Colorado State Pueblo Pistol Whipping Sam Houston State

[89Hen]

There was that Pittsburgh St. vs. Youngstown matchup in the '90s where YSU won 10-7. What was the other one?

Actually it's been a while. The two meetings between I-AA and D-II champions were as follows:

1980 D-II champ Cal Poly 23, I-AA champ Boise State 20
1994 I-AA champ Youngstown State 17, D-II champ North Alabama 14

1980 was a curious time for D-1AA and D-2. 1AA started in 1978 with just a handful of teams. Delaware won the D2 championship in 79 just before beginning the transition to D-1AA and probably would have taken any of the handful of teams that had made the switch already.

You're wasting your breath 93. I had this same discussion with JSO a year ago and I pointed out then that 1980 was a time when there wasn't really a difference between D2 and I-AA. I also showed him several D2 champs who lost their I-AA games in the year they won the title. North Alabama was a D2 dynasty in the early/mid 90's. It would be like AppSt beating Michigan. Obviously it happened, but both were monumental upsets that are the real outliers.

[JohnStOnge]

You're wasting your breath 93. I had this same discussion with JSO a year ago and I pointed out then that 1980 was a time when there wasn't really a difference between D2 and I-AA. I also showed him several D2 champs who lost their I-AA games in the year they won the title. North Alabama was a D2 dynasty in the early/mid 90's. It would be like AppSt beating Michigan. Obviously it happened, but both were monumental upsets that are the real outliers.

D2 champs haven't played I-AA teams much. If you go by all D2 playoff teams vs. I-AA teams over any reasonable period whether it's 1978 present or something like 1998 to present the D2 playoff teams are going to have a solid winning record against I-AA/FCS competition. It's a WHOLE lot better than I-AA/FCS playoff teams have done against I-A/FBS.

I went ahead and looked at just D2 champs against I-AA/FCS since 1990 and I only found three games. The results are:

1992 Jacksonville State 0, Georgia Southern (7-4) 10
1992 Jacksonville State 59, Alcorn State (7-4, I-AA playoffs 1st round) 45
1994 North Alabama 14, Youngstown State (14-0-1, I-AA national champ) 17

Looks to me like the D2 champs were very competitive each time. The comparison to App State vs. Michigan is ridiculous. Find me an instance in which a I-AA/FCS squad played an undefeated I-A/FBS national champion down to the wire in a three point loss.

Another thing: Florida Atlantic finished as a top 5 I-AA in 2003. Valdosta State beat them 45-17. Find me an instance in which a team that finished in the I-A/FBS top five got pistol whipped like that by a I-AA/FCS school.

It's obvious that there is not nearly as much difference between the top of D2 and the top if FCS as there is between the top of FCS and the top of FBS. Proportionately, it is not unusual at ALL for I-AA/FCS teams to lose to playoff caliber D2s.

[JohnStOnge]

BTW I have a database on another computer on D2 playoff teams vs. I-AA/FCS teams. I have to bring a power chord home to use that computer because the battery is shot so I can't get to it right now (this computer doesn't have the database software on it). It would need to be updated for the most recent few years. But I know from memory that when I was keeping up with it D2 playoff teams were beating I-AA/FCS opponents somewhere around 60% of the time. And having very good I-AA FCS teams taken down by very good D2 teams has been a LOT more common, proportionately, than having very good I-A/FBS teams taken down by very good I-AA/FBS teams. Also competitive games.

Take even something like FCS national champ Eastern Washington squeaking by D2 playoff team Central Washington 35-32 in 2010. Find me an example of a I-AA/FCS challenging any I-A/FBS national champion like that. What's the CLOSEST score you can find between a I-A national champion and a I-AA/FCS? And yes I realize there hasn't been a true playoff champion in I-A/FBS but you know what I'm talking about. Good luck finding a margin less than 3 touchdowns.

[Mvemjsunpx]

BTW I have a database on another computer on D2 playoff teams vs. I-AA/FCS teams. I have to bring a power chord home to use that computer because the battery is shot so I can't get to it right now (this computer doesn't have the database software on it). It would need to be updated for the most recent few years. But I know from memory that when I was keeping up with it D2 playoff teams were beating I-AA/FCS opponents somewhere around 60% of the time. And having very good I-AA FCS teams taken down by very good D2 teams has been a LOT more common, proportionately, than having very good I-A/FBS teams taken down by very good I-AA/FBS teams. Also competitive games.

Take even something like FCS national champ Eastern Washington squeaking by D2 playoff team Central Washington 35-32 in 2010. Find me an example of a I-AA/FCS challenging any I-A/FBS national champion like that. What's the CLOSEST score you can find between a I-A national champion and a I-AA/FCS? And yes I realize there hasn't been a true playoff champion in I-A/FBS but you know what I'm talking about. Good luck finding a margin less than 3 touchdowns.

There probably isn't a FBS champion comparison. However, a good-but-not-great EWU team nearly beat the Oregon State squad that won the Fiesta Bowl in 2000.

[89Hen]

I went ahead and looked at just D2 champs against I-AA/FCS since 1990 and I only found three games. The results are:

1992 Jacksonville State 0, Georgia Southern (7-4) 10
1992 Jacksonville State 59, Alcorn State (7-4, I-AA playoffs 1st round) 45
1994 North Alabama 14, Youngstown State (14-0-1, I-AA national champ) 17

Looks to me like the D2 champs were very competitive each time.

1987 and 1989 were also instances. Mississippi College lost to a 5-6 McNeese and Troy tied a 5-5-1 Nicholls.

Trying to prop up Alcorn as "I-AA playoffs 1st round" is a joke JSO and I'm sure you know that. 0-18. That's what the SWAC was all time in the playoffs. Alcorn was 0-3 outside of the SWAC and lost in the first round 78-27.

[GannonFan]

I think an interesting part of this debate, though, is how few times a really top D2 team gets to play a good or really good FCS team. It begs the question, what was SHSU thinking in putting Pueblo on the schedule in the first place? You're already going to get the knock of playing a D2 team, but at least make sure you're going to win the game. Playing a D2 team that can beat you, as really any top 3 D2 team can do, is just bad scheduling.

[89Hen]

I think an interesting part of this debate, though, is how few times a really top D2 team gets to play a good or really good FCS team.

I'm sure there are more. We were both looking at D2 champs. I'll bet I can find some more semifinalists that played I-AA's.

[89Hen]

OK, maybe not. Northwest Missouri State never plays D1, nor does Grand Valley. That elminates half the semifinalists for the last 100 years. Looks like many of the D2's play a schedule of all conference games.

[kalm]

I think an interesting part of this debate, though, is how few times a really top D2 team gets to play a good or really good FCS team. It begs the question, what was SHSU thinking in putting Pueblo on the schedule in the first place? You're already going to get the knock of playing a D2 team, but at least make sure you're going to win the game. Playing a D2 team that can beat you, as really any top 3 D2 team can do, is just bad scheduling.

It might have something to do with season opener. I'm pretty sure that's how we ended up with an NAIA on the schedule. There probably weren't many options lest on the table at that point.

But I agree on scheduling DII powers. Notice to be gained and it bit us in the ass against CWU a few years ago.

[bearkat91]

I think an interesting part of this debate, though, is how few times a really top D2 team gets to play a good or really good FCS team. It begs the question, what was SHSU thinking in putting Pueblo on the schedule in the first place? You're already going to get the knock of playing a D2 team, but at least make sure you're going to win the game. Playing a D2 team that can beat you, as really any top 3 D2 team can do, is just bad scheduling.

It might have something to do with season opener. I'm pretty sure that's how we ended up with an NAIA on the schedule. There probably weren't many options lest on the table at that point.

But I agree on scheduling DII powers. Notice to be gained and it bit us in the ass against CWU a few years ago.

You're right, Kalm. We were supposed to play EWU last week but ended up playing CSU-P because the EWU game got moved. We got curb stomped by a much better coached team. Keeler has shown that he is truly a terrible coach. I'm afraid he's lost the team and will destroy any progress the program has made. The OC is trying desperately to make our QB something he isn't: a passer. He's a great athlete, but he isn't a passer. The fact that this staff didn't analyze what our personnel strengths were and adapt their game plan around that tells me they're not worth a shit. And because they're trying to squeeze a square peg into a round hole, they're getting their asses handed to them. The blame rests squarely on Keeler's shoulders.

[ChickenMan]

Keeler has shown that he is truly a terrible coach. I'm afraid he's lost the team and will destroy any progress the program has made.

KC seems to be establishing that opinion much faster at SHST than he did at UD.

[YoUDeeMan]

It might have something to do with season opener. I'm pretty sure that's how we ended up with an NAIA on the schedule. There probably weren't many options lest on the table at that point.

But I agree on scheduling DII powers. Notice to be gained and it bit us in the ass against CWU a few years ago.

You're right, Kalm. We were supposed to play EWU last week but ended up playing CSU-P because the EWU game got moved. We got curb stomped by a much better coached team. Keeler has shown that he is truly a terrible coach. I'm afraid he's lost the team and will destroy any progress the program has made. The OC is trying desperately to make our QB something he isn't: a passer. He's a great athlete, but he isn't a passer. The fact that this staff didn't analyze what our personnel strengths were and adapt their game plan around that tells me they're not worth a shit. And because they're trying to squeeze a square peg into a round hole, they're getting their asses handed to them. The blame rests squarely on Keeler's shoulders.

You guys have played the #2 FCS team...and were in it until the end, the #2 DII team, and the number 8 FBS team at LSU.

You also handily beat an FCS team that beat another ranked FCS team.

You've done this with a new system that has only been in place a few weeks...and with a lousy DC that was guaranteed a job. Why panic? You have a bye week to straighten things out, and then begin conference play. Win the conference, make the playoffs. You weren't making the playoffs with the mess that your old coach left behind...not even close.

On the other hand, UD had enough talent to make the playoffs last year, but blew leads at a faster rate than Monica Lewinsky blew Bill.

This year, we got smoked by Pitt (certainly no LSU), sleep walked through a win against a terrible DSU team, and just squeaked by a Colgate team in a game we had no business winning until a 4th quarter fumble changed things. We have an easy schedule, so we should make the playoffs again, but probably won't because our Commander in Chief decided that he didn't need any linemen. Next year doesn't look any better.

So far, you have the better of the trade...but we'll see how things work out. One thing is sure, we both need to get rid of our head Co-DC.

[bearkat91]

You're right, Kalm. We were supposed to play EWU last week but ended up playing CSU-P because the EWU game got moved. We got curb stomped by a much better coached team. Keeler has shown that he is truly a terrible coach. I'm afraid he's lost the team and will destroy any progress the program has made. The OC is trying desperately to make our QB something he isn't: a passer. He's a great athlete, but he isn't a passer. The fact that this staff didn't analyze what our personnel strengths were and adapt their game plan around that tells me they're not worth a shit. And because they're trying to squeeze a square peg into a round hole, they're getting their asses handed to them. The blame rests squarely on Keeler's shoulders.

You guys have played the #2 FCS team...and were in it until the end, the #2 DII team, and the number 8 FBS team at LSU.

You also handily beat an FCS team that beat another ranked FCS team.

You've done this with a new system that has only been in place a few weeks...and with a lousy DC that was guaranteed a job. Why panic? You have a bye week to straighten things out, and then begin conference play. Win the conference, make the playoffs. You weren't making the playoffs with the mess that your old coach left behind...not even close.

On the other hand, UD had enough talent to make the playoffs last year, but blew leads at a faster rate than Monica Lewinsky blew Bill.

This year, we got smoked by Pitt (certainly no LSU), sleep walked through a win against a terrible DSU team, and just squeaked by a Colgate team in a game we had no business winning until a 4th quarter fumble changed things. We have an easy schedule, so we should make the playoffs again, but probably won't because our Commander in Chief decided that he didn't need any linemen. Next year doesn't look any better.

So far, you have the better of the trade...but we'll see how things work out. One thing is sure, we both need to get rid of our head Co-DC.

I'm panicking because I saw a team flat out quit last week. In the post-game press conference, one of our players made a statement that the players just need to buy into the system. That tells me that the players have NOT bought into the system. And I think that doesn't bode well for us. The other thing that bothers me is, while CSU-P is ranked #2, they only fund 28 scholarships. We have half of their entire scholarships in FBS transfers (15). But rather than beating a team where we have more than twice as many scholarships as them, we got our shit pushed in and man-handled in all 3 phases of the game. The coaches obviously didn't have the team prepared to come out and play and it showed. I hope the bye week is just what we need. I hope the coaches can make the necessary adjustments to turn the ship around. I'll cross my fingers but I won't hold my breath.

On a side note, I lived in Baltimore from 2003-2011. I wish I had known about this site when I lived there. I would have loved to have met up with the UD fans.

[JohnStOnge]

I am wondering how you people can say Keeler is a terrible head coach based on his Delaware tenure when he won a I-AA national championship at Delaware and Tubby Raymond was never able to do that. Then he WOULD have won a second one had it not been for a questionable spot of the ball on a fourth down play in 2010.

He got Delaware to the national title game 3 times in 11 years as coach there. Tubby Raymond got them there once in 25 I-AA seasons before that.

And I'm not mentioning Tubby Raymond to put him down. I'm mentioning him because he was a GREAT head coach. A legend.

I mean really. How can you possibly say Keeler is a terrible head coach based on what he did at Delaware?

[ChickenMan]

KC had three great years.. but he had a lot more piss poor ones and those numerous shitty seasons are the reasons many UD fans are happy he's gone. Tubby Raymond may not have won an FCS title.. but unlike KC.. he did consistently produce a quality product. Tubby had 6 poor seasons in 36 years.. KC had 6 bad seasons in 11 years. Winning a title was great.. but it doesn't excuse all those failures.. failures that led UD to their current sad state.

[bearkat91]

KC had three great years.. but he had a lot more piss poor ones and those numerous shitty seasons are the reasons many UD fans are happy he's gone. Tubby Raymond may not have won an FCS title.. but unlike KC.. he did consistently produce a quality product. Tubby had 6 poor seasons in 36 years.. KC had 6 bad seasons in 11 years. Winning a title was great.. but it doesn't excuse all those failures.. failures that led UD to their current sad state.

And this (the inconsistency) is exactly what had me worried when they announced he was the next head coach. I realize he's only coached four games for SHSU, but what I've seen in those four games is not impressive by any means. Everyone knew we would get beaten by LSU. Everyone knew beating EWU was a long shot, at best. We beat Alabama State. They are a pretty good team. But to lose, badly, to a team with 28 scholarships when we have 63 scholarships is unacceptable. So far, he reminds me of Ron Randleman, who had a winning percentage of barely over .500 in the 20 plus years he was head coach at SHSU. Fritz proved SHSU can be a winner and Keeler is proving he's a really bad head coach. I hope Keeler proves me wrong, but I don't think he will.

[89Hen]

KC had three great years.. but he had a lot more piss poor ones and those numerous shitty seasons are the reasons many UD fans are happy he's gone. Tubby Raymond may not have won an FCS title.. but unlike KC.. he did consistently produce a quality product. Tubby had 6 poor seasons in 36 years.. KC had 6 bad seasons in 11 years. Winning a title was great.. but it doesn't excuse all those failures.. failures that led UD to their current sad state.

I'm glad CM said "many". Not all of us were unhappy with 3 trips to the NC. I'd much rather have that than making the playoffs every single year but never advancing to the finals or semis. That's more for UNH fans.

[GannonFan]

KC had three great years.. but he had a lot more piss poor ones and those numerous shitty seasons are the reasons many UD fans are happy he's gone. Tubby Raymond may not have won an FCS title.. but unlike KC.. he did consistently produce a quality product. Tubby had 6 poor seasons in 36 years.. KC had 6 bad seasons in 11 years. Winning a title was great.. but it doesn't excuse all those failures.. failures that led UD to their current sad state.

Let's be honest, though, the issues with the program's "current state" have little to do with KC and have much more to do with the de-emphasis on football by the administration at UD. The sourness in the UD program began around just after the playoff run in 2007. So KC was on the job for 5 years, won one national title and lost in the finals in another, and made the playoffs and got to the quarters in another year. So that's 5 years, 3 playoffs, two appearances in the national title game and 1 title in that. Not really that bad of a run to start off with. But right after that, in 2008, the administration begins to horribly roll out the UDAF program of mandatory donations, coupled with putting into place numerous restrictions in and out of the stadium, and the season ticket holder base, that was pushing past 11k, all of sudden shrinks to about 9k (about a 20% decline). People started to sour on the program long before KC started to stink it up on the field. Heck, in 2010, UD got to the national title game again and nobody showed up that year. So that was 8 years and 3 national title appearances and the program was in free-fall from a support standpoint.

KC deserved to get fired when he did. Frankly, I thought he was starting to mail it in during the last few years (I'm sure the death of his brother didn't help things either). But the program soured for reasons that had nothing to do with the on-field product. Hence why just changing the coach is really window dressing and the sourness continues with the program today. They killed the golden goose and I'm not sure what they could do to ressurect it at this point.

[YoUDeeMan]

UD's administration killed the golden goose.

They promised us, and KC, a new stadium...and we all got hand rails.

The crowd left, even when we were winning, so don't listen to those bitter people blaming things on KC. KC had a winning history long before he came to UD...and he'll continue winning down in SHSU.

KC is handcuffed with a DC from the prior regime who was promised a job by your clown AD.

Brock handcuffed himself with his own DC (one who had an atrocious record prior to arriving at UD).

It is a race to the playoffs. Even with UD's soft schedule, you'll probably make it to the playoffs before UD.

[bearkat91]

UD's administration killed the golden goose.

They promised us, and KC, a new stadium...and we all got hand rails.

The crowd left, even when we were winning, so don't listen to those bitter people blaming things on KC. KC had a winning history long before he came to UD...and he'll continue winning down in SHSU.

KC is handcuffed with a DC from the prior regime who was promised a job by your clown AD.

Brock handcuffed himself with his own DC (one who had an atrocious record prior to arriving at UD).

It is a race to the playoffs. Even with UD's soft schedule, you'll probably make it to the playoffs before UD.

I completely agree about Keeler being handcuffed with the DC. But Keeler hired Sherrod as co-defensive coordinator. I would think he could hand the reins of the defense to Sherrod, but maybe that's not the case. Either way, I'll hope for the best this year but I'm not optimistic.