture of the dozens of schoolteachers lined up and executed by the North Vietnamese after capturing Hue City? They were among the 2,800 to 6,000 civilians executed by the communists during the short weeks of occupation by the North in 1968. Roughly 95% of the killing of civilians conducted during the war was done by the communists.

After the war, the Vietnamese communists executed 60,000 prisoners after the war. Admittedly these were combatants. Therefore they do not count against the 1.67 million innocent civilians murdered by the communists AFTER the end of the war in 1975.

For Cap'n Cat: First you established that homework is not your forte. Now you have confirmed that math is not your bag, either. Reading matters. Math matters. Homework matters. People matter. Democide matters. If you wish to open you pie hole and make noise, first you should learn to read and to count.

Cap'n Cat, I wish you peace from whatever demons persecute you. Lying to yourself and making a fool of yourself will not make the demons go away.

If we really care about people, then we must force ourselves to read and to count.

Suggested references:
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP6.HTM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide
http://markhumphrys.com/communism.asia.html#democide

6,000 civilian casualties in our bombing campaigns? SMFH

Where do you find this nonsense, native? You have this way of sounding like a reality-based person for a while and then suddenly coming out of deep left field with the most preposterous nonsense that god and evrybody knows simply ain't true.We dropped more bombs on North Vietnam than were dropped in WW2 by all sides.

native wrote:

houndawg wrote:
6,000 civilian casualties in our bombing campaigns? SMFH

Where do you find this nonsense, native? You have this way of sounding like a reality-based person for a while and then suddenly coming out of deep left field with the most preposterous nonsense that god and evrybody knows simply ain't true.We dropped more bombs on North Vietnam than were dropped in WW2 by all sides.

C'mon, Houndawg, I provided my sources! Where are yours? Chomsky?!???

Rummel's research has gained wide acceptance in academia. His original sources include the North Vietnamese themselves.

Most of what we killed with bombs in Vietnam was jungle. Sure, we hit plenty of military targets and killed more than 6,000 enemy combatants, but the civilian casualties of American bombing in Vietnam were probably about 6,000. Neither Johnson nor Nixon bombed the cities in Vietnam like we did in WWII, the "good" war.

If you had done your homework you would have known that most of the civilian casualties of American bombing in Southeast Asia occurred in the Parrot's Beak of Cambodia, and along the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Laos. When you add it all up, we killed more than 60,000 innocent civilians. BUT IT WAS 6,000 in VIETNAM.

No wonder some of you knuckleheads are so full of sh!t. You are too fvcking lazy to do any d@mm homework or challenge assumptions!

Cap'n Cat wrote:



Thanks, Biff, for the sixth grade refresher!

Appaholic wrote:
Certainly not in our interest to lose the Cold War. However, I believe a case can be made that a continuation of the Cold War between US-USSR would have benefited the US more than our apparent "victory". Two superpowers keeping each other and the rest of the world in check. ...

Appaholic wrote:
...Now, a lone superpower with the world's burden at it's feet. USSR used to be the bad guys who would do the dirty work while we claimed moral superiority. Now, the dirty work still has to be done and we are the only one's capable to perform this function. I long for the days when our biggest worries were the Ruskies and not a radical fundamentalist country-less muslim pushing a baby stroller strapped with bombs into a crowded civilian location...

Appaholic wrote:... I do not believe the Vietnam War contributed to our Cold War victory except in one aspect. We took a page from the Soviets support of VC and applied same logic by supporting mujahadeen in Afghanistan in their struggle with Soviets. In hindsight, it seems to be the spark that led to the fall of the communist house of cards but also a precursor of some of our current & future issues.

citdog wrote:let us not forget Pol Pot, brother #1, and his Khmer Rouge and the emptying of cities and forced migration to the countryside, the mass murder of intellectuals, and the million or so citizens of "Democratic Kampuchea" that were murdered.

Cap'n Cat wrote:Don't forget your haircut at 4:30 for the Sadie Hawkins dance tonight with Jamie Sue.

AZGrizFan wrote:

Cap'n Cat wrote:Don't forget your haircut at 4:30 for the Sadie Hawkins dance tonight with Jamie Sue.

This is Cappy's standard response when he know's he's had his ASS handed to him in a debate. Resort to namecalling and cheap shots.


Nice work, Cappy.

Cap'n Cat wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:

This is Cappy's standard response when he know's he's had his ASS handed to him in a debate. Resort to namecalling and cheap shots.


Nice work, Cappy.

Gotcha, Z.

Actually, this is Z's standard response when he sees someone who's kicked his ass for two or three months on here get into it with anyone. It's the old Conk circle jerk pile-on.

Super work, Z! Let me tell ya, you and Beaver Cleaver here really got it goin'!

AZGrizFan wrote:

Cap'n Cat wrote:




Gotcha, Z.

Actually, this is Z's standard response when he sees someone who's kicked his ass for two or three months on here get into it with anyone. It's the old Conk circle jerk pile-on.

Super work, Z! Let me tell ya, you and Beaver Cleaver here really got it goin'!

You're fighting the good fight, Cappy, but you got yer' ass handed to you and you know it. Slink off into a corner, lick your wounds (or your balls, whatever), and come back out once you've got your confidence back up. I got your brother to cave in, I can get you to as well.

I am the king. Don't you forget it.

Cap'n Cat wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:
You're fighting the good fight, Cappy, but you got yer' ass handed to you and you know it. Slink off into a corner, lick your wounds (or your balls, whatever), and come back out once you've got your confidence back up. I got your brother to cave in, I can get you to as well.

I am the king. Don't you forget it.

Ok, I guess you're right.

AZGrizFan wrote:

Cap'n Cat wrote:




Gotcha, Z.

Actually, this is Z's standard response when he sees someone who's kicked his ass for two or three months on here get into it with anyone. It's the old Conk circle jerk pile-on.

Super work, Z! Let me tell ya, you and Beaver Cleaver here really got it goin'!

You're fighting the good fight, Cappy, but you got yer' ass handed to you and you know it. Slink off into a corner, lick your wounds (or your balls, whatever), and come back out once you've got your confidence back up. I got your brother to cave in, I can get you to as well.

I am the king. Don't you forget it.

D1B wrote:

AZGrizFan wrote:
You're fighting the good fight, Cappy, but you got yer' ass handed to you and you know it. Slink off into a corner, lick your wounds (or your balls, whatever), and come back out once you've got your confidence back up. I got your brother to cave in, I can get you to as well.

I am the king. Don't you forget it.

Cave in You don't even know what you got into, yet. You're scared shitless....

native wrote:Political parties forming circular firing squads on domestic issues is bad enough, but our current bipartisan circular firing squad on foreign affairs is an absurd and obscene tragedy of the highest order. Not the first time, though. It took a little more than a generation to develop our consensus on the Cold War. It will probably take that long to develop our next national consensus.

Appaholic wrote:... I do not believe the Vietnam War contributed to our Cold War victory except in one aspect. We took a page from the Soviets support of VC and applied same logic by supporting mujahadeen in Afghanistan in their struggle with Soviets. In hindsight, it seems to be the spark that led to the fall of the communist house of cards but also a precursor of some of our current & future issues.

Yup! The world is just too dang complicated sometimes. I do not envy some of the the decisions our leaders must make.

Obviously we disagree about the Vietnam War, but I think there is at least one fundamental flaw in your analysis. Correct me if I am wrong, but you are assuming that we never whipped the Viet Cong. Nothing could be farther from the truth. As intelligence reports told us at the time and post war writings of the communists themselves confirmed, our response to the 1968 Tet Offensive allowed us to wipe out the VC in Vietnam. The only ones we missed were the fourth estate and fifth column fellow travelers in the US.

We did whip the Viet Cong, but we never whipped the North Vietnamese Communists. Likewise the North Vietnamese did not whip the South Vietnamese through internal subversion, but through traditional invasion with tanks and troops, ONLY after we dropped our support.