Rabble rousing...

Football Championship Subdivision discussions
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by cats2506 »

SuperHornet wrote:Once again, 2506 proves that he doesn't know how to pay attention. I was basing my picks off of Erik Rush, as all the Griz objectors can tell you.
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by Grizo406 »

EWURanger wrote:
grizzaholic wrote: 1) If that is how you base your opinion....half credit. Read the WSU board and get back to me
Not to de-rail this thread anymore than it already has been.....but this one has me scratching my head a little. I read the WSU board fairly regularly and I don't think I've ever read anything that was too out in left field on there. The few Weber posters that post on here have always seemed to be pretty objective dudes, I dunno.

To be fair, it's certainly nothing like some of the geniuses that frequent egriz Hmm...
As one of "those" in the above bolded, thanks for the shout-out, Ranger! ;)
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by grizzaholic »

cats2506 wrote:
grizzaholic wrote:

That right there means you lost all credibility.
I have never had anything but good experiences with WSU fans, Coach Mac has done great things for their program, and done it ethically and fairly. The only reason you refuse to see it is that he called out BH on the Baylough-Quinn chop block and he was right on the money when he did.
I have met maybe 50-60 WSU fans. I have yet to see one that is half-way decent. I have met them before/after Griz games in Missoula and have met 4 at a restaurant/bar in Ogden, have also met a couple in the SLC airport and 1 guy in Seattle. Not one was nice. I offered a beer, they declined and wanted to buy their own. Said hi and said I hope for a good game this fall and was greeted with a FUCK YOU and GRIZ SUCK ASS. Ran into a group in Ogden a couple years ago and as soon as I got out "hey" I got some middle fingers and the Griz are cheaters and told to watch my back when I left the place.


Yeah class fans. I have ZERO respect for any of them. I will always say good game, win or lose, and offer a beer to ANY, that is BOBCAT fans included, that I ever run into, but I will never expect one back or expect anything less than insults from WSU fans. As far as I am concerned I hope they move to a different conference.
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by cats2506 »

Grizo406 wrote:
EWURanger wrote:
Not to de-rail this thread anymore than it already has been.....but this one has me scratching my head a little. I read the WSU board fairly regularly and I don't think I've ever read anything that was too out in left field on there. The few Weber posters that post on here have always seemed to be pretty objective dudes, I dunno.

To be fair, it's certainly nothing like some of the geniuses that frequent egriz Hmm...
As one of "those" in the above bolded, thanks for the shout-out, Ranger! ;)
I doubt he was referring to you, you are a 2%er over there.
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by grizzaholic »

Didn't mean to derail this thread. It was a half joke, half comment...mostly about SH. Didn't mean to make this about WSU/CAT/GRIZ shit.

And I have never defended Egriz.
"What I'm saying is: You might have taken care of your wolf problem, but everyone around town is going to think of you as the crazy son of a bitch who bought land mines to get rid of wolves."

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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by cats2506 »

grizzaholic wrote:I have met maybe 50-60 WSU fans. I have yet to see one that is half-way decent. I have met them before/after Griz games in Missoula and have met 4 at a restaurant/bar in Ogden, have also met a couple in the SLC airport and 1 guy in Seattle. Not one was nice. I offered a beer, they declined and wanted to buy their own. Said hi and said I hope for a good game this fall and was greeted with a **** YOU and GRIZ SUCK ASS. Ran into a group in Ogden a couple years ago and as soon as I got out "hey" I got some middle fingers and the Griz are cheaters and told to watch my back when I left the place.
Good Folks :thumb:

Perhaps its just a result of the narcissistic, arrogant doughebag griz fans that we all see on a regular basis.

Seriously, at games and on the internet, I have never had a WSU act bad, always nice respectfull people, but still we generally greet each other the same way "GRIZ SUCK ASS" :lol:
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by grizzaholic »

cats2506 wrote:
grizzaholic wrote:I have met maybe 50-60 WSU fans. I have yet to see one that is half-way decent. I have met them before/after Griz games in Missoula and have met 4 at a restaurant/bar in Ogden, have also met a couple in the SLC airport and 1 guy in Seattle. Not one was nice. I offered a beer, they declined and wanted to buy their own. Said hi and said I hope for a good game this fall and was greeted with a **** YOU and GRIZ SUCK ASS. Ran into a group in Ogden a couple years ago and as soon as I got out "hey" I got some middle fingers and the Griz are cheaters and told to watch my back when I left the place.
Good Folks :thumb:

Perhaps its just a result of the narcissistic, arrogant doughebag griz fans that we all see on a regular basis.

Seriously, at games and on the internet, I have never had a WSU act bad, always nice respectfull people, but still we generally greet each other the same way "GRIZ SUCK ASS" :lol:
Yeah...ok. Whatever. I gave you my reason, you didn't read. Good for you.

Back to the thread at hand.
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by grizzaholic »

Please list your favorite teams:

1. to BEAT that are in your conference? Cats/WSU

2. to SEE FAIL that are in your conference?WSU

3. to PLAY that are not in your conference?McNeese St./SFA

4. to BEAT IN THE PLAYOFFS that are not in your conference? Any team out there
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by SuperHornet »

Wow. This fan stuff is getting out of hand.

I've met Griz fans at Sac games, and to a person, they were wonderful people to have around, and they were all good, knowledgable fans.

To the best of my knowledge, I've met ONE Weber fan (outside of my old UOP teammate who transferred to play QB for Weber), and he's great, too. He's also a member of this board, so I won't embarrass him by calling him out.

I may run smack about Davis, but the few Davis fans I know are upright, honorable people, too, including their former director of cheerleading who free-lances with the Sac Sirens Cheer Elite.

I can't say that I know any MSU fans, other than one of my Delta teammates who transferred to MSU, ostensibly to play there. Unfortunately for the team, he decided that Montana fishing was more fun than football, so that was that. LOL. I can only go off of what I see on the boards. There are several good ones, and a few bad ones. But, realistically, as bad as the intraconference squabbling gets with us, NOBODY associated with Big Sky fandom (on THIS board, anyway) rises to the level of troll. We have two or three of those on the board, but they are NOT associated with the Big Sky. Not even 2506.
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by Wildcat Ryan »

I dont know where Grizzaholic is getting his info, but we Weber fans treat other fans quite nicely on our forum, unless you come on and start the trash, you wont get trashed, Ranger is right, all we like to do on the Weber board is talk good sports with other fans, and let me be the first Weber fan to say that any and all fans are welcome to come chat with us.

I have met and talked to many griz fans when they come to Ogden, they are great and they would say the same about me, I even met a Griz fan at an Ogden Raptors baseball game yesterday, and we had a great conversation about the upcoming football season. He even said he's "kinda" glad Weber has been beating the Griz, I responded by saying You and me both :lol:

I dont judge a fanbase on a select few fans, I know that every fanbase has thier "bad fans", and every fanbase has thier good ones. Its too bad that Grizzaholic has to judge an entire fanbase on a select few fans.
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by grizzaholic »

Wildcat Ryan wrote:I dont know where Grizzaholic is getting his info, but we Weber fans treat other fans quite nicely on our forum, unless you come on and start the trash, you wont get trashed, Ranger is right, all we like to do on the Weber board is talk good sports with other fans, and let me be the first Weber fan to say that any and all fans are welcome to come chat with us.

I have met and talked to many griz fans when they come to Ogden, they are great and they would say the same about me, I even met a Griz fan at an Ogden Raptors baseball game yesterday, and we had a great conversation about the upcoming football season. He even said he's "kinda" glad Weber has been beating the Griz, I responded by saying You and me both :lol:

I dont judge a fanbase on a select few fans, I know that every fanbase has thier "bad fans", and every fanbase has thier good ones. Its too bad that Grizzaholic has to judge an entire fanbase on a select few fans.
Meeting 50-60 fans over 6 years.. Gotcha. I guess next time I have an opinion I will meet and take a survey of al 300 million Americans so I don't get MY opinion wrong.
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by Thumper 76 »

Please list your favorite teams:

1. to BEAT that are in your conference? NDSU/soon to be USD/UNI

2. to SEE FAIL that are in your conference? USD/NDSU The Bison have some cool cats as fans as people, but after sucess they get to be unbearable as a whole fanbase, and USD cause they are a buch of fucking douches.

3. to PLAY that are not in your conference? Mcneese St and Cal Poly, epic memories

4. to BEAT IN THE PLAYOFFS that are not in your conference? MONTANA, gunna have to eventually, and it will be sweet after the manner in which we have lost there the last two times.
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by uofmman1122 »

I like how 2506 is complaining about people on a message board being dicks. This coming from a guy that frequents egriz specifically to be a gigantic, trolly cockasaurus. :lol:

I also think it's rather ridiculous that anyone would base their opinion of a fanbase off the people who frequent its message boards. :roll:

1. to BEAT that are in your conference?

MSU - The pussies can eat shit. :thumb:

2. to SEE FAIL that are in your conference?

It's really situational. If the Griz and Cats/EWU were on the opposite sides of the brackets in the playoffs, I'd root like hell for them to win so we could see them in the chipper. In 2006 when the cats were on the other side of the bracket, we were going to head over to Bozeman in Griz gear if they somehow landed a home semifinal game, and cheer them on. I usually like to see the BSC teams do well in the playoffs.

In the regular season, though, I usually want them all to lose, unless they're playing an OOC game against a strong team from another conference. If EWU or MSU is playing SUU or something like that, I hope they suck shit and choke. :lol: :thumb:


3. to PLAY that are not in your conference?

I really like the series with Cal Poly. It's always a fantastic game. I wish we could play some OOC games against some CAA teams, but I doubt that's going to happen anytime soon. I freely admit it's the fault of our spineless AD who would rather we play a D2 game at home and make bank, than schedule a decent game across the country and pay for it.

4. to BEAT IN THE PLAYOFFS that are not in your conference?

Anyone at their house, just because people won't shut up about our playoff road record. Also any team in the CAA. We've been their bitch in the playoffs far too much, especially when it's mattered the most.
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by grizzaholic »

uofmman1122 wrote:I like how 2506 is complaining about people on a message board being dicks. This coming from a guy that frequents egriz specifically to be a gigantic, trolly cockasaurus. :lol:

I also think it's rather ridiculous that anyone would base their opinion of a fanbase off the people who frequent its message boards. :roll:

1. to BEAT that are in your conference?

MSU - The pussies can eat shit. :thumb:

2. to SEE FAIL that are in your conference?

It's really situational. If the Griz and Cats/EWU were on the opposite sides of the brackets in the playoffs, I'd root like hell for them to win so we could see them in the chipper. In 2006 when the cats were on the other side of the bracket, we were going to head over to Bozeman in Griz gear if they somehow landed a home semifinal game, and cheer them on. I usually like to see the BSC teams do well in the playoffs.

In the regular season, though, I usually want them all to lose, unless they're playing an OOC game against a strong team from another conference. If EWU or MSU is playing SUU or something like that, I hope they suck shit and choke. :lol: :thumb:


3. to PLAY that are not in your conference?

I really like the series with Cal Poly. It's always a fantastic game. I wish we could play some OOC games against some CAA teams, but I doubt that's going to happen anytime soon. I freely admit it's the fault of our spineless AD who would rather we play a D2 game at home and make bank, than schedule a decent game across the country and pay for it.

4. to BEAT IN THE PLAYOFFS that are not in your conference?

Anyone at their house, just because people won't shut up about our playoff road record. Also any team in the CAA. We've been their bitch in the playoffs far too much, especially when it's mattered the most.
The Cal Poly guys that come up here are just awesome. Great guys to grab a meal with.


And I based my opinion of WSU fans on the ones I have met. All of my experience has been face to face meetings.
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by 93henfan »

Tribe4SF wrote:
ODUalum11 wrote:
whats with the hate on 'Nova? You're not the first CAA fan to say they enjoy seeing 'Nova fail.
UD fans hate Nova, and vice versa.
Also
Spoiler: show
Auto plows into crowd after UD win
4 hurt outside Villanova Stadium
By DOUG LESMERISES
Staff reporter
11/23/2003

VILLANOVA, Pa. -- Four people were injured after the University of Delaware football game Saturday night when a car drove through a crowd of about 100 football players, family and friends outside the locker room at Villanova Stadium, police said.

Villanova Athletic Director Vince Nicastro said his team's chaplain, the Rev. Bernard Lazor, was behind the wheel of the green Ford Taurus after it stopped at the end of a 25-foot wide driveway on the south side of the stadium where the crowd had gathered. However, Radnor Township police did not identify the driver and no arrests were made late Saturday.

Several witnesses said people "went down like dominoes" while the driver, traveling about 30 mph, honked the horn but never stopped.

One end of the driveway opens into a lot where the Delaware team buses were parked during the game. The Taurus was traveling in the opposite direction, which comes to a dead end at stairs and a wheelchair ramp. Two other cars were parked along the driveway after the game.

"We weren't there to get hit," said Debbie Edwards of Wallingford, Pa., the mother of Delaware center Chris Edwards, who was not hurt. "We were there to greet the players coming out. Everyone was talking and no one was paying attention and, all of a sudden, this car just headed down there. People were under the tires, on top of the hood. I would have been under the tire if my friend hadn't pushed me out of the way."

Some fans stood by in tears while at least two injured people were taken away by ambulances and Delaware's football equipment was being loaded into a truck several feet away. Student trainer Jen Jones, 22 and a senior at UD, said the crowd was mostly Delaware fans.

"After all of our games, the fans come by to see us and congratulate the players and say hi to the team," Jones said. "It all happened very fast. He just plowed through. There was no brakelights - nothing. You didn't even hear the horn until it was too late."

Brian Honeycutt, 37, of Newark, said he was nearly hit. He said he then ran alongside the car after it went through the crowd, yelling at the driver to stop. He said he saw the driver staring straight ahead with his hands on top of the steering wheel.

Many of the Delaware players were either speaking in a postgame news conference or still getting dressed in the locker room as the car came through. Quarterback Andy Hall said he heard someone run into the locker room yelling, "Get a doctor out here."

"I don't know what's going on, but people just got run over," Hall said. "It was a lot of our families. The football game is irrelevant right now. It's totally irrelevant."

Delaware won the game 20-17 to win the Atlantic 10 Conference championship.

University of Delaware administrators could not be reached for comment.

According to Villanova's football media guide, Lazor has been a priest for 50 years and is an assistant professor of religious studies at the university.
Delaware Football: 1889-2012; 2022-
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by cats2506 »

uofmman1122 wrote:I like how 2506 is complaining about people on a message board being dicks. This coming from a guy that frequents egriz specifically to be a gigantic, trolly cockasaurus. :lol:

I also think it's rather ridiculous that anyone would base their opinion of a fanbase off the people who frequent its message boards. :roll:
I think you should reread the thread, I wasn't complaining about anything, I made my picks and fizzaholic didn't like that I liked WSU, I backed up my reasoning on WSU. Also I poked a little at one poster.

BTW my (low) opinion of fizz fans is based way more on real life people than message board personas.
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by uofmman1122 »

cats2506 wrote:I think you should reread the thread, I wasn't complaining about anything, I made my picks and fizzaholic didn't like that I liked WSU, I backed up my reasoning on WSU. Also I poked a little at one poster.

BTW my (low) opinion of fizz fans is based way more on real life people than message board personas.
95% of the Cat fans I've encountered in Bozeman/Missoula have been dickheads during the rivalry week/game. Most Griz fans I know are dickheads to Cat fans during Brawl Week/The Brawl.

Almost none of the Cat fans that I know or are friends with are genuine, remorseless dicks to me ever, and I'm the same to them.

Point is, it's a rivalry, and both sides are gonna be shitheads to fans of the other team that they don't know. I don't know you personally, so I'd probably say horrible things about your mother, and tell you to go die if I saw you around a tailgate in Missoula or Bozeman during the Brawl, but if you ever came up and said, "Hey, I'm 2506" I'd buy you a beer in a heartbeat. I'm sure a lot of the cat fans that have flipped me off, cussed at me, spit at me, etc. would do the same if they actually knew me.

I think it's a Montana thing. It's not like we're from North Dakota, or anything. :lol:

For every example of a shithead Griz fan you have, I could give you one of a shithead Cat fan. Shit happens. It's a rivalry. I hate you all, but you're not terrible. Neither fanbase is worse than the other, and trying to argue that is just dumb.
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by grizzaholic »

uofmman1122 wrote:
cats2506 wrote:I think you should reread the thread, I wasn't complaining about anything, I made my picks and fizzaholic didn't like that I liked WSU, I backed up my reasoning on WSU. Also I poked a little at one poster.

BTW my (low) opinion of fizz fans is based way more on real life people than message board personas.
95% of the Cat fans I've encountered in Bozeman/Missoula have been dickheads during the rivalry week/game. Most Griz fans I know are dickheads to Cat fans during Brawl Week/The Brawl.

Almost none of the Cat fans that I know or are friends with are genuine, remorseless dicks to me ever, and I'm the same to them.

Point is, it's a rivalry, and both sides are gonna be shitheads to fans of the other team that they don't know. I don't know you personally, so I'd probably say horrible things about your mother, and tell you to go die if I saw you around a tailgate in Missoula or Bozeman during the Brawl, but if you ever came up and said, "Hey, I'm 2506" I'd buy you a beer in a heartbeat. I'm sure a lot of the cat fans that have flipped me off, cussed at me, spit at me, etc. would do the same if they actually knew me.

I think it's a Montana thing. It's not like we're from North Dakota, or anything. :lol:

For every example of a shithead Griz fan you have, I could give you one of a shithead Cat fan. Shit happens. It's a rivalry. I hate you all, but you're not terrible. Neither fanbase is worse than the other, and trying to argue that is just dumb.
This is where you and I am opposite. Giving some good ribbing and being a total dick are two totally different animals. It is people like you that keep me from ever going to MSU for a game. I have can take whatever you give out, but when you act like a fool and a complete prick, which just gets worse the more you drink, takes away from the game. Way to give Griz fans a good name. :roll: Two face.
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by uofmman1122 »

grizzaholic wrote:This is where you and I am opposite. Giving some good ribbing and being a total dick are two totally different animals. It is people like you that keep me from ever going to MSU for a game. I have can take whatever you give out, but when you act like a fool and a complete prick, which just gets worse the more you drink, takes away from the game. Way to give Griz fans a good name. :roll: Two face.
Congrats on being such a morally superior individual.

Most Griz and Cat fans act like this during the game, yet afterwards, there's no bad blood, and nothing was really ever personal. It's one of the worst rivalries in sports, so it's not going to be immune from people being dickbags. If you don't partake in the hate, I applaud your conviction, but you're in a very, very small minority, as I, and I'm sure 2506, can attest to on both sides.

However, I'm perfectly open to the idea that my view is skewed based on the fact that I generally only interact with the 18-30 year-old part of both fanbases.

Although, there's nothing like seeing the 40-50 year-old Cat fan woman screaming "You motherfuckers have a happy fucking Thanksgiving jerking off all offseason, shitheads" at us as we left the game last year. Some Grade-A hate, right there. :lol:
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by cats2506 »

uofmman1122 wrote:
grizzaholic wrote:This is where you and I am opposite. Giving some good ribbing and being a total dick are two totally different animals. It is people like you that keep me from ever going to MSU for a game. I have can take whatever you give out, but when you act like a fool and a complete prick, which just gets worse the more you drink, takes away from the game. Way to give Griz fans a good name. :roll: Two face.
Congrats on being such a morally superior individual.

Most Griz and Cat fans act like this during the game, yet afterwards, there's no bad blood, and nothing was really ever personal. It's one of the worst rivalries in sports, so it's not going to be immune from people being dickbags. If you don't partake in the hate, I applaud your conviction, but you're in a very, very small minority, as I, and I'm sure 2506, can attest to on both sides.

However, I'm perfectly open to the idea that my view is skewed based on the fact that I generally only interact with the 18-30 year-old part of both fanbases.

Although, there's nothing like seeing the 40-50 year-old Cat fan woman screaming "You motherfuckers have a happy **** Thanksgiving jerking off all offseason, shitheads" at us as we left the game last year. Some Grade-A hate, right there. :lol:
Im more of the 50 year old crowd, but pretty much agree with your statements, if you ever come to a game in Bozeman let me know and I will buy you a beer, of course I may still give you shit but I like to have fun with it.

The ones that annoy me are the griz fans that cant name 5 players but make condescending remarks to me about being a Cat fan. I believe with the history there are more of those on your side than our side.
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by EWURanger »

Grizo406 wrote:
EWURanger wrote:
Not to de-rail this thread anymore than it already has been.....but this one has me scratching my head a little. I read the WSU board fairly regularly and I don't think I've ever read anything that was too out in left field on there. The few Weber posters that post on here have always seemed to be pretty objective dudes, I dunno.

To be fair, it's certainly nothing like some of the geniuses that frequent egriz Hmm...
As one of "those" in the above bolded, thanks for the shout-out, Ranger! ;)
;) There's some really good posters over there, it's just the two or three turds that kinda put a damper on things.
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grizzaholic
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by grizzaholic »

uofmman1122 wrote:
grizzaholic wrote:This is where you and I am opposite. Giving some good ribbing and being a total dick are two totally different animals. It is people like you that keep me from ever going to MSU for a game. I have can take whatever you give out, but when you act like a fool and a complete prick, which just gets worse the more you drink, takes away from the game. Way to give Griz fans a good name. :roll: Two face.
Congrats on being such a morally superior individual.

Most Griz and Cat fans act like this during the game, yet afterwards, there's no bad blood, and nothing was really ever personal. It's one of the worst rivalries in sports, so it's not going to be immune from people being dickbags. If you don't partake in the hate, I applaud your conviction, but you're in a very, very small minority, as I, and I'm sure 2506, can attest to on both sides.

However, I'm perfectly open to the idea that my view is skewed based on the fact that I generally only interact with the 18-30 year-old part of both fanbases.

Although, there's nothing like seeing the 40-50 year-old Cat fan woman screaming "You motherfuckers have a happy fucking Thanksgiving jerking off all offseason, shitheads" at us as we left the game last year. Some Grade-A hate, right there. :lol:
You really need to take a look in the mirror. Because you don't know the guy you will treat him like dirt just because, but if he says "hey I am so and so from the message board" you will welcome him with open beers. Nice.
"What I'm saying is: You might have taken care of your wolf problem, but everyone around town is going to think of you as the crazy son of a bitch who bought land mines to get rid of wolves."

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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by cats2506 »

grizzaholic wrote:
uofmman1122 wrote:Congrats on being such a morally superior individual.

Most Griz and Cat fans act like this during the game, yet afterwards, there's no bad blood, and nothing was really ever personal. It's one of the worst rivalries in sports, so it's not going to be immune from people being dickbags. If you don't partake in the hate, I applaud your conviction, but you're in a very, very small minority, as I, and I'm sure 2506, can attest to on both sides.

However, I'm perfectly open to the idea that my view is skewed based on the fact that I generally only interact with the 18-30 year-old part of both fanbases.

Although, there's nothing like seeing the 40-50 year-old Cat fan woman screaming "You motherfuckers have a happy **** Thanksgiving jerking off all offseason, shitheads" at us as we left the game last year. Some Grade-A hate, right there. :lol:
You really need to take a look in the mirror. Because you don't know the guy you will treat him like dirt just because, but if he says "hey I am so and so from the message board" you will welcome him with open beers. Nice.
WTF dude, are you the BAC of cs.com?
grizzaholic
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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by grizzaholic »

cats2506 wrote:
grizzaholic wrote:
You really need to take a look in the mirror. Because you don't know the guy you will treat him like dirt just because, but if he says "hey I am so and so from the message board" you will welcome him with open beers. Nice.
WTF dude, are you the BAC of cs.com?
That is about the worst thing you could have said. I am done with this. It is just going round and round all over a fucking joke.
"What I'm saying is: You might have taken care of your wolf problem, but everyone around town is going to think of you as the crazy son of a bitch who bought land mines to get rid of wolves."

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Re: Rabble rousing...

Post by cats2506 »

grizzaholic wrote:
cats2506 wrote:
WTF dude, are you the BAC of cs.com?
That is about the worst thing you could have said. I am done with this. It is just going round and round all over a **** joke.
Yeah, well you know that jokes are only really funny when they are based on some bit of truth
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