MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

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MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

Postby Gil Dobie » Thu May 23, 2019 3:22 am

St Thomas was booted from the conference due to competative parity. St Thomas has been dominating the league the last 10 years. The real reason is probably the football team running up the score when they can. The 97-0 win over St Olaf as an example. Glad the MVFC does think that way towards NDSU.

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Competitive parity became a new term for me to use as a sports broadcaster Wednesday. That's how the MIAC defended dismissing founding member St. Thomas after 99 years of service. A month ago I made the case that Concordia needed St. Thomas in the MIAC. Turns out the Cobber school president, William Craft, didn't see it that way.
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Re: MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

Postby CID1990 » Thu May 23, 2019 4:15 am

Gil Dobie wrote:St Thomas was booted from the conference due to competative parity. St Thomas has been dominating the league the last 10 years. The real reason is probably the football team running up the score when they can. The 97-0 win over St Olaf as an example. Glad the MVFC does think that way towards NDSU.

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Competitive parity became a new term for me to use as a sports broadcaster Wednesday. That's how the MIAC defended dismissing founding member St. Thomas after 99 years of service. A month ago I made the case that Concordia needed St. Thomas in the MIAC. Turns out the Cobber school president, William Craft, didn't see it that way.


Maybe they should move up like NDSU


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Re: MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

Postby Gil Dobie » Thu May 23, 2019 4:37 am

CID1990 wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:St Thomas was booted from the conference due to competative parity. St Thomas has been dominating the league the last 10 years. The real reason is probably the football team running up the score when they can. The 97-0 win over St Olaf as an example. Glad the MVFC does think that way towards NDSU.

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Competitive parity became a new term for me to use as a sports broadcaster Wednesday. That's how the MIAC defended dismissing founding member St. Thomas after 99 years of service. A month ago I made the case that Concordia needed St. Thomas in the MIAC. Turns out the Cobber school president, William Craft, didn't see it that way.


Maybe they should move up like NDSU


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They could easily be DII, or even FCS with their large alumni base and nearly 10,000 enrollment. Their football budget is double the nearest MIAC school, at about $1 million.
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Re: MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

Postby 93henfan » Thu May 23, 2019 6:17 am

In their defense, there are two different ways of running up the score: accidental and on purpose.

The biggest blowout I ever witnessed in person was an 84-0 game, and the team that scored 84 stopped trying about halfway through the second quarter. It was an accidental anal rape. There was no running up.

That same team that won 84-0 in that game outscored its first five opponents by a combined score of 237-21. They eventually lost to Georgia Southern and the Other AP in the I-AA semifinals in 2000. I can still see that slippery bitch running down the sidelines in Newark and the camouflaged bumpkins over in section H going crazy. Faggots.
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Re: MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

Postby GannonFan » Thu May 23, 2019 9:24 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
Maybe they should move up like NDSU


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They could easily be DII, or even FCS with their large alumni base and nearly 10,000 enrollment. Their football budget is double the nearest MIAC school, at about $1 million.


If their financial support of sports is that much different than the rest of the teams in the conference then it seems justified - they don't match with the other athletic programs there. Conferences are supposed to be groups of schools that operate (not perform mind you, operate) on even footing. Once you have one that is so far different than the others then they should find a new conference.
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Re: MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

Postby AZGrizFan » Thu May 23, 2019 9:38 am

GannonFan wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
They could easily be DII, or even FCS with their large alumni base and nearly 10,000 enrollment. Their football budget is double the nearest MIAC school, at about $1 million.


If their financial support of sports is that much different than the rest of the teams in the conference then it seems justified - they don't match with the other athletic programs there. Conferences are supposed to be groups of schools that operate (not perform mind you, operate) on even footing. Once you have one that is so far different than the others then they should find a new conference.


Please. Compare UT to Iowa State in the Big 12. USC to Washington State in the Pac 12. Montana to UNC in the BSC. There are ALWAYS vast differences in the spending/priority among colleges in conferences. This is a bush-league fucking move by the MIAC, bunch of fuckers from the trophy generation who think they should still get their rewards without putting in the time/effort/money. THIS is a result of where we're at as a country today, and is probably a harbinger of things to come... :ohno: :ohno: :ohno:
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Re: MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

Postby JohnStOnge » Thu May 23, 2019 5:20 pm

Actually it looks to me like St. Johns has done more in football in that conference. They beat St. Thomas 40 - 20 in 2018 and gave Mary Hardin Baylor its toughest game in the D-III playoffs (lost 18-21). St. Thomas didn't even make the playoffs.

Good thing Mount Union's conference doesn't have this attitude.
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Re: MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

Postby Gil Dobie » Fri May 24, 2019 4:55 am

JohnStOnge wrote:Actually it looks to me like St. Johns has done more in football in that conference. They beat St. Thomas 40 - 20 in 2018 and gave Mary Hardin Baylor its toughest game in the D-III playoffs (lost 18-21). St. Thomas didn't even make the playoffs.

Good thing Mount Union's conference doesn't have this attitude.


True, but it's more about the running up of the score against the conference bottom feeders.
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Re: MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

Postby GannonFan » Fri May 24, 2019 7:13 am

AZGrizFan wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
If their financial support of sports is that much different than the rest of the teams in the conference then it seems justified - they don't match with the other athletic programs there. Conferences are supposed to be groups of schools that operate (not perform mind you, operate) on even footing. Once you have one that is so far different than the others then they should find a new conference.


Please. Compare UT to Iowa State in the Big 12. USC to Washington State in the Pac 12. Montana to UNC in the BSC. There are ALWAYS vast differences in the spending/priority among colleges in conferences. This is a bush-league **** move by the MIAC, bunch of **** from the trophy generation who think they should still get their rewards without putting in the time/effort/money. THIS is a result of where we're at as a country today, and is probably a harbinger of things to come... :ohno: :ohno: :ohno:


You can't compare it to BCS power conferences. The TV/media revenue those conferences get, and then share among the members of the conference, is simply overwhelming. Do you think Rutgers gives a crap if they get smoked in every football or basketball game? Heck no, they're in it for the money. Let me know how the media revenue for the MIAC stacks up against that of the Big 10 and then we can discuss the differences between apples and oranges. Well, more like a pea and a watermelon, to carry the analogy to its proper proportion. :coffee:
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Re: MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

Postby AZGrizFan » Fri May 24, 2019 7:46 am

GannonFan wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
Please. Compare UT to Iowa State in the Big 12. USC to Washington State in the Pac 12. Montana to UNC in the BSC. There are ALWAYS vast differences in the spending/priority among colleges in conferences. This is a bush-league **** move by the MIAC, bunch of **** from the trophy generation who think they should still get their rewards without putting in the time/effort/money. THIS is a result of where we're at as a country today, and is probably a harbinger of things to come... :ohno: :ohno: :ohno:


You can't compare it to BCS power conferences. The TV/media revenue those conferences get, and then share among the members of the conference, is simply overwhelming. Do you think Rutgers gives a crap if they get smoked in every football or basketball game? Heck no, they're in it for the money. Let me know how the media revenue for the MIAC stacks up against that of the Big 10 and then we can discuss the differences between apples and oranges. Well, more like a pea and a watermelon, to carry the analogy to its proper proportion. :coffee:


Except that's not what you said in your OP. You said "operate on equal footing". UT has its own fucking NETWORK. Makes hundreds of millions. Iowa State? Mmmm...not so much.

This is Pac-12 spending (granted it's 2011, but it's the latest I could find):

Washington $19.2 M football, $61.6 M total
Washington St. $8.5 M football $38.0 M total
Oregon $18.1 M football $65.7 M total
Oregon State $11.7 M football $56.0 M total
California $17.4 M football $69.3 M total
Stanford $17.2 M football $81.7 M total
UCLA $15.3 M football $61.9 M total
USC $20.8 M football $75.7 M total
Arizona State $18.0 M football $57.1 M total
Arizona $13.6 M football $55.0 M total
Colorado $14.1 M football $49.3 M total
Utah $9.9 M football $35.2 M total

Two of these things are not like the others.

Here's the Big 12 (2012 data):
School Department Revenue Department Expenses Net Income
Baylor 59,859,235.00 59,859,235.00 0.00
Iowa State 48,574,989.00 48,453,303.00 121,686.00
Kansas 70,028,683.00 70,028,683.00 0.00
Kansas State 68,875,266.00 45,479,858.00 23,395,408.00
Missouri 59,005,954.00 58,862,366.00 143,588.00
Oklahoma 104,338,843.00 96,274,366.00 8,064,477.00
Oklahoma State 70,123,206.00 55,757,830.00 14,365,376.00
Texas 150,295,932.00 125,978,117.00 24,317,815.00
Texas A&M 74,944,301.00 71,719,872.00 3,224,429.00
Texas Tech 51,190,970.00 48,066,724.00 3,124,246.00

Obviously conference realignment has changed these dynamics somewhat as Missouri and A&M are no longer in the conference...but it proves my point. UT's revenue is 3X Iowa State's, 3X Tech's and at LEAST 2X every other team in the conference not named Oklahoma.

One has to presume that revenue includes "TV money"?
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Re: MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

Postby AZGrizFan » Fri May 24, 2019 7:48 am

And just for shits and grins, here's the BSC, from 2014:

Montana $5,896,289
Montana State $5,044,725
Portland State $3,832,289
UC Davis $3,566,555
Eastern Washington $3,444,305
Sacramento State $3,299,190
Northern Arizona $3,267,428
Idaho State $3,261,187
North Dakota $3,181,952
Cal Poly $3,066,342
Northern Colorado $2,965,650
Weber State $2,675,532
Southern Utah $2,333,902
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Re: MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

Postby GannonFan » Fri May 24, 2019 10:13 am

AZGrizFan wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
You can't compare it to BCS power conferences. The TV/media revenue those conferences get, and then share among the members of the conference, is simply overwhelming. Do you think Rutgers gives a crap if they get smoked in every football or basketball game? Heck no, they're in it for the money. Let me know how the media revenue for the MIAC stacks up against that of the Big 10 and then we can discuss the differences between apples and oranges. Well, more like a pea and a watermelon, to carry the analogy to its proper proportion. :coffee:


Except that's not what you said in your OP. You said "operate on equal footing". UT has its own **** NETWORK. Makes hundreds of millions. Iowa State? Mmmm...not so much.

This is Pac-12 spending (granted it's 2011, but it's the latest I could find):

Washington $19.2 M football, $61.6 M total
Washington St. $8.5 M football $38.0 M total
Oregon $18.1 M football $65.7 M total
Oregon State $11.7 M football $56.0 M total
California $17.4 M football $69.3 M total
Stanford $17.2 M football $81.7 M total
UCLA $15.3 M football $61.9 M total
USC $20.8 M football $75.7 M total
Arizona State $18.0 M football $57.1 M total
Arizona $13.6 M football $55.0 M total
Colorado $14.1 M football $49.3 M total
Utah $9.9 M football $35.2 M total

Two of these things are not like the others.

Here's the Big 12 (2012 data):
School Department Revenue Department Expenses Net Income
Baylor 59,859,235.00 59,859,235.00 0.00
Iowa State 48,574,989.00 48,453,303.00 121,686.00
Kansas 70,028,683.00 70,028,683.00 0.00
Kansas State 68,875,266.00 45,479,858.00 23,395,408.00
Missouri 59,005,954.00 58,862,366.00 143,588.00
Oklahoma 104,338,843.00 96,274,366.00 8,064,477.00
Oklahoma State 70,123,206.00 55,757,830.00 14,365,376.00
Texas 150,295,932.00 125,978,117.00 24,317,815.00
Texas A&M 74,944,301.00 71,719,872.00 3,224,429.00
Texas Tech 51,190,970.00 48,066,724.00 3,124,246.00

Obviously conference realignment has changed these dynamics somewhat as Missouri and A&M are no longer in the conference...but it proves my point. UT's revenue is 3X Iowa State's, 3X Tech's and at LEAST 2X every other team in the conference not named Oklahoma.

One has to presume that revenue includes "TV money"?


But again, BCS conferences, namely the P5 ones, are a different animal and weren't even a consideration in my OP because of it. They exist, to a large extent, to make money. Lots of it. The compete on even footing is not a significant goal whatsoever in those conferences. Sure, some of those schools squawked when UT got their own media station, but at the end of the day they also stayed around because they knew even without the even footing that everyone would still be making so much more money than if they left that they threw principles aside and stayed with the money. Again, there's no revenue incentive in the MIAC to mollify the fear of being beat up on the playing fields.
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Re: MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

Postby AZGrizFan » Fri May 24, 2019 9:09 pm

Well again, your OP said “conferences”. It said nothing about small vs large, just that when “conference” teams have vast differences in spending they should find a different conference. Like that’s just so easy. WTF is St. Thomas going to do now? It’s not like there’s a ton of D-III conferences out there that make financial sense to join.
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Re: MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

Postby clenz » Sat May 25, 2019 12:20 am

Here's the thing about using numbers that are 7 years old to make your point.


Iowa State is still the smallest department in the big 12... at 83 million dollars in revenue. For comparison your beloved Red Raiders are less than 5 million a head of ISU

The smallest B10 department is Purdue at 84 million - the only one under 94 million in that conference.

Washington State is the smallest P5 at 65 million..

When it comes to athletics the the comes a point where the revenue money no longer matters.... And 83 million dollars covers that pretty well

By contrast when you get to conferences where the TV money doesn't exist budget gaps do start to matter more.

By the time you get to D3 football it does matter more. The media D3 school has an enrollement of of just over 2,000 students as of 2018. UST is right around 10k. That's a fuck ton of extra tuition and student fee money to use. It's a fuck ton more alumni to donate. At that level that money does make a difference.


Just look at "real life" for example. Which situation has a bigger difference in standard if living:

Person 1 living on 25k a year compared to person 2 living on 50k a year

Or

Person 3 living on 400k per year compared to person 4 living on 800k per year


There's a difference in both, but the person at 400k still has all the really nice shit they could want with extra to spare. Are they buying like one less high end vehicle? Sure. But they are still buying the high end shit.

A person at 50k has the ability to live a pretty good life especially compared to someone living at 25k. One can still pay all expenses and build a savings. The other is struggling to do anything except make the most basic of purchases and payments.



Just go look at the facilities at Iowa State and tell me that they are the little sisters of the poor and don't belong in the same conversation in the B12. Hell, looking at the B12 all sports standings from when your pulling your numbers from Iowa State was still consistently top 4 to 5 finishing in the all sports trophy standings.

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Re: MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

Postby AZGrizFan » Sun May 26, 2019 9:50 am

Doesn’t answer the question: What does St. Thomas do now? This is the new America...punished for your success.
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Re: MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

Postby Gil Dobie » Sun May 26, 2019 2:28 pm

AZGrizFan wrote:Doesn’t answer the question: What does St. Thomas do now? This is the new America...punished for your success.


It's a very rich University, they could easily move to DII or FCS Pioneer league.
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Re: MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

Postby AZGrizFan » Sun May 26, 2019 2:59 pm

Gil Dobie wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:Doesn’t answer the question: What does St. Thomas do now? This is the new America...punished for your success.


It's a very rich University, they could easily move to DII or FCS Pioneer league.


Again, punished for their success. The new American way.
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Re: RE: Re: MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

Postby UNI88 » Mon May 27, 2019 2:47 am

AZGrizFan wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
It's a very rich University, they could easily move to DII or FCS Pioneer league.


Again, punished for their success. The new American way.
If you have 5x the number of students and tremendous resources and you're beating opponents by nearly triple digits are you really being successful or are you being a bully?

And what kind of example are you setting for the students? Settle for excelling at a lower level regardless of whether you have the ability to move up and face greater competition on more equal footing? How Christian is it to beat the snot out of an opponent by nearly triple digits? Is ok because you're Catholic and the opponent is Lutheran?

I don't think the conference should have kicked them out but I do think it was chicken sh!t for them not to move up on their own.

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Re: MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

Postby Gil Dobie » Mon May 27, 2019 5:03 am

The options were to disband the conference, or kick out St Thomas.
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Re: RE: Re: MIAC Conference Kicks St Thomas Out

Postby AZGrizFan » Mon May 27, 2019 1:57 pm

UNI88 wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
Again, punished for their success. The new American way.
If you have 5x the number of students and tremendous resources and you're beating opponents by nearly triple digits are you really being successful or are you being a bully?

And what kind of example are you setting for the students? Settle for excelling at a lower level regardless of whether you have the ability to move up and face greater competition on more equal footing? How Christian is it to beat the snot out of an opponent by nearly triple digits? Is ok because you're Catholic and the opponent is Lutheran?

I don't think the conference should have kicked them out but I do think it was chicken sh!t for them not to move up on their own.

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Didn’t they lose a game last year? Did they even make the NC game? Maybe the MVFC should kick NDSU out too, huh?
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