SHOULD NDSU GET TF OUTTA FCS?

[89Hen]

If the Patriots left the AFC East, the Bills, Jets and Dolphins would win the division. Therefore it would be stronger without the Patriots since other teams filled the void.

[Pwns]

Nothing from Massey is interesting.

So predictable 89. You and 93 are the Bittermen of the forum.

The FCS is alive and well. Massey and Sagarin computer rankings are only one way to measure teams. Are they perfect, especially for football, definitely not. Whether you want to consider number of NFL athletes, or computer calculations, or consider that the athletes today are for the most part bigger, stronger and faster than those of some of the years mentioned in this thread, doesn't matter. It boils down to opinion and perspective from what I see in these posts.

Bison fans are pro, lots of other FCS fans are in the middle, Hen fans have an agenda to prove that their great teams of the past were playing better competition and are hanging on to the past.

Just a few observations from looking at the list in the link Gil posted:

1. 2018 NDSU is not better than 1996 Marshall. I don't think 2013 NDSU is better than 1996 MArshall either, but I'll stick with pointing out what I think is more obvious and what most who are familiar with the history of the subdivision would agree with.

2. Just as a Georgia Southern fan, I find it interesting how high 2012 NDSU is on that list. That 2012 Bison team got all they could handle and lost in almost every statistical sense except for the scoreboard from GSU. Our 2012 team was good but our 1999 team was on a completely different level from that team and better on offense at every position.

3. Where is 1996 Montana? They beat Oregon State 35-14 and went undefeated in the regular-season and then won their playoff games 48-3, 44-14, and 70-7 before getting blown out by Marshall. Sorry, but I'm sure they're better than at least some of the teams on that list.

All in all I'm not a big computer rankings skeptic but I'm skeptical of using rankings across years to make. There's pretty much universal agreement the CAA, SoCon, and Montana are not as good as they used to be. Between that and the attrition it seems to me to be a really hard sell to say it's as good as it's ever been.

[Gil Dobie]

If the Patriots left the AFC East, the Bills, Jets and Dolphins would win the division. Therefore it would be stronger without the Patriots since other teams filled the void.

Pretty lame comparison coming from you. No one has replaced GSU and App St in the Southern Conference. JMU and NDSU are right up there with the best GSU and App St teams. It should be like the AFC East adding a team better than the Patriots and one of the other 3 getting better than the Pats, after the Patriots left.

[89Hen]

If the Patriots left the AFC East, the Bills, Jets and Dolphins would win the division. Therefore it would be stronger without the Patriots since other teams filled the void.

Pretty lame comparison coming from you. No one has replaced GSU and App St in the Southern Conference. JMU and NDSU are right up there with the best GSU and App St teams. It should be like the AFC East adding a team better than the Patriots and one of the other 3 getting better than the Pats, after the Patriots left.

We're done here. You've gone full mental.

[JohnStOnge]

Middle of the pack as measured against the mainstream of the FBS. When you see former FCS programs that have glittering records over numbers of seasons it's because they have been playing weak schedules that include few members of the mainstream.

Mainstream ain’t exactly a defining bar.

I would suggest a significant number of bowl teams are above .500 due to FCS and bottom feeder G5 wins. Also, see SEC Alabama scheduling. Meanwhile BSU frequently schedules FSU, Oregon, Oklahoma State, BYU....

I don't disagree with the statement about bowl teams but, by Sagarin, Boise State's schedule was rated 49th while Boise State's was rated 78th. Boise State played two Power 5 teams. They beat 6-7 Florida State 36-31 and lost to 8-5 Washington by 38-7. Alabama played 10 Power 5 teams. Their two losses were by 5 to #1 LSU and by 3 to #14 Auburn.

[SuperHornet]

This isn't a case of NDSU being St. Thomas. As far as I'm concerned, FCS is a MUCH better brand of football simply because there's a legitimate playoff. NDSU is VERY good, but they're not so much better than everyone else that it's unfair (like St. Thomas), even if someone wants to whine (like some of the other schools in St. Thomas' league chose to). They belong here, as do CCU, Liberty, App State, and every team that's moved up in recent years, not to mention the MAC, the Sun Belch, and the new WAC....

[JBB]

The Bison dominated D2 and D2 made rules pushing several big programs out, NDSU was one of them. Now The Bison dominate FCS. I don't see the FCS making any rules to change the landscape.

Of course, some of the programs that have left were replaced by NDSU and SDSU as well as Cal Poly and Cal Davis. UND took an open spot too.

The Bison of today are better than any of the old teams mentioned. It cant be proven except by looking at the record.

[kalm]

If the Patriots left the AFC East, the Bills, Jets and Dolphins would win the division. Therefore it would be stronger without the Patriots since other teams filled the void.

And one of them or a new franchise went on to win 8 Superbowls.

[UNI88]

The Bison dominated D2 and D2 made rules pushing several big programs out, NDSU was one of them. Now The Bison dominate FCS. I don't see the FCS making any rules to change the landscape.

Of course, some of the programs that have left were replaced by NDSU and SDSU as well as Cal Poly and Cal Davis. UND took an open spot too.

The Bison of today are better than any of the old teams mentioned. It cant be proven except by looking at the record.

How many years from NDSU's last D2 championship before they moved up to FCS? How many NCC championships did they win in those years between winning their last D2 national championship and moving up? Who was the dominant team in the NCCS during that time?

Did D2 rules changes keep them from winning D2 natties? Sounds like a sour grapes excuse.

[Gil Dobie]

The Bison dominated D2 and D2 made rules pushing several big programs out, NDSU was one of them. Now The Bison dominate FCS. I don't see the FCS making any rules to change the landscape.

Of course, some of the programs that have left were replaced by NDSU and SDSU as well as Cal Poly and Cal Davis. UND took an open spot too.

The Bison of today are better than any of the old teams mentioned. It cant be proven except by looking at the record.

How many years from NDSU's last D2 championship before they moved up to FCS? How many NCC championships did they win in those years between winning their last D2 national championship and moving up? Who was the dominant team in the NCCS during that time?

Did D2 rules changes keep them from winning D2 natties? Sounds like a sour grapes excuse.

There were a few things that happened over the years. The main thing was the reduction of scholarships to 36. It took away depth for programs that could afford the original number of scholarships, somewhere in the 40's for football. Instead of NDSU offering full rides or partial rides to a top athlete, another school would come along and offer more to that player, NDSU wanted for depth. This evened the playing field in DII. NDSU's last year in DII was another example. In 2003 they defeated a I-AA playoff team in Montana. The Montana win counted less then a DII win, therefore, NDSU was out of the playoffs. If they had won against a patsy DII, they would have had the points to make the playoffs. Last DII title was 1990, made the playoffs 6 times until going FCs in 2004.

[BlackFalkin]

All NDSU needs is a stadium expansion to compete with other FBS teams in their region.
P5 Iowa/70k
P5 ISU/60k
P5 Minnesota/50k
——
Go5 Wyo/30k
Go5 Boise St/36k
Go5 CSU/36k
Go5 WMU/30k
Go5 Ball St/22k
Go5 NIU/24k

If NDSU renovated their indoor facility a bit and replaced SOME chairback seating with bench seating in the end zones for example, they could have a 25k-30k seat facility capable of housing an FBS program. Cut the crap.

[BlackFalkin]

Liberty, Coastal, App State & Georgia Southern have all moved up and had some success although I haven’t tracked Liberty. It bothers me how much west coast (and midwest) programs refuse to upgrade their facilities. You want action at an FBS national championship? Build your program & facilities like LSU does. Wanna know why the PAC-12 was left out of the playoffs? ASU just took down the upper deck, Arizona & Cal never sell out, OSU, UO, WSU, Utah, Colorado & Stanford all have ~50k seat stadiums, that is on the low-end of P5 programs. Is it a coincidence NDSU has one of the best FCS stadiums? How about Montana, MSU, Weber State, JMU, UNI, SDSU etc..

[AshevilleApp]

I'm an interested outsider in this, but here goes. NDSU could immediately be competitive, probably upper tier, as a G5 team if they were to move up. That much is obvious. JMU could as well to a lesser degree. I also think a number of other FCS teams could be competitive with the commitment to do so. But unless NDSU gets an invite from the AAC, why would they? They have a good thing going, with really only one (maybe a couple more) team (s) being competitive with them. And they avoid the financial burden that is associated with the move.

I also think that FCS is less competitive than it was. Sorry Gil and Kalm, but you can't lose what the sub-division has and remain as strong. And I'm not talking about just App and GSU; but Marshall, Western Kentucky, Boise State, ULM, Troy, Texas State, etc. Other FCS schools have apparently decided not to be competitive (Delaware).

[BlackFalkin]

Clemson, whom was criticized for a “weak schedule” this season, plays in the ACC which is regarded as a weak conference, with the exception of FSU, all other stadiums are ~60k or below... coincidence? I think not. Leave the FCS bison, it’s simply time to go!

[JBB]

How many years from NDSU's last D2 championship before they moved up to FCS? How many NCC championships did they win in those years between winning their last D2 national championship and moving up? Who was the dominant team in the NCCS during that time?

Did D2 rules changes keep them from winning D2 natties? Sounds like a sour grapes excuse.

There were a few things that happened over the years. The main thing was the reduction of scholarships to 36. It took away depth for programs that could afford the original number of scholarships, somewhere in the 40's for football. Instead of NDSU offering full rides or partial rides to a top athlete, another school would come along and offer more to that player, NDSU wanted for depth. This evened the playing field in DII. NDSU's last year in DII was another example. In 2003 they defeated a I-AA playoff team in Montana. The Montana win counted less then a DII win, therefore, NDSU was out of the playoffs. If they had won against a patsy DII, they would have had the points to make the playoffs. Last DII title was 1990, made the playoffs 6 times until going FCs in 2004.

At the time fans called them the NDSU rules. Don’t forget regionalization of the D2 playoffs that kept deserving teams out was also an issue.

With all the great FCS schools gone to FBS weakening the division I guess it’s safe to say the FBS is much stronger?

The record shows NDSU is the best FCS school ever. They were also the best D2 school. The Bison were also one of the best in the small college division before FCS etc. many schools currently in FCS were once in the small college and later D2 divisions. Some have moved on to FBS. Now, as an FCS school NDSU is vying to become one of the best FBS schools if they can keep the current streak alive. The FBS teams NDSU has left in its wake said they were “down too”.

I guess with everyone down it’s easy to be the best. The question why aren’t other good programs beating up on the division too? Why is it just NDSU.

When NDSU moved into the FCS fans were told the division was just too good for them. Now we are told it was actually down.

NDSU is among the most successful program in the history of the FCS and college football in general.

[Gil Dobie]

I'm an interested outsider in this, but here goes. NDSU could immediately be competitive, probably upper tier, as a G5 team if they were to move up. That much is obvious. JMU could as well to a lesser degree. I also think a number of other FCS teams could be competitive with the commitment to do so. But unless NDSU gets an invite from the AAC, why would they? They have a good thing going, with really only one (maybe a couple more) team (s) being competitive with them. And they avoid the financial burden that is associated with the move.

I also think that FCS is less competitive than it was. Sorry Gil and Kalm, but you can't lose what the sub-division has and remain as strong. And I'm not talking about just App and GSU; but Marshall, Western Kentucky, Boise State, ULM, Troy, Texas State, etc. Other FCS schools have apparently decided not to be competitive (Delaware).

Also a lot of good DII schools have moved up, NDSU, SDSU, USD, UND, Central Arkansas, Elon, Stony Brook, North Alabama, UC Davis, Cal Poly, Kennesaw St, Monmouth. The only teams that moved up, that I ever hear about anymore are Boise St and Marshall. The rest I have to dig into ESPN to find out, except GSU played in Minnesota this year. Gophers played a soft schedule and could have been beat by SDSU and/or GSU.

[Gil Dobie]

All NDSU needs is a stadium expansion to compete with other FBS teams in their region.
P5 Iowa/70k
P5 ISU/60k
P5 Minnesota/50k
——
Go5 Wyo/30k
Go5 Boise St/36k
Go5 CSU/36k
Go5 WMU/30k
Go5 Ball St/22k
Go5 NIU/24k

If NDSU renovated their indoor facility a bit and replaced SOME chairback seating with bench seating in the end zones for example, they could have a 25k-30k seat facility capable of housing an FBS program. Cut the crap.

You got some money to donate for a new stadium? The current Fargodome cannot be expanded and you wouldn't add enough seats by taking out the chairs. An outdoor stadium would drop attendance for cold weather games. The cold isn't so bad, then you add the wind and it gets pretty bad.

[UNI88]

How many years from NDSU's last D2 championship before they moved up to FCS? How many NCC championships did they win in those years between winning their last D2 national championship and moving up? Who was the dominant team in the NCCS during that time?

Did D2 rules changes keep them from winning D2 natties? Sounds like a sour grapes excuse.

There were a few things that happened over the years. The main thing was the reduction of scholarships to 36. It took away depth for programs that could afford the original number of scholarships, somewhere in the 40's for football. Instead of NDSU offering full rides or partial rides to a top athlete, another school would come along and offer more to that player, NDSU wanted for depth. This evened the playing field in DII. NDSU's last year in DII was another example. In 2003 they defeated a I-AA playoff team in Montana. The Montana win counted less then a DII win, therefore, NDSU was out of the playoffs. If they had won against a patsy DII, they would have had the points to make the playoffs. Last DII title was 1990, made the playoffs 6 times until going FCs in 2004.

How did UND do with the reduced # of scholarships? Blaming reduced success on restrictions that applied to everyone at that level is sour grapes.

[JBB]

Sickening liberal leftist mayor Jon lingern was the obama of Fargo politics at the time. He did a lot of damage trying to protect the environment against Fargo’s growth by stifling it every chance he got. He was against growth unless it had to do with building bike paths everywhere so his bike store would do well.

One of his projects was to kill the Fargo Dome. He did his best reducing the plan from a 2 tier stadium that could have been expanded to 30,000+ to the compromise we see today. The man might still be around today putting down Christians In the unreadable leftist rag the Fargo forum. don’t know for sure never read it anymore.

[Gil Dobie]

There were a few things that happened over the years. The main thing was the reduction of scholarships to 36. It took away depth for programs that could afford the original number of scholarships, somewhere in the 40's for football. Instead of NDSU offering full rides or partial rides to a top athlete, another school would come along and offer more to that player, NDSU wanted for depth. This evened the playing field in DII. NDSU's last year in DII was another example. In 2003 they defeated a I-AA playoff team in Montana. The Montana win counted less then a DII win, therefore, NDSU was out of the playoffs. If they had won against a patsy DII, they would have had the points to make the playoffs. Last DII title was 1990, made the playoffs 6 times until going FCs in 2004.

How did UND do with the reduced # of scholarships? Blaming reduced success on restrictions that applied to everyone at that level is sour grapes.

It helped them, they got those players by offering more than NDSU. By calling sour grapes, you don't understand how money makes the world go round. It was a big drop, like 8 or 10 scholarships. Now instead of 30 schools offering the max, you get 80 schools offering the max for example. A key injury here and there, and no depth, it's not as easy to win. Then you fire a good coach and get a bad coach. It takes time to recover.

[JBB]

There were a few things that happened over the years. The main thing was the reduction of scholarships to 36. It took away depth for programs that could afford the original number of scholarships, somewhere in the 40's for football. Instead of NDSU offering full rides or partial rides to a top athlete, another school would come along and offer more to that player, NDSU wanted for depth. This evened the playing field in DII. NDSU's last year in DII was another example. In 2003 they defeated a I-AA playoff team in Montana. The Montana win counted less then a DII win, therefore, NDSU was out of the playoffs. If they had won against a patsy DII, they would have had the points to make the playoffs. Last DII title was 1990, made the playoffs 6 times until going FCs in 2004.

How did UND do with the reduced # of scholarships? Blaming reduced success on restrictions that applied to everyone at that level is sour grapes.

They supported the rules. They were trying to keep their D1 hockey program afloat. They loved a cheap, competitive D2 North Central Conference. Made them look good. They couldn’t afford to move up and stay competitive. They actively campaigned against NDSU moving up and assured the NCC they would stay on in D2.

You do know that sour grapes means disparaging something that is unattainable. It’s what you do when disparaging NDSUs success.

There was no blame. The division made rules that would have required larger D2 programs to shrink and the playoff rules were no longer acceptable to several large D2 programs. NDSU felt they had to move. They did and now dominate FCS like they dominated D2, pushing other programs like UNI out of the spotlight.

[JBB]

1. 2018 NDSU is not better than 1996 Marshall. I don't think 2013 NDSU is better than 1996 MArshall either, but I'll stick with pointing out what I think is more obvious and what most who are familiar with the history of the subdivision would agree with.

No one can ever mention the ‘96 Marshall team without somebody bringing up the Bison. That’s the way it is.

Marshall May have been good at the time but the FCS was down.

I was on the 50 for that classic GSU game. We stayed at the Radisson downtown where GSU was as well. The lobby bar was spilling out into the street after the game. GSU coaches were stunned. It was really quite a moment in college football. One of the greatest games in history was still filling the air with its drama and excitement. It was a huge game.

GSU flew out that night. Had a nice time talking with the coaches before they left. I guess that game was the last before the FCS collapse, or was it just an indication of the downward spiral?

[JBB]

In the Bison Lore there is a well known phenomenon called “Knocking the stuffing out of them”. Often times when the Bison upset a program it takes them a while to recover. Sometimes they don’t especially if they have the stuffing knocked out of them in successive years like UNI or SIU.

It happened to Montana, KSU, Iowa, Central Mich and others. If allegations are true, Looks like it happens to divisions too. First the stuffing was knocked out of D2, now the FCS.

[BlackFalkin]

All NDSU needs is a stadium expansion to compete with other FBS teams in their region.
P5 Iowa/70k
P5 ISU/60k
P5 Minnesota/50k
——
Go5 Wyo/30k
Go5 Boise St/36k
Go5 CSU/36k
Go5 WMU/30k
Go5 Ball St/22k
Go5 NIU/24k

If NDSU renovated their indoor facility a bitand replaced SOME chairback seating with bench seating in the end zones for example, they could have a 25k-30k seat facility capable of housing an FBS program. Cut the crap.

You got some money to donate for a new stadium? The current Fargodome cannot be expanded and you wouldn't add enough seats by taking out the chairs. An outdoor stadium would drop attendance for cold weather games. The cold isn't so bad, then you add the wind and it gets pretty bad.

Are you blind or just dumb? I said “expand by replacing chairback with benches...” I’m sure NDSU has more than enough of the green stuff with 19 sold-out home games in the past two seasons, not to mention 9 national championships in the past 10 years! Ooh, and the replacement benches for bench seating would cost a fortune! I know they’re at every high school football stadium everywhere and at almost ALL college football stadiums too, cut it out! Let’s not even talk bowl money split, television revenue, or better sponsorship. Hey, ask Eastern Washington about their bench seating, trust me THEY LOVE those damn benches.

All good runs come to an end, just take your trophies and leave the FCS, now!

[AshevilleApp]

I'm an interested outsider in this, but here goes. NDSU could immediately be competitive, probably upper tier, as a G5 team if they were to move up. That much is obvious. JMU could as well to a lesser degree. I also think a number of other FCS teams could be competitive with the commitment to do so. But unless NDSU gets an invite from the AAC, why would they? They have a good thing going, with really only one (maybe a couple more) team (s) being competitive with them. And they avoid the financial burden that is associated with the move.

I also think that FCS is less competitive than it was. Sorry Gil and Kalm, but you can't lose what the sub-division has and remain as strong. And I'm not talking about just App and GSU; but Marshall, Western Kentucky, Boise State, ULM, Troy, Texas State, etc. Other FCS schools have apparently decided not to be competitive (Delaware).

Also a lot of good DII schools have moved up, NDSU, SDSU, USD, UND, Central Arkansas, Elon, Stony Brook, North Alabama, UC Davis, Cal Poly, Kennesaw St, Monmouth. The only teams that moved up, that I ever hear about anymore are Boise St and Marshall. The rest I have to dig into ESPN to find out, except GSU played in Minnesota this year. Gophers played a soft schedule and could have been beat by SDSU and/or GSU.

Good teams all, but only one has won the national championship. Repeatedly. Six of the teams that left won the championship and they accounted for fourteen national championships. Hard to replace that with Elon and Monmouth.

Edit: I forgot UMass in my list. So seven teams with fifteen championships.