Charlotte declines full CAA membership, wants football-only

[Fresno St. Alum]

Quinn, you shouldn't let friar fan post on your site anymore because I bet him that the B10 would only go to 12. He said 16. 14 would have been a push. So he needs to put he's my bitch in his sig. that was the deal.

[89Hen]

GW owning the area and would block.

I could see them wanting to block as they are already an after-after-afterthought (if even that) in this area. When they were good, sure people paid a little attention, but otherwise I'd guess most people around here wouldn't name them if you asked them to name the DI schools in the DC area.

[49RFootballNow]

I wouldn't even know where to begin to add anything to this clusterf**k of a thread jacking. Good job gentlemen, good job.

[collegesportsinfo]

schools wouldn't have left the CAA for what you call sideways moves unless they thought the move was a step up.

It WAS a step up when Richmond left. It is no longer. At least not enough of one to go.

Gotta keep it real, Hen. Hofstra is a CAA school that not only is interested in the A10, but has looked into it. And while NU and Drexel have been less blunt, are you really going to tell us that they wouldn't jump in a second...today? That said, the A10 has expressed no interested in those 3 schools even as replacements, so it's moot.

[collegesportsinfo]

I also think it will be hard to ever give you an I told you so either because if Charlotte joins say CUSA if there was an opening and the A10 wanted to go back to 14. Butler gets the first call. Quinn thinks Holy Cross or Siena would be next.

HC or Siena? You and I can agree on Butler.

The two schools were looked into by the A10 as potential candidates as replacements, that's why they are on the list. Detroit and BU were two others, but for all 4, it was some time ago. Things change obviously.

But of course Butler is on the list, at the top. Their problem is that they'd need to boost their athletics budget in order to fit within the new A10 unofficial Athletic budget expectations.

The problem though is that "expansion" isn't the issue. It's about the A10 studying potential replacements when it appeared the Big East was about to split. At that time, it was fully expected that Xavier and Dayton would be leaving to join the Big East non-football schools. So Butler and Detroit made less sense as the footprint would have made Butler pretty far away.

[Fresno St. Alum]

It WAS a step up when Richmond left. It is no longer. At least not enough of one to go.

Gotta keep it real, Hen. Hofstra is a CAA school that not only is interested in the A10, but has looked into it. And while NU and Drexel have been less blunt, are you really going to tell us that they wouldn't jump in a second...today? That said, the A10 has expressed no interested in those 3 schools even as replacements, so it's moot.

I'm not out to get any conf. I would love for the CAA to keep putting a team in the fianl four. I would love for every school to rotate winning the conf. tourney. Mainly W&M, the only one that has never been.

Just like I'd love for App St. to somehow be able to skip over a SBC or MAC invite and get into CUSA and have all the App guys to tell me, ha, suck it. It means conference movement for me. I just tell you guys what I hear, what I read(real articles) not message board, what I think and what I know.

[89Hen]

Gotta keep it real, Hen. Hofstra is a CAA school that not only is interested in the A10, but has looked into it. And while NU and Drexel have been less blunt, are you really going to tell us that they wouldn't jump in a second...today? That said, the A10 has expressed no interested in those 3 schools even as replacements, so it's moot.

Christ, now we're dragging Hofstra, Drexel and NU into this? Please, take them.

[Fresno St. Alum]

I wouldn't even know where to begin to add anything to this clusterf**k of a thread jacking. Good job gentlemen, good job.

Welcome.

[Fresno St. Alum]

Gotta keep it real, Hen. Hofstra is a CAA school that not only is interested in the A10, but has looked into it. And while NU and Drexel have been less blunt, are you really going to tell us that they wouldn't jump in a second...today? That said, the A10 has expressed no interested in those 3 schools even as replacements, so it's moot.

Christ, now we're dragging Hofstra, Drexel and NU into this? Please, take them.

See no one wants them except the AEC. but that's a couple steps down the ladder.

[collegesportsinfo]

I wouldn't even know where to begin to add anything to this clusterf**k of a thread jacking. Good job gentlemen, good job.

I'm with ya, buddy. I tried to get it back on topic to no avail.


I'll check back in time and see if the thread is back to being Charlotte-centric again.



My thoughts are pretty simple:

This thread and others on message boards right now (due to CAA fans being quite joyful due to the success of a single school, VCU) has turned into a ball of confusion:

A group of people are saying that "blue is darker than black" when that just isn't true. What is true though is that "blue is their favorite color". Completely entitled to that opinion.

Every statistical measure available tells the story. CAA folks talk about "closing gaps" and "recently", stressing the present as opposed to the distant past when the A10 had #1 seeds. But in those 5 years...

* 26 A10 tourney shares in 5 years vs *14 for the CAA (*VCU still playing, can become 15 max)
* 14 A10 bids vs 8 CAA bids
* 9 at-large A10 bids in 5 years, versus 3 for the CAA
* A10 averaging a higher RPI (pasted again below), the gap between the A10 and CAA growing from a 3 ranking spots after the Mason run to 4.5 difference the next 5 years. For sake of accuracy, this single year of 2011, it was only 1 spot differential.
*TV contracts: A10 has a more lucrative deal with CBS Sports, including Sunday championship game on CBS
* Higher seeding for A10 over CAA (8 seed highest for CAA team)


The analogy to "blue is darker than black" is simply back to stress momentum. The CAA was in the same spot after the Mason run as they are now: a strong showing in the tourney by a single team. Had Morehead St. made it to the Final Four, would one be saying the OVC is "closing the gap"? Probably not. Instead, you appreciate what VCU has done and you HOPE that it help builds momentum in years to come for the CAA. It's going to take time and patience and continuing momentum before the CAA is able to work it's way up the rungs. And that CERTAINLY CAN happen. But the CAA has to prove they aren't 1 year wonders and are different than so many conferences to come before them like the Horizon (20 tourney shares during the same 5 year period we're talking about), the MVC, Big West, WCC, etc. These conferences all had strong years with multiple bids, lots of tourney shares, but like the CAA after the Mason run, they took a step backwards and it took 5 years just to get a total of 3 at-large bids for them.


This was a great year for the CAA. Enjoy it people! And be optimistic that things continue to improve. It's a simple rule of thumb: when you've achieved what you want and get to a level you want to be at, you no longer need to bang a drum to get people to listen...because the facts will are transparent. Wasn't long ago the WAC was a better hoops conference than the MWC, depsite the MWC fans stating otherwise. In time, the MWC did REALLY surpass the WAC in all statistical measures. It can happen.

RPI:
2011: A10 = 9, CAA = 10
2010: A10 = 7, CAA = 12
2009: A10 = 8, CAA = 14
2008: A10 = 7, CAA = 13
2007: A10 = 10, CAA = 13

[89Hen]

I'm with ya, buddy. I tried to get it back on topic to no avail....

and then goes on to make the longest post about the "off-topic".

BTW, why is talking about the CAA vs the A10 off-topic, when the topic is about an A10 team being told if they want to play football in the CAA they'd need to join the CAA for all-sports. Seems to me a natural discussion.

[Fresno St. Alum]

dp

[Fresno St. Alum]

I'm with ya, buddy. I tried to get it back on topic to no avail.


I'll check back in time and see if the thread is back to being Charlotte-centric again.



My thoughts are pretty simple:

This thread and others on message boards right now (due to CAA fans being quite joyful due to the success of a single school, VCU) has turned into a ball of confusion:

A group of people are saying that "blue is darker than black" when that just isn't true. What is true though is that "blue is their favorite color". Completely entitled to that opinion.

Every statistical measure available tells the story. CAA folks talk about "closing gaps" and "recently", stressing the present as opposed to the distant past when the A10 had #1 seeds. But in those 5 years...

* 26 A10 tourney shares in 5 years vs *14 for the CAA (*VCU still playing, can become 15 max)
* 14 A10 bids vs 8 CAA bids
* 9 at-large A10 bids in 5 years, versus 3 for the CAA
* A10 averaging a higher RPI (pasted again below), the gap between the A10 and CAA growing from a 3 ranking spots after the Mason run to 4.5 difference the next 5 years. For sake of accuracy, this single year of 2011, it was only 1 spot differential.
*TV contracts: A10 has a more lucrative deal with CBS Sports, including Sunday championship game on CBS
* Higher seeding for A10 over CAA (8 seed highest for CAA team)


The analogy to "blue is darker than black" is simply back to stress momentum. The CAA was in the same spot after the Mason run as they are now: a strong showing in the tourney by a single team. Had Morehead St. made it to the Final Four, would one be saying the OVC is "closing the gap"? Probably not. Instead, you appreciate what VCU has done and you HOPE that it help builds momentum in years to come for the CAA. It's going to take time and patience and continuing momentum before the CAA is able to work it's way up the rungs. And that CERTAINLY CAN happen. But the CAA has to prove they aren't 1 year wonders and are different than so many conferences to come before them like the Horizon (20 tourney shares during the same 5 year period we're talking about), the MVC, Big West, WCC, etc. These conferences all had strong years with multiple bids, lots of tourney shares, but like the CAA after the Mason run, they took a step backwards and it took 5 years just to get a total of 3 at-large bids for them.


This was a great year for the CAA. Enjoy it people! And be optimistic that things continue to improve. It's a simple rule of thumb: when you've achieved what you want and get to a level you want to be at, you no longer need to bang a drum to get people to listen...because the facts will are transparent. Wasn't long ago the WAC was a better hoops conference than the MWC, depsite the MWC fans stating otherwise. In time, the MWC did REALLY surpass the WAC in all statistical measures. It can happen.

I can't read that much at once, I'll wait for Hen and Dback to respond with UMass sucks and VCU will kick all your asses before I comment on this novel

[49RFootballNow]

I'm with ya, buddy. I tried to get it back on topic to no avail....

and then goes on to make the longest post about the "off-topic".

BTW, why is talking about the CAA vs the A10 off-topic, when the topic is about an A10 team being told if they want to play football in the CAA they'd need to join the CAA for all-sports. Seems to me a natural discussion.

I think it has devolved into an A10 vs CAA basketball thread, which I suppose is related to Charlotte wanting a football only membership in the CAA. However, I don't think whether a Virginia CAA school would choose the A10 over the CAA has much bearing on whether Charlotte would do the opposite though. Our primary issue in choosing what conference we want to play all our sports in is what effect they'll have on our programs.

It's pretty funny all of you are arguing these points on a thread that's based on information about events that can not be verified as having actually occured.

[wmtribe90]

I wouldn't even know where to begin to add anything to this clusterf**k of a thread jacking. Good job gentlemen, good job.

I'm with ya, buddy. I tried to get it back on topic to no avail.


I'll check back in time and see if the thread is back to being Charlotte-centric again.



My thoughts are pretty simple:

This thread and others on message boards right now (due to CAA fans being quite joyful due to the success of a single school, VCU) has turned into a ball of confusion:

A group of people are saying that "blue is darker than black" when that just isn't true. What is true though is that "blue is their favorite color". Completely entitled to that opinion.

Every statistical measure available tells the story. CAA folks talk about "closing gaps" and "recently", stressing the present as opposed to the distant past when the A10 had #1 seeds. But in those 5 years...

* 26 A10 tourney shares in 5 years vs *14 for the CAA (*VCU still playing, can become 15 max)
* 14 A10 bids vs 8 CAA bids
* 9 at-large A10 bids in 5 years, versus 3 for the CAA
* A10 averaging a higher RPI (pasted again below), the gap between the A10 and CAA growing from a 3 ranking spots after the Mason run to 4.5 difference the next 5 years. For sake of accuracy, this single year of 2011, it was only 1 spot differential.
*TV contracts: A10 has a more lucrative deal with CBS Sports, including Sunday championship game on CBS
* Higher seeding for A10 over CAA (8 seed highest for CAA team)


The analogy to "blue is darker than black" is simply back to stress momentum. The CAA was in the same spot after the Mason run as they are now: a strong showing in the tourney by a single team. Had Morehead St. made it to the Final Four, would one be saying the OVC is "closing the gap"? Probably not. Instead, you appreciate what VCU has done and you HOPE that it help builds momentum in years to come for the CAA. It's going to take time and patience and continuing momentum before the CAA is able to work it's way up the rungs. And that CERTAINLY CAN happen. But the CAA has to prove they aren't 1 year wonders and are different than so many conferences to come before them like the Horizon (20 tourney shares during the same 5 year period we're talking about), the MVC, Big West, WCC, etc. These conferences all had strong years with multiple bids, lots of tourney shares, but like the CAA after the Mason run, they took a step backwards and it took 5 years just to get a total of 3 at-large bids for them.


This was a great year for the CAA. Enjoy it people! And be optimistic that things continue to improve. It's a simple rule of thumb: when you've achieved what you want and get to a level you want to be at, you no longer need to bang a drum to get people to listen...because the facts will are transparent. Wasn't long ago the WAC was a better hoops conference than the MWC, depsite the MWC fans stating otherwise. In time, the MWC did REALLY surpass the WAC in all statistical measures. It can happen.

RPI:
2011: A10 = 9, CAA = 10
2010: A10 = 7, CAA = 12
2009: A10 = 8, CAA = 14
2008: A10 = 7, CAA = 13
2007: A10 = 10, CAA = 13

Final Four Appearences in the Past 15 years:

CAA = 2
A10 = 0

...maybe not every measure.

After two final 4 appearences in the past six years, I think you will see the CAA consistently put 2 (or more) teams in the tourney each year. No CAA tourney participant has been blown out going back as far as I can remember. Outside of the GMU and VCU runs, the conference can also boast recent wins over Duke, Notre Dame and Georgetown in the tourney. The CAA has justified every at-large selection its been granted and I think VCU reaped the benefit this year and VCU's run will in turn be used to justify future at large slections, when CAA teams are sitting on the bubble.

If I was a UNCC fan, I'd be willing to take a small step down in basketball to take a bigger step up in football affiliation. Especially when the current trajectory of the CAA basketball conference has the gap narrowing further.

Is the A10 really that much better that UNCC would pass on all-sports membership in the premier FCS football league, regional rivlaries, and reduced travel costs. One could easily argue the UNCC has just as much or even better odds of making the toruney from a two bid CAA than from a three or four bid A10. Also, a lot easier to envision a jump from the CAA to FBS status than from the Big South to the FBS, especially if you need an FBS conference invite now. Bottom line, UNCC has more to gain (and lose) by forgoing ful CAA membership. If need be, teh CAA will simply move on to the next program on the list of candidates (SBU, Albany, Fordham, Liberty, etc.)

[Fresno St. Alum]

Charlotte has name recognition with the CUSA membership so being Indy or BSC wouldn't stop the Sun Belt from wanting them. CUSA could take them back if there was an opening and Charlotte fb was up and running. Temple and UMass aren't will ing to give up their A10 membership for MAC membership and that's an FBS conf. Temple turned down full invite from the MAC, the Mac allows them and soon UMass to be fb only. It's hypocritical for the CAA to allow Nova, UMass, Maine, Richmond, UNH to be fb only and not Charlotte. Half of the CAA fb aren't CAA members.

I'm pretty sure 2 bids for CAA will be the norm but you need to get different schools to get the bid not just the same 3 every year.

[wmtribe90]

Charlotte has name recognition with the CUSA membership so being Indy or BSC wouldn't stop the Sun Belt from wanting them. CUSA could take them back if there was an opening and Charlotte fb was up and running. Temple and UMass aren't will ing to give up their A10 membership for MAC membership and that's an FBS conf. Temple turned down full invite from the MAC, the Mac allows them and soon UMass to be fb only. It's hypocritical for the CAA to allow Nova, UMass, Maine, Richmond, UNH to be fb only and not Charlotte. Half of the CAA fb aren't CAA members.

I'm pretty sure 2 bids for CAA will be the norm but you need to get different schools to get the bid not just the same 3 every year.

Not hypocritical at all considering UR, Villanova, UMass, UNH, URI and Maine were all in the conference before the CAA took over control from the A10 (and the Yankee Conference before that). Basically, they're all grandfathered in to the conference and have been in the conference as long or longer than any of the full CAA members.

Not convinced CUSA would take Charlotte back just because you add football. Might give you an edge, but I'd imagine they take the best candidate available and teams like ASU, JMU and ODU from the FCS ranks are lightyears ahead of UNCC right now. Playing in the best conference available has to help your case and speed your growth as a program.

I

[Fresno St. Alum]

Charlotte has name recognition with the CUSA membership so being Indy or BSC wouldn't stop the Sun Belt from wanting them. CUSA could take them back if there was an opening and Charlotte fb was up and running. Temple and UMass aren't will ing to give up their A10 membership for MAC membership and that's an FBS conf. Temple turned down full invite from the MAC, the Mac allows them and soon UMass to be fb only. It's hypocritical for the CAA to allow Nova, UMass, Maine, Richmond, UNH to be fb only and not Charlotte. Half of the CAA fb aren't CAA members.

I'm pretty sure 2 bids for CAA will be the norm but you need to get different schools to get the bid not just the same 3 every year.

Not hypocritical at all considering UR, Villanova, UMass, UNH, URI and Maine were all in the conference before the CAA took over control from the A10 (and the Yankee Conference before that). Basically, they're all grandfathered in to the conference and have been in the conference as long or longer than any of the full CAA members.

Not convinced CUSA would take Charlotte back just because you add football. Might give you an edge, but I'd imagine they take the best candidate available and teams like ASU, JMU and ODU from the FCS ranks are lightyears ahead of UNCC right now. Playing in the best conference available has to help your case and speed your growth as a program.

I

App St. is light years ahead but being good isn't what gets you a conf. invite in FBS. Charlotte market destroys the Boone market. Also No one goes to CUSA anyway unless UCF leaves for the BE. La Tech is ahead of Charlotte too but Temple, FIU, FAU, UNT would all likely get CUSA invites before La Tech. If Charlotte wasn't a former member, no doubt they'd surely have to go the MAC or SBC route, which they may have too anyway. If App or JMU want to move up they'd have to go that way too unless 4 or 5 schools leave CUSA because all of the BCS conf. went to 16, not likely to happen in the next 5/10 years anyway so I'd say no one leaves CUSA or maybe UCF. If UCF leaves in 2012, then because Charlotte isn't ready, the invite would go to say Temple, FAU, FIU or UNT. If something happens in say 2019 or something and a spot opens in CUSA and Charlotte is in the Big South or especially the Sun Belt then they have a solid shot at CUSA.

BYU is good but aren't getting invited to the Pac12 or Big 12. Boise St. is good and didn't get an invite to the Pac12. Troy is better than all the schools I named that would get a look by CUSA if someone leaves but Troy has no market value to add even though they are the best team. App would have to compete with UNC, NCSU, Duke, ECU, Wake for market value in NC Charlotte may have the same problem but at least it's a big market and it was good enough for CUSA to take them once. It's not as simple as we're good we get the spot. FAU/FIU probably don't have much market value in Fla. but if they lost UCF I think they'd get a hard look because you don't want to lose recruiting in Fla. if UCF leaves.

[Skjellyfetti]

There is no such thing as the Boone market. Both Appalachian State and UNCC are in the Charlotte market.

Also, you kept saying in the Appalachian to CUSA thread that App State has to "earn its stripes" by first moving to the Sun Belt or another lowly conference before moving to CUSA. But, you don't believe the same is true of UNCC... a program that just named its head coach a couple weeks ago... and one that hasn't even broken ground on its stadium... why is that? Why don't you think UNCC has to "earn its stripes"?

[Fresno St. Alum]

There is no such thing as the Boone market. Both Appalachian State and UNCC are in the Charlotte market.

Also, you kept saying in the Appalachian to CUSA thread that App State has to "earn its stripes" by first moving to the Sun Belt or another lowly conference before moving to CUSA. But, you don't believe the same is true of UNCC... a program that just named its head coach a couple weeks ago... and one that hasn't even broken ground on its stadium... why is that? Why don't you think UNCC has to "earn its stripes"?

I said they might have to earn their stripes anyway. Read it again. I know there's no Boone market, it's kind of the point. The ONLY reason Charlotte might be able to get into CUSA over some other schools w/o having to go to the MAC or SBC first is because they WERE IN CUSA already. The most likely of all scenarios is that Nova just moves up and no one leaves CUSA and they stay at 12 because NO ONE adds enough value to go to 13 members without diminishing CUSA's 1.16 mill a year per school from their TV contract.

[Fresno St. Alum]

There is no such thing as the Boone market. Both Appalachian State and UNCC are in the Charlotte market.

Also, you kept saying in the Appalachian to CUSA thread that App State has to "earn its stripes" by first moving to the Sun Belt or another lowly conference before moving to CUSA. But, you don't believe the same is true of UNCC... a program that just named its head coach a couple weeks ago... and one that hasn't even broken ground on its stadium... why is that? Why don't you think UNCC has to "earn its stripes"?

Why do you guys insist that a school has to have a football history and be good to move up? FIU, FAU did they have history? No. Were they better than App when they were 1-AA for those couple of years? No but they moved up. Market potential, growth, willing to join the SBC. UTSA took advantage of an open spot in the WAC. Lamar could do the same if they get invited, they played fb for the first time in 21 years last year. Montana didn't wise move for Montana, maybe.

I notice that attendance is important to all you guys in FCS, you bring it up all the time. That's the only way most of you can see your team until the playoffs on TV unless you play a bodybag game against a BCS power. Well in FBS it's not as important, they never applied their 17K attendance rule. They care about tv contracts, market potential and market penetration.

[89Hen]

It's hypocritical for the CAA to allow Nova, UMass, Maine, Richmond, UNH to be fb only and not Charlotte.

How's that? VU, UMass, Maine, UR and UNH all came with the deal. It's completely different to not accept MORE football only members than to kick out ones that preceeded you even having a conference.

[89Hen]

Why do you guys insist that a school has to have a football history and be good to move up? FIU, FAU did they have history? No. Were they better than App when they were 1-AA for those couple of years? No but they moved up. Market potential, growth, willing to join the SBC.

Let's revisit this in 5 years when FIU and FAU have hemorrhaged money for 7 years and see if they still even have football.

[henfan]

It's hypocritical for the CAA to allow Nova, UMass, Maine, Richmond, UNH to be fb only and not Charlotte.

What a completely silly comment. Do you know to which "CAA" you are referring?

CAA Football is a separate entity from the Colonial Athletic Association. When the Colonial Athletic Association agreed to assume control of the former Atlantic 10 Football League, it created CAA Football and offered every former A-10 Football League member an equal opportunity to join the new league as a whole member. (Nova, UMass, UMaine, UR & UNH are full members of CAA Football, not affiliates.) Since the Colonial Athletic Association would be administering CAA Football, it won guarantees that would require that CAA Football accept any Colonial Athletic Assoc. members who began football startups within by the 2017 deadline. (The original deadline was 2014 but it was extended to 2017.)

CAA Football has its own voting procedures for accepting new members, which includes votes from all CAA Football and Colonial Athletic Assoc. members. Presumably, UNCC applied or explored CAA Football membership but couldn't get the support of 3/4 of CAA Football and Colonial Athletic Assoc. members to grant them entry. The work around was to offer UNCC membership in the Colonial Athletic Assoc., which would guarantee them admission into CAA Football. Apparently, there must have been sufficient support from Colonial Athletic Assoc. members to have extended an offer to UNCC.

At this point, CAA Football appears not to be interested in UNCC and UNCC appears not to be interested in the Colonial Athletic Assoc. It seems unlikely that UNCC will get into CAA Football without finding the backdoor through the Colonial Athletic Assoc., especially as long as northern CAA Football members remain concerned about having to fly to another southern destination.

I'm not sure how UNCC plans to springboard to the FBS from a conference like the Big South or, in lieu of that, how they can defy the odds to make a go of it as an FCS independent for an undetermined amount of time. They've apparently got it all worked out.

[49RFootballNow]

CAA Football has its own voting procedures for accepting new members, which includes votes from all CAA Football and Colonial Athletic Assoc. members. Presumably, UNCC applied or explored CAA Football membership but couldn't get the support of 3/4 of CAA Football and Colonial Athletic Assoc. members to grant them entry. The work around was to offer UNCC membership in the Colonial Athletic Assoc., which would guarantee them admission into CAA Football. Apparently, there must have been sufficient support from Colonial Athletic Assoc. members to have extended an offer to UNCC.

At this point, CAA Football appears not to be interested in UNCC and UNCC appears not to be interested in the Colonial Athletic Assoc. It seems unlikely that UNCC will get into CAA Football without finding the backdoor through the Colonial Athletic Assoc., especially as long as northern CAA Football members remain concerned about having to fly to another southern destination.

I'm not sure how UNCC plans to springboard to the FBS from a conference like the Big South or, in lieu of that, how they can defy the odds to make a go of it as an FCS independent for an undetermined amount of time. They've apparently got it all worked out.

So far the only source that claims this happened is UNCW's beat writter who heard it third hand. Most of these things aren't decided this quickly in the process and usually involve months or even a year or 2. I highly doubt our AD flat out refused anything at this point. Now if this was Winter of 2013 and we had six months to register the paperwork then I'd be more inclined to think this was the last word.