Do you consider Youngstown State an elite FCS program?

[93henfan]

You can put an asterisk by 1963 as well since you shared it with UNI.

Eh, split national titles were obviously more common back in the day of wire service rankings. I don't see a problem with the 1963 title - just part of the system back then. And the UNI was Northern Illinois, not Northern Iowa.

And of course, App State only has one I-AA title and two FCS titles, since we're being sticklers for terminology.

[Saint3333]

Are UD fans really trying to claim 6 national championships at this level? The Boardwalk Bowl does not equal a 1-AA/FCS championship.

6 National championships at the level one down from the highest level in football (well, 5 clear ones and one asterisk one). Doesn't matter if you call it Small College, the old, pre-'78 DII, I-AA, or FCS, UD's always been at the level one step down from the highest level. Can't really argue with that, only the name's changed.

That sounds nice from a UD PR perspective, but once you realize those "national championships" are claimed after winning something called the Boardwalk Bowl or no bowl at all they don't seem to carry the weight of an 1-AA or FCS championship.

In addition Division 1 was split into two divisions or sub-divisions so really D2 today was Small College Division when UD won those championships.

[93henfan]

In addition Division 1 was split into two divisions or sub-divisions so really D2 today was Small College Division when UD won those championships.

D-1 was university and college division prior to the establishment of D-2 in the 70s. D-1 AA was created a few years later. When UD won its only D-2 championship in '79 via a championship game against Youngstown State, I'd wager big money that either of those two teams would have beat either of the fledgling I-AA schools (FAMU, UMass) in their tiny four team tournament. Hardly anybody was in I-AA in 78 and 79 when the transitioning of several schools to I-AA was ongoing.

Suffice to say, UD has had sustained success at this very level of football for well over 60 years with championships in four separate decades. We realize some of the Johnny Come Lately's want to try to diminish our history. Hey, whatever floats your boat.

Carry on.

[GannonFan]

6 National championships at the level one down from the highest level in football (well, 5 clear ones and one asterisk one). Doesn't matter if you call it Small College, the old, pre-'78 DII, I-AA, or FCS, UD's always been at the level one step down from the highest level. Can't really argue with that, only the name's changed.

That sounds nice from a UD PR perspective, but once you realize those "national championships" are claimed after winning something called the Boardwalk Bowl or no bowl at all they don't seem to carry the weight of an 1-AA or FCS championship.

In addition Division 1 was split into two divisions or sub-divisions so really D2 today was Small College Division when UD won those championships.

The argument isn't whether a playoff system is a better way to pick national champs - I think most of us agree a playoff system is the better way. But that doesn't mean that the decades of college football, and the national champions that came with those decades of college football, are now moot because we came up with a better system in the 70's. A national champ was a national champ - period. I don't see Alabama or Notre Dame astericking their national titles back then just because AP or UPI voted on it rather than being decided in a playoff.

As for the split, what are you referring to? Up until the mid 70's, football was split between the major college division and the small college division. Very much like how today it's split between FBS and FCS today, with FCS being a step down from FBS. UD was and has always been in that "one step down" from the highest level of college football. What was small college then became DII and then DI-AA and now FCS. Just a bunch of name changes, really. Wasn't a big stink about going from I-AA to FCS, don't see why the other name changes should cause people so much grief.

[Saint3333]

I understand your position, but let's look at who UD beat to win the small college titles:

Rollins
Long Island CW Post
Bucknell

Guys congrats on the small college titles, but they are not at the same level of 1-AA/FCS titles. You guys were the best small college from the Northeast during those years. And I'm sure you would have beaten ASU like a drum back then, but to put those on equal footings with the FCS champions of the past 20 years is a knock to those champions including UD's FCS championship.

[Skjellyfetti]

Eh, split national titles were obviously more common back in the day of wire service rankings. I don't see a problem with the 1963 title - just part of the system back then. And the UNI was Northern Illinois, not Northern Iowa.

And of course, App State only has one I-AA title and two FCS titles, since we're being sticklers for terminology.

Huh? I haven't made an argument against Delaware's titles on the basis of terminology.

I've made it on the fact that you were still D-II in 1979 when Eastern Kentucky won the title... so Delaware claiming the 1979 D-II title as equivalent is absolutely laughable. And a shared title certainly deserves an asterisk.





Do Delaware fans consider NDSU an elite FCS program because they won 3 College Division National Titles in the 1960's?

[JBB]

Ill add just a little more for the Delaware fans to consider:

NDSU won 5 NC since the inception of the playoffs for a total of 8.
The NDSU BISON have an overall 37-14 playoff record to date.

Thats a big reason NDSU gets a +5 in football tradition.

[GannonFan]

I understand your position, but let's look at who UD beat to win the small college titles:

Rollins
Long Island CW Post
Bucknell

Guys congrats on the small college titles, but they are not at the same level of 1-AA/FCS titles. You guys were the best small college from the Northeast during those years. And I'm sure you would have beaten ASU like a drum back then, but to put those on equal footings with the FCS champions of the past 20 years is a knock to those champions including UD's FCS championship.

But again, you're pretty much exposing yourself as completely unknowledgeable of the level of football back in the day. Believe it or not, Bucknell used to be a good program. And of course, in the year that UD beat Bucknell to end the season as national champs, they also beat major college participants Temple and villanova. They beat Rutgers in another one of those years (of course, that goes the other way, Rutgers back then sucked compared to what they are now, although really they still suck a little bit now). Sure the names look funny when you look back 30, 40, 50, or 60 years, but I'm sure you aren't all that old so of course the names would look odd. Of course, voters in 1946 actually had Delaware as #19, in the final AP poll, so apparently they thought a little more of the teams UD played back then than you do. But since those votes actually lived then and knew about those teams, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt over you in this one.

You still can't get around the fact that there have always, always been levels of football - and UD has always (well, except for that 2 year window when I-AA was starting up) been at the next level down from the top level of college football. Just like they are today.

[GannonFan]

Ill add just a little more for the Delaware fans to consider:

NDSU won 5 NC since the inception of the playoffs for a total of 8.
The NDSU BISON have an overall 37-14 playoff record to date.

Thats a big reason NDSU gets a +5 in football tradition.

And almost all of that playoff success happened in the 3rd level of college football (down from the top level and then down from the I-AA/FCS level). That's a nice history and all, but it's clearly a step lower than what UD rightfully claims as legit national titles playing in the second level of college football.

[89Hen]

Now compare them to another elite program, say the NDSU BISON:

Overall tradition: Their historic success is on a national scale. +5
Recent success: The BISON have been very successful. They made it to the 4th round of the playoffs last year and have been ranked #1 several times in the past 5 years. They are perennially a nationally ranked team currently top 10. +5

[GannonFan]

And of course, App State only has one I-AA title and two FCS titles, since we're being sticklers for terminology.

Huh? I haven't made an argument against Delaware's titles on the basis of terminology.

I've made it on the fact that you were still D-II in 1979 when Eastern Kentucky won the title... so Delaware claiming the 1979 D-II title as equivalent is absolutely laughable. And a shared title certainly deserves an asterisk.





Do Delaware fans consider NDSU an elite FCS program because they won 3 College Division National Titles in the 1960's?

Well, it's only laughable if you just ignore the fact that I-AA was in transition from 1978 to about 1982 when it finally had a large swell of teams join I-AA. Especially those first two years, it was only a handful of teams. The big influxes into I-AA happened in the 1980-1982 timeframes. Heck, UD in 1979 beat Lehigh, who would go on to be in the I-AA championship game. So I'll certainly asterisk one of the 6 national titles UD has one for that, but for those who actually were alive when I-AA came into being, again, it was more of a name change as opposed to some great fundamental shift in what was played on the field.

And shared titles happened all the time before playoffs came about - just the nature of the beast back in the day.

[89Hen]

Arguing about long ago championships is silly to be honest. Harvard has everyone beat if we go far enough back. But on the flip side, there are a lot of guys showing how young they are. They simply don't know much about our brand of football in the 70's.

[dgreenwell3]

I was at the Indiana State-Youngstown State game last year. If that's an "elite" program, then the word Elite is being used to describe wayyyy too many programs.
I think YSU will be respectable this year but I dont expect them to finish top 5, and those attendance figures of those are the most skewed I have ever seen.

[Saint3333]

Let me make this easier for you guys to understand. When I and the majority of 1-AA/FCS fans count division one titles I don't include small college or D2 titles. Be happy with the fact that you were successful at the Small College/D2 level, but don't try to sell the rest of us on your titles being equal to the current FCS title.

Also ASU wants your Lambert and ECAC "awards" for 2007. How can you claim to be the best in the east? You need to change it to the northeast at a minimum.

[89Hen]

Let me make this easier for you guys to understand. When I and the majority of 1-AA/FCS fans count division one titles I don't include small college or D2 titles. Be happy with the fact that you were successful at the Small College/D2 level, but don't try to sell the rest of us on your titles being equal to the current FCS title.

Why do you count I-AA titles? There is no I-AA anymore.

Delaware opponents in 1979: Rhode Island, Temple, Lehigh, Villanova, William and Mary, Maine, Youngstown, Colgate...

[AZGrizFan]

Ill add just a little more for the Delaware fans to consider:

NDSU won 5 NC since the inception of the playoffs for a total of 8.
The NDSU BISON have an overall 37-14 playoff record to date.

Thats a big reason NDSU gets a +5 in football tradition.

D-II tradition doesn't count.

[Saint3333]

Let me make this easier for you guys to understand. When I and the majority of 1-AA/FCS fans count division one titles I don't include small college or D2 titles. Be happy with the fact that you were successful at the Small College/D2 level, but don't try to sell the rest of us on your titles being equal to the current FCS title.

Why do you count I-AA titles? There is no I-AA anymore.

Delaware opponents in 1979: Rhode Island, Temple, Lehigh, Villanova, William and Mary, Maine, Youngstown, Colgate...

Your arguing name changes will only help my point of view as Small College was renamed D2.

I'm fine with only counting FCS titles, ASU is the only two time winner so far.

[DJH]

If you have to make any argument whatsoever to try and justify if your national championship is in fact a national championship, then it probably is not.

[dgreenwell3]

If you have to make any argument whatsoever to try and justify if your national championship is in fact a national championship, then it probably is not.

(High five)

[93henfan]

If you have to make any argument whatsoever to try and justify if your national championship is in fact a national championship, then it probably is not.

So to be clear, UNI still has zero titles, right?

[DJH]

If you have to make any argument whatsoever to try and justify if your national championship is in fact a national championship, then it probably is not.

So to be clear, UNI still has zero titles, right?

Right.

Unwarranted shot at UNI. Did that one sting you a bit or what?

[89Hen]

Your arguing name changes will only help my point of view as Small College was renamed D2.

Small College wasn't renamed anything, it went away when I-AA was formed. Some of the teams that were Small College went D2 and some went I-AA in 1978. Many more went from D2 to I-AA in '79 and '80. The first two years of I-AA were nothing compared to what they were a few years later. We've said, don't count the '79 title.

[89Hen]

D-II tradition doesn't count.

Only through 1979.

[clenz]

So to be clear, UNI still has zero titles, right?

Right.

Unwarranted shot at UNI. Did that one sting you a bit or what?

Yeah, I don't get that shot at UNI either. I thought you had a legit point.

[93henfan]

Right.

Unwarranted shot at UNI. Did that one sting you a bit or what?

Yeah, I don't get that shot at UNI either. I thought you had a legit point.

A legit point?

Delaware has six national championships, no explanation necessary. DJH's point was idiotic.