First Division I "death penalty" in 25 years?

[rkwittem]

Just jumping in here. Even with the added stuff from the Freeh report I still don't see how this results in a death penalty for PSU football. Just like Frank said, there are very clear culprits in this case and each and every one of them is going to do serious jail time. I think you can see the potential for sanctions against PSU football, and frankly, I like Ed Rendell's idea of having the profits from football (after paying the salaries for people who make their livliehood off of football who had nothing to do with this - the ushers, the people in the ticket office, the groundscrew, etc) be sent to some charity or other foundation (clearly not the Second Mile) for a period of time. The punishment for the wrongdoers is there (i.e. long jail terms in federal or state prisons) and that's generally what the NCAA sanctions are for (although oddly, that's always the knock against the NCAA and it's sanctions - Reggie Bush and Pete Carroll and the like break a lot of rules, and then the NCAA punishes the player who was 12 years old when it happened - that'll show em!).

I am still struggling with what the proper response or punishment should be. As a fan I don't want the death penalty,

Bingo. This why these Penn State apologists are still fighting tooth and claw to protect their school. They're still worried about their football team getting snuffed out the NCAA.
I thought deference to the football program is what caused this scandal in the first place. Glad to see a Penn Stater admit the truth behind their sentiments. You don't want to become the new SMU. That's what you're mad about. And it's pathetic.

[∞∞∞]

What many PSU apologists don't get is that we don't want the NCAA to punish the school for the criminal activities of individuals, but for the well-documented, messed up, and football-centric culture at Happy Valley that allowed these heinous acts to happen. It's perfectly fair that this would fall under "lack of institutional control."

[Franks Tanks]

I am still struggling with what the proper response or punishment should be. As a fan I don't want the death penalty,

Bingo. This why these Penn State apologists are still fighting tooth and claw to protect their school. They're still worried about their football team getting snuffed out the NCAA.
I thought deference to the football program is what caused this scandal in the first place. Glad to see a Penn Stater admit the truth behind their sentiments. You don't want to become the new SMU. That's what you're mad about. And it's pathetic.

You are a complete dumbass who doesn't have an analytical thought in your head. Just because I say I don't want the death penatly it doesn't mean I am an apologist or condone child rape (which some idiots actually acuse). If you want to help the victims the best strategy is to allow the program to continue, and have PSU donate money to child abuse charities etc. Many impartial and well respected national media members have argued against the death penalty for numerous reasons-- I guess they are child rape loving apologists. You are a complete fool.

I want to see the people responsible for this punished. If PSU gets sanctions I will be disappointed but I will accept them. How is that hard to understand?

[Franks Tanks]

What many PSU apologists don't get is that we don't want the NCAA to punish the school for the criminal activities of individuals, but for the well-documented, messed up, and football-centric culture at Happy Valley that allowed these heinous acts to happen. It's perfectly fair that this would fall under "lack of institutional control."

You make no sense. You want to punish a fan base for caring about a football team? Also the culture of Penn State and it's fans allowed nothing to happen-- a few men who knew about the allegations and didn't report allowed it to happen.

[89Hen]

What makes one a PSU apologist? Somebody who helped cover up the abuse? Somebody who wants to just sweep it under the rug? Somebody who is saddened and angered by this whole thing but doesn't let it tarnish their memory of going to school there? Somebody who thinks that the NCAA shouldn't issue death penalties for criminal offenses instead of breaking NCAA rules?

edit: Frank beat me to it.

[Franks Tanks]

What makes one a PSU apologist? Somebody who helped cover up the abuse? Somebody who wants to just sweep it under the rug? Somebody who is saddened and angered by this whole thing but doesn't let it tarnish their memory of going to school there? Somebody who thinks that the NCAA shouldn't issue death penalties for criminal offenses instead of breaking NCAA rules?

edit: Frank beat me to it.

We have a smart guy in the room. I can feel for the victims, want the guilty parties punished, and still hope that PSU football has a good season next year and enjoy going to a game.

As I said I have struggled deciding on the proper penalty, but I can hope the death penalty is not imposed. That in no way makes me an apologist, an enabler, or a crazy person who only cares about football.

[89Hen]

Maybe I am an apologist. Mrs89 came home from a hen dinner (ladies, not Blue) and apparently they were discussing the PSU situation. I told her the NCAA has never given the death penalty for criminal charges that weren't related to cheating for benefit of the program. She argued that by not disclosing Sandusky, the program did benefit.

Am I wrong to draw a line and say there's a difference to cheating to give your program an advantage over other programs and covering this up to give your program an advantage over itself?

[Franks Tanks]

Maybe I am an apologist. Mrs89 came home from a hen dinner (ladies, not Blue) and apparently they were discussing the PSU situation. I told her the NCAA has never given the death penalty for criminal charges that weren't related to cheating for benefit of the program. She argued that by not disclosing Sandusky, the program did benefit.

Am I wrong to draw a line and say there's a difference to cheating to give your program an advantage over other programs and covering this up to give your program an advantage over itself?

It is an interesting point you raise. I can see how NOT reporting can be used to explain a competitive advantage if the NCAA decided to go that route. If the NCAA does act I think it will be under the LOIC, and many actions can be penalized under that clause and it does not have a well explained definition.

[89Hen]

Maybe I am an apologist. Mrs89 came home from a hen dinner (ladies, not Blue) and apparently they were discussing the PSU situation. I told her the NCAA has never given the death penalty for criminal charges that weren't related to cheating for benefit of the program. She argued that by not disclosing Sandusky, the program did benefit.

Am I wrong to draw a line and say there's a difference to cheating to give your program an advantage over other programs and covering this up to give your program an advantage over itself?

It is an interesting point you raise. I can see how NOT reporting can be used to explain a competitive advantage if the NCAA decided to go that route. If the NCAA does act I think it will be under the LOIC, and many actions can be penalized under that clause and it does not have a well explained definition.

I think the difference is the actions of Sandusky did not give PSU a competitive advantage in any way, shape or form. So by covering it up, the only advantage was over their own program with a scandal (which is where they are now). The CRIME of what Sandusky did is FARRRRR worse than the rules infractions of Ohio State, USC, etc... but from strictly a football standpoint it doesn't register. IMO, that's why the penalties should be criminal and civil and not in the realm of athletics.

[Franks Tanks]

It is an interesting point you raise. I can see how NOT reporting can be used to explain a competitive advantage if the NCAA decided to go that route. If the NCAA does act I think it will be under the LOIC, and many actions can be penalized under that clause and it does not have a well explained definition.

I think the difference is the actions of Sandusky did not give PSU a competitive advantage in any way, shape or form. So by covering it up, the only advantage was over their own program with a scandal (which is where they are now). The CRIME of what Sandusky did is FARRRRR worse than the rules infractions of Ohio State, USC, etc... but from strictly a football standpoint it doesn't register. IMO, that's why the penalties should be criminal and civil and not in the realm of athletics.

Personally I tend to agree with you, but also see the venom spewed toward all things Penn State from so many angles. Sometimes I wonder if it is just better for PSU to self-impose very severe penalties for 2-3 years to get people to shut-up. This doesn't help the victims in any way as PSU would have much less money available to donate etc., but it may help people move on.

[rkwittem]

Bingo. This why these Penn State apologists are still fighting tooth and claw to protect their school. They're still worried about their football team getting snuffed out the NCAA.
I thought deference to the football program is what caused this scandal in the first place. Glad to see a Penn Stater admit the truth behind their sentiments. You don't want to become the new SMU. That's what you're mad about. And it's pathetic.

You are a complete dumbass who doesn't have an analytical thought in your head. Just because I say I don't want the death penatly it doesn't mean I am an apologist or condone child rape (which some idiots actually acuse). If you want to help the victims the best strategy is to allow the program to continue, and have PSU donate money to child abuse charities etc. Many impartial and well respected national media members have argued against the death penalty for numerous reasons-- I guess they are child rape loving apologists. You are a complete fool.

I want to see the people responsible for this punished. If PSU gets sanctions I will be disappointed but I will accept them. How is that hard to understand?

So make Penn State gut their program and simply redirect their sizable football budget towards victim reimbursement. Think of all the money you'd save by not having to pay coaches, for recruiting trips, equipment, etc and put it towards the victims. That way everybody except Penn State wins. Perfect.
You say you are still worried about the victims and want justice for them but you still want to keep your school's football-centric culture that turned JoePa into the God of Penn State in place by keeping your football program alive.


I'm still pretty sure that 99% of Penn State fans are shitting bricks about what's about to happen to their football team. Who knows, maybe this is what Indiana and Minnesota need to get out of the B1G basement? I know I sure won't complain if Penn State is irrelevant.

[clenz]

IF....I repete IF....PSU gets the death penalty does the B1G take some sort of action?

Their teams won't stand for losing a conference TV game, revenue loss, etc...

Would they find themselves on the indy scene yet again? It would allow the B1G to embrace the midwest again

[grizzaholic]

IF....I repete IF....PSU gets the death penalty does the B1G take some sort of action?

Their teams won't stand for losing a conference TV game, revenue loss, etc...

Would they find themselves on the indy scene yet again? It would allow the B1G to embrace the midwest again

NDSU would be a great fit.

[SuperHornet]

The grab for power is getting worse. The Big Ten (and to some degree, the SEC) are discussing the idea of granting the commish the power to directly fire coaches.

Stupidest idea I've ever heard....

[89Hen]

So make Penn State gut their program and simply redirect their sizable football budget towards victim reimbursement. Think of all the money you'd save by not having to pay coaches, for recruiting trips, equipment, etc and put it towards the victims. That way everybody except Penn State wins. Perfect.

I do hope this was tongue in cheek commentary.

[Franks Tanks]

You are a complete dumbass who doesn't have an analytical thought in your head. Just because I say I don't want the death penatly it doesn't mean I am an apologist or condone child rape (which some idiots actually acuse). If you want to help the victims the best strategy is to allow the program to continue, and have PSU donate money to child abuse charities etc. Many impartial and well respected national media members have argued against the death penalty for numerous reasons-- I guess they are child rape loving apologists. You are a complete fool.

I want to see the people responsible for this punished. If PSU gets sanctions I will be disappointed but I will accept them. How is that hard to understand?

So make Penn State gut their program and simply redirect their sizable football budget towards victim reimbursement. Think of all the money you'd save by not having to pay coaches, for recruiting trips, equipment, etc and put it towards the victims. That way everybody except Penn State wins. Perfect.
You say you are still worried about the victims and want justice for them but you still want to keep your school's football-centric culture that turned JoePa into the God of Penn State in place by keeping your football program alive.


I'm still pretty sure that 99% of Penn State fans are shitting bricks about what's about to happen to their football team. Who knows, maybe this is what Indiana and Minnesota need to get out of the B1G basement? I know I sure won't complain if Penn State is irrelevant.

Penn State spends 25 million or so on the football program and generates something like 75 million in revenue. They can make a lot more money by playing football. Also you want the NCAA to decide what the Sandusky's victims will recieve from Penn State? That in no way makes sense. Penn State will be sued by the victims and most likley settle out of court for sizeable sums, but the NCAA has no jusidiction to dictate how much PSU should give to each victim.

Many PSU people loved Joe, and some really didn't like him at all. A large a vocal portion of PSU fans and alums wanted Joe fired for more than a decade. Really a "God of Penn State".

[Franks Tanks]

IF....I repete IF....PSU gets the death penalty does the B1G take some sort of action?

Their teams won't stand for losing a conference TV game, revenue loss, etc...

Would they find themselves on the indy scene yet again? It would allow the B1G to embrace the midwest again

Many PSU fans would love to get out of the Big 10. PA has nothing in common with Iowa, Minnesota, etc and most PSU fans hate traveling to away games. Many folks want PSU to join the ACC or go back to being an Indy and replicate what BYU has done.

The Big 10 and PSU will probably stay together however as each side benefits financially from PSU''s membership.

[bluehenbillk]

Many PSU fans would love to get out of the Big 10. PA has nothing in common with Iowa, Minnesota, etc and most PSU fans hate traveling to away games. Many folks want PSU to join the ACC or go back to being an Indy and replicate what BYU has done.

The Big 10 and PSU will probably stay together however as each side benefits financially from PSU''s membership.

I'd say there is a SMALL minority of fans that may want that. Living in PA for decades I could count people on one hand I've ever met with that view, and those people would probably choose the INDY route. There's nowhere else for them to go - the Big East is in shambles and has been "downgraded" from AQ-type status and PSU has as much in common with the North Carolina-based ACC as they do with Iowa & Minny....

[Franks Tanks]

Many PSU fans would love to get out of the Big 10. PA has nothing in common with Iowa, Minnesota, etc and most PSU fans hate traveling to away games. Many folks want PSU to join the ACC or go back to being an Indy and replicate what BYU has done.

The Big 10 and PSU will probably stay together however as each side benefits financially from PSU''s membership.

I'd say there is a SMALL minority of fans that may want that. Living in PA for decades I could count people on one hand I've ever met with that view, and those people would probably choose the INDY route. There's nowhere else for them to go - the Big East is in shambles and has been "downgraded" from AQ-type status and PSU has as much in common with the North Carolina-based ACC as they do with Iowa & Minny....

Penn State's tradition schedule as an Indy was Syracuse, Maryland, Pitt, BC, WVU, Temple, and Rutgers. 4 of them are in the ACC. Also there are more PSU alums in Maryland, Florida, Virginia than Minnesota, Indiana, Iowa so many feel they would travel better. It would be very unlikely because both PSU and the Big 10 would lose $ if PSU left or got kicked out.

[bluehenbillk]

Well you may have a point. Combine that with the fact that the competition in the Big Ten was greater than PSU & Paterno thought it would be - it hasn't been very successful for PSU. Maybe a step down to the ACC would be better for them....

[UNI88]

I'd say there is a SMALL minority of fans that may want that. Living in PA for decades I could count people on one hand I've ever met with that view, and those people would probably choose the INDY route. There's nowhere else for them to go - the Big East is in shambles and has been "downgraded" from AQ-type status and PSU has as much in common with the North Carolina-based ACC as they do with Iowa & Minny....

Penn State's tradition schedule as an Indy was Syracuse, Maryland, Pitt, BC, WVU, Temple, and Rutgers. 4 of them are in the SEC. Also there are more PSU alums in Maryland, Florida, Virginia than Minnesota, Indiana, Iowa so many feel they would travel better. It would be very unlikely because both PSU and the Big 10 would lose $ if PSU left or got kicked out.

Makes me wonder what would have happened if Penn State had joined the Big East? Would have made the conference more appealing to the networks, increased TV revenue and might have stabilized the conference enough to stop the defections to the ACC.

[Franks Tanks]

Well you may have a point. Combine that with the fact that the competition in the Big Ten was greater than PSU & Paterno thought it would be - it hasn't been very successful for PSU. Maybe a step down to the ACC would be better for them....

Mostly due to sub-par coaching and recruiting for the last decade of so. The offensive staff was either too old (Galen Hall, Dick Anderson) or didn't have the proper skills (Jay Paterno).

I don't think PSU is scared of playing Iowa or Illinois, but yes PSU has performed poorly in the Big 10 for more than a few years now.

[Franks Tanks]

Penn State's tradition schedule as an Indy was Syracuse, Maryland, Pitt, BC, WVU, Temple, and Rutgers. 4 of them are in the SEC. Also there are more PSU alums in Maryland, Florida, Virginia than Minnesota, Indiana, Iowa so many feel they would travel better. It would be very unlikely because both PSU and the Big 10 would lose $ if PSU left or got kicked out.

Makes me wonder what would have happened if Penn State had joined the Big East? Would have made the conference more appealing to the networks, increased TV revenue and might have stabilized the conference enough to stop the defections to the ACC.

In the early 80's Joe Paterno, then athletic director at PSU, wanted to form an all sports eastern conference that was essentially the old Big East with PSU. It would include PSU, WVU, Pitt, BC, Syracuse, Rutgers, Temple, and I believe Maryland. It didn't happen because PSU wanted an un-equal revenue share. A Big East with those schools and maybe even Miami, VT, or FSU (way before they joined the ACC) would've been a very attractive conference.

[UNI88]

So make Penn State gut their program and simply redirect their sizable football budget towards victim reimbursement. Think of all the money you'd save by not having to pay coaches, for recruiting trips, equipment, etc and put it towards the victims. That way everybody except Penn State wins. Perfect.
You say you are still worried about the victims and want justice for them but you still want to keep your school's football-centric culture that turned JoePa into the God of Penn State in place by keeping your football program alive.


I'm still pretty sure that 99% of Penn State fans are shitting bricks about what's about to happen to their football team. Who knows, maybe this is what Indiana and Minnesota need to get out of the B1G basement? I know I sure won't complain if Penn State is irrelevant.

Penn State spends 25 million or so on the football program and generates something like 75 million in revenue. They can make a lot more money by playing football. Also you want the NCAA to decide what the Sandusky's victims will recieve from Penn State? That in no way makes sense. Penn State will be sued by the victims and most likley settle out of court for sizeable sums, but the NCAA has no jusidiction to dictate how much PSU should give to each victim.

Many PSU people loved Joe, and some really didn't like him at all. A large a vocal portion of PSU fans and alums wanted Joe fired for more than a decade. Really a "God of Penn State".

The more I think about it the more I agree with this approach. The Death Penalty does nothing to the actual perpetrators, it punishes current athletes and those who make money working at or near the stadium. Penn State should voluntarily create a funding mechanism to take a % of football related revenue and distribute them to charities dealing with child abuse and molestation. If you take all profits you hurt the non-revenue sports that are funded by football's profitability.

I also agree with 89 that there is a difference from a NCAA/football perspective between cheating to give your program an advantage over other programs and covering this up to protect the program.

There could be additional penalties such as scholarship reductions and no bowl bids but IMO the death penalty isn't warranted.

And for those that use this as an example of Penn State's football-centric culture, that culture exists to an extent at a large number of schools. Notre Dame has had some bad PR with women alleging rape by football players that the campus police reportedly did not investigate in a timely and thorough manner. One of these women committed suicide. Montana is still sorting through its issues. It happens at B1G0 schools, SEC schools, DIII schools (Mt. Union, etc.). Anywhere football is a big part of a school's identity, officials are frequently reluctant to pursue allegations that might make the school look bad.

[Ibanez]

The grab for power is getting worse. The Big Ten (and to some degree, the SEC) are discussing the idea of granting the commish the power to directly fire coaches.

Stupidest idea I've ever heard....

Really? Where's your source for the SEC, i'd like to read that.