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and a fine....

Hello everyone...great work by T-man, clenz, wide right, and the rest. Since Capt'n Cat's other brother got sick of all the truth about his false prophet on the A*S poly wing ( ), its time to spread more of the truth around here, too.

PS...love the decor, dback.

http://www.politico.com/livepulse/0909/ ... ml?showall

Flout the mandate penalty? Face the IRS

Americans who fail to pay the penalty for not buying insurance would face legal action from the Internal Revenue Service, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation.

The remarks Thursday from the committee's chief of staff, Thomas Barthold, seems to further weaken President Barack Obama's contention last week that the individual mandate penalty, which could go as high as $1,900, is not a tax increase.

Under questioning from Sen. John Ensign (R-Nev.), Barthold said the IRS would "take you to court and undertake normal collection proceedings."

Ensign pursued the line of questioning because he said a lot of Americans don't believe the Constitution allows the government to mandate the purchase of insurance.

So much for the left being "Pro-Choice"...

I wonder if veterans would be exempt from the mandate and penalties of not carrying healthcare insurance, since they have access to VA healthcare.

CitadelGrad wrote:I wonder if veterans would be exempt from the mandate and penalties of not carrying healthcare insurance, since they have access to VA healthcare.

I would imagine so

Good to see you here Baldy.

I still can't understand how so many people can want to willingly hand over this much power to the Government.

Ursus A. Horribilis wrote:Good to see you here Baldy.

I still can't understand how so many people can want to willingly hand over this much power to the Government.

They think they are "stickin' it to the man" and getting something for free. Unfortunately they will learn, should it pass, that the "free something" will be worth everything they are paying for it. Then when you factor in the loss of freedom and dignity that goes along with it, they'll find that the cost was actually very high.

Ursus A. Horribilis wrote:
I still can't understand how so many people can want to willingly hand over this much power to the Government.

UK - Universal, tax payer
France - Social
Singapore - Dual sytem
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8201711.stm

Good to see us Baldy


Will respond when not on iPhone

JMU DJ wrote:

Ursus A. Horribilis wrote:
I still can't understand how so many people can want to willingly hand over this much power to the Government.

UK - Universal, tax payer
France - Social
Singapore - Dual sytem
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8201711.stm

Nice graphs, but all that data doesn't take lifestyle choices (i.e. freedom) into account, plus you're using the mythical 47 million number that has proven to be totally inaccurate.

Otherwise, nice article...

JMU DJ wrote:

Ursus A. Horribilis wrote:
I still can't understand how so many people can want to willingly hand over this much power to the Government.

UK - Universal, tax payer
France - Social
Singapore - Dual sytem
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8201711.stm

It seems like I read somewhere that part of the reason why our infant mortality is higher is because of the way we count infant death compared to other countries. I'll have to look for the article.

Baldy wrote:
Nice graphs, but all that data doesn't take lifestyle choices (i.e. freedom) into account, plus you're using the mythical 47 million number that has proven to be totally inaccurate.

I'll give you the 47 mill as being statistically incorrect... but freedom? Are you kidding man?

France and the UK have just as much, if not more social freedom that us. They do have less economic freedoms though so I will concede that point. Their economic freedoms may explain why their countries weren't responsible for a global economic crisis though. Oh, and I feel real free under the numerous acts of government that were passed during the "fear mongering" era.


Maybe you're speaking of other lifestyle choices, such as the American choice to gorge our faces with greasy, over portioned, unhealthy food any chance we get leading to one of the fattest nations on earth.

JMU DJ wrote:

Baldy wrote:
Nice graphs, but all that data doesn't take lifestyle choices (i.e. freedom) into account, plus you're using the mythical 47 million number that has proven to be totally inaccurate.

I'll give you the 47 mill as being statistically incorrect... but freedom? Are you kidding man?

France and the UK have just as much, if not more social freedom that us. They do have less economic freedoms though so I will concede that point. Their economic freedoms may explain why their countries weren't responsible for a global economic crisis though. Oh, and I feel real free under the numerous acts of government that were passed during the "fear mongering" era.


Maybe you're speaking of other lifestyle choices, such as the American choice to gorge our faces with greasy, over portioned, unhealthy food any chance we get leading to one of the fattest nations on earth.

Eating habits could be considered one (Eurpoe isn't exactly 'thin' either), but I am also referring to gun ownership (and the deaths occurring from them), automobile accident data since the US has a much higher death to accident ratio than Europe as a whole. There are also cultural and demographic differences. The US has a much more diverse society than Europe, and for some odd scientific reasons, the life expectancy for Blacks is considerably shorter than for whites. There are many many more reasons, but I think you get my drift...

Oh, and I won't even get into the fact that if you have a heart attack in the UK you are 40% more likely to die than if you were in the US, or the fact that people with cancer (no matter which type) in the US have a greater life expectancy than people with cancer in any country in Europe. We can get into that discussion later if you wish.

HI54UNI wrote: It seems like I read somewhere that part of the reason why our infant mortality is higher is because of the way we count infant death compared to other countries. I'll have to look for the article.

I heard that too. And something like other countries in that study not including murders.

Our infant mortality goes up to age 2 or 3 I believe. I think most other countries cut it off at under a year...I could be wrong though.

andy7171 wrote:

HI54UNI wrote: It seems like I read somewhere that part of the reason why our infant mortality is higher is because of the way we count infant death compared to other countries. I'll have to look for the article.

I heard that too. And something like other countries in that study not including murders.

I thought I read it here on another thread that if murder wasn't taken into account for the US we would have the highest age of all.

JMU DJ wrote:

Ursus A. Horribilis wrote:
I still can't understand how so many people can want to willingly hand over this much power to the Government.

UK - Universal, tax payer
France - Social
Singapore - Dual sytem
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8201711.stm

Nice post. Thanks for the chart and the link.

Baldy wrote:

JMU DJ wrote:


UK - Universal, tax payer
France - Social
Singapore - Dual sytem
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8201711.stm

Nice graphs, but all that data doesn't take lifestyle choices (i.e. freedom) into account, plus you're using the mythical 47 million number that has proven to be totally inaccurate.

Otherwise, nice article...

I was going to mention that the 'number of uninsured' that the administration likes to quote includes people who don't have insurance by choice, and both resident and illegal aliens.

JMU DJ wrote:

Baldy wrote:
Nice graphs, but all that data doesn't take lifestyle choices (i.e. freedom) into account, plus you're using the mythical 47 million number that has proven to be totally inaccurate.

I'll give you the 47 mill as being statistically incorrect... but freedom? Are you kidding man?

France and the UK have just as much, if not more social freedom that us. They do have less economic freedoms though so I will concede that point. Their economic freedoms may explain why their countries weren't responsible for a global economic crisis though. Oh, and I feel real free under the numerous acts of government that were passed during the "fear mongering" era.


Maybe you're speaking of other lifestyle choices, such as the American choice to gorge our faces with greasy, over portioned, unhealthy food any chance we get leading to one of the fattest nations on earth.

I haven't spent much time in France, but if you ever wanted to find yourself a nanny state to live in, go check out Germany and Great Britain. I have spent lots of time in those places and believe me, the only real freedom you have there is when you take a sh!t.

I can give you the addresses and phone numbers to the French and British Consulates General if you'd like to immigrate on over there and see for yourself.

CID1990 wrote: I haven't spent much time in France, but if you ever wanted to find yourself a nanny state to live in, go check out Germany and Great Britain. I have spent lots of time in those places and believe me, the only real freedom you have there is when you take a sh!t.

I can give you the addresses and phone numbers to the French and British Consulates General if you'd like to immigrate on over there and see for yourself.

Look about the same to me... but yeah, I've been thinking about doing a post doc over there, that info would be greatly appreciated

Whistling my way to utopia, when all are required to have health insurance.

Can anybody besides me say "Ca-Ching"?

CID1990 wrote:

JMU DJ wrote:
I'll give you the 47 mill as being statistically incorrect... but freedom? Are you kidding man?

France and the UK have just as much, if not more social freedom that us. They do have less economic freedoms though so I will concede that point. Their economic freedoms may explain why their countries weren't responsible for a global economic crisis though. Oh, and I feel real free under the numerous acts of government that were passed during the "fear mongering" era.


Maybe you're speaking of other lifestyle choices, such as the American choice to gorge our faces with greasy, over portioned, unhealthy food any chance we get leading to one of the fattest nations on earth.

I haven't spent much time in France, but if you ever wanted to find yourself a nanny state to live in, go check out Germany and Great Britain. I have spent lots of time in those places and believe me, the only real freedom you have there is when you take a sh!t.

I can give you the addresses and phone numbers to the French and British Consulates General if you'd like to immigrate on over there and see for yourself.

At least in Germany, the customs process works efficiently, and the officials are friendly and helpful.

I was embarrassed by the incompetent people and processes upon returning from Germany to the USA through Atlanta customs.

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JMU DJ wrote:

CID1990 wrote: I haven't spent much time in France, but if you ever wanted to find yourself a nanny state to live in, go check out Germany and Great Britain. I have spent lots of time in those places and believe me, the only real freedom you have there is when you take a sh!t.

I can give you the addresses and phone numbers to the French and British Consulates General if you'd like to immigrate on over there and see for yourself.

Look about the same to me... but yeah, I've been thinking about doing a post doc over there, that info would be greatly appreciated

When I consider personal freedoms, I include not having to pay exorbitant costs for that freedom. In other words, I don't think the government should be taking care of my every want, and I should not be paying for that same government to be taking care of everybody else's wants.

I see that Germany is "more free" than the U.S. according to your map. However, I would argue that your map does not take oppressive taxation into account. Otherwise, the Scandinavian countries like Norway would drop down quite a bit.

I would also question the map's criteria in terms of freedom of speech. Germany and France proscribe certain kinds of speech. For instance, denying any aspect of the Holocaust will land you in jail in Germany. So will the open display of Nazi insignia. Granted, those things are despicable, but at least in this country we can be as nutty as we want to be without fear of incarceration. They don't have that in the most "progressive" European countries. Perhaps some people in this country agree with this mindset.

Part of what led to the kinds of taxation we see in places like Norway is the result of snowballing entitlements. It is so bad in some of those countries that some incomes are taxed as high as 70%. What does this money pay for? Consider for a moment that if you are farmer in Sweden, the government considers it an entitlement for you to take vacation. Therefore, when you take vacation, farm workers will be paid to tend your farm for a couple weeks a year while you go hump reindeer or whatever. Entitlements like that started with the notion that government should supply every want, such as vacation. Once the mandate extended to the private sector, it was an unstoppable train.

This is one of the reasons that I normally oppose social spending that on its face appears to be completely rational and compassionate. Once you extend largesse to one group, you eventually have no choice but to continue extending it.

BTW- If you want a student visa to Germany you can apply online at
http://www.germany.info/Vertretung/usa/ ... ation.html.

If you want to study in France- http://www.consulfrance-washington.org/.

If you want to immigrate to one of those countries, you can apply at either place for an immigrant visa. If you are useful to either country, say, as a climatologist or a tax collector, then once you get your visa you can renounce your U.S. citizenship at any of the U.S. Consulates in Germany (3 of them, I believe) or France (about 4 or 5 of them).

Germany and France are both visa waiver countries, so you do not need a visa to visit as a tourist, but then you won't get the full utopian view in just 60 days.

native wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
I haven't spent much time in France, but if you ever wanted to find yourself a nanny state to live in, go check out Germany and Great Britain. I have spent lots of time in those places and believe me, the only real freedom you have there is when you take a sh!t.

I can give you the addresses and phone numbers to the French and British Consulates General if you'd like to immigrate on over there and see for yourself.

At least in Germany, the customs process works efficiently, and the officials are friendly and helpful.

I was embarrassed by the incompetent people and processes upon returning from Germany to the USA through Atlanta customs.

You weren't dealing with Customs. You were dealing with DHS and TSA, and yes, they can be somewhat "ignant".

CID1990 wrote:
You weren't dealing with Customs. You were dealing with DHS and TSA, and yes, they can be somewhat "ignant".

Yup, they put the wrong stamp on my Dutch friends passport... almost got him exported. US consulate in Holland also lost his passport last time he was there, ended up having to stay there for another two weeks until the situation was resolved.


We can nitpick over what you can and can't do in each respective country, the fact is that our country has freedoms that aren't available elsewhere, while those countries have freedoms that we don't have as Americans. I'm fine with that, I'm just happy I live in a country that is free.... I'd be fine in any country that allows me to live free... there will always be trade offs for your freedom no matter where you live. Whether that's not being able to deny the holocaust or have your emails read without probable cause or being held without upholding habeas corpus it really depends on how much you really want to give up.

This site puts together a list of all the countries in the world based upon the freedoms available there, if you want to read into how they calculate the data, it's on the site. Just happy to live in a nation that is a 1.0.
http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cf ... &year=2009

Sorry for posting the bogus health insurance chart up there, the original point was in response to Ursus for why people are willing to go through this method. Most people will only read those stats and not get in depth info about where the really came from and if they are statistically relevant... they'll just watch the Michael Moore movie and believe that what he says must be right. So you have a bunch of people who think they are informed pushing for it because they got some stats of Wikipedia. Now, I think some of those stats up there are relevant, but it's been pointed out the uninsured aspect is incorrect, our population is much more diverse which will lead to differences in the stats, etc. I'm more surprised by expenditures put towards health care by each country.

JMU DJ wrote:

CID1990 wrote:
You weren't dealing with Customs. You were dealing with DHS and TSA, and yes, they can be somewhat "ignant".

Yup, they put the wrong stamp on my Dutch friends passport... almost got him exported. US consulate in Holland also lost his passport last time he was there, ended up having to stay there for another two weeks until the situation was resolved.


We can nitpick over what you can and can't do in each respective country, the fact is that our country has freedoms that aren't available elsewhere, while those countries have freedoms that we don't have as Americans. I'm fine with that, I'm just happy I live in a country that is free.... I'd be fine in any country that allows me to live free... there will always be trade offs for your freedom no matter where you live. Whether that's not being able to deny the holocaust or have your emails read without probable cause or being held without upholding habeas corpus it really depends on how much you really want to give up.

This site puts together a list of all the countries in the world based upon the freedoms available there, if you want to read into how they calculate the data, it's on the site. Just happy to live in a nation that is a 1.0.
http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cf ... &year=2009

Sorry for posting the bogus health insurance chart up there, the original point was in response to Ursus for why people are willing to go through this method. Most people will only read those stats and not get in depth info about where the really came from and if they are statistically relevant... they'll just watch the Michael Moore movie and believe that what he says must be right. So you have a bunch of people who think they are informed pushing for it because they got some stats of Wikipedia. Now, I think some of those stats up there are relevant, but it's been pointed out the uninsured aspect is incorrect, our population is much more diverse which will lead to differences in the stats, etc. I'm more surprised by expenditures put towards health care by each country.

Having been privy to some of that, I can tell you that unless you are emailing a guy named Muhammed in Waziristan or Lahore, you don't have anything to worry about.

Do you know of someone who had their emails intercepted?

As for most European countries, I'll say that for the most part, you can live as unhindered there as you can here. The similarities end when you start comparing tax rates. They are absolutely confiscatory in most European countries. The ones that are not so bad are heading that way in order to contribute to the EU's social spending pot.