Championship Subdivision Football | FCS Football | Stadiums | Blogs | Forums

slulionsfan wrote:

kalm wrote:
Like I said...he's the greatest receiver in FCS history. And that's without even comparing level of competition and Kupp's stats against the 4 PAC-12 opponents he faced.

His NFL career remains to be seen.

Nothing against Kupp (he's good) but Jerry Rice would beg to differ. I saw him catch 24 balls in a game in against Southern U in 1984. He was a man among boys then, and that's back in the days when SWAC schools were still getting SEC caliber athletes. He translated fairly well to the NFL I would say.

Do you honestly think I don't realize that Jerry Rice "translated fairly well to the NFL"? Or that he was a man among boys?

No argument. He was the greatest! But he fell short of what Kupp did in the FCS is my only point.

Speaking of game stats, here's Kupp's against the PAC 12...all we're bowl teams and the Washington defense had 3 first round NFL picks on it.

2013 vs Oregon State 5 catches 119 yards 2 TDs
2014 vs Washington 8 catches 143 yards 3 TDs
2015 vs Oregon 15 catches 246 yards 2 TDs
2016 vs Washington State 12 catches 203 yards 3 TDs

That's 175 yards and 2.5 TD's per game against competition that was probably as good as the SEC talent playing in the SWAC back in the day.

Or there was the game last year at Idaho State where he caught 14 passes for 161 yards and two touchdowns but also passed and returned a punt for 2 more scores....

kalm wrote:

slulionsfan wrote:
Nothing against Kupp (he's good) but Jerry Rice would beg to differ. I saw him catch 24 balls in a game in against Southern U in 1984. He was a man among boys then, and that's back in the days when SWAC schools were still getting SEC caliber athletes. He translated fairly well to the NFL I would say.

Do you honestly think I don't realize that Jerry Rice "translated fairly well to the NFL"? Or that he was a man among boys?

No argument. He was the greatest! But he fell short of what Kupp did in the FCS is my only point.

Speaking of game stats, here's Kupp's against the PAC 12...all we're bowl teams and the Washington defense had 3 first round NFL picks on it.

2013 vs Oregon State 5 catches 119 yards 2 TDs
2014 vs Washington 8 catches 143 yards 3 TDs
2015 vs Oregon 15 catches 246 yards 2 TDs
2016 vs Washington State 12 catches 203 yards 3 TDs

That's 175 yards and 2.5 TD's per game against competition that was probably as good as the SEC talent playing in the SWAC back in the day.

Or there was the game last year at Idaho State where he caught 14 passes for 161 yards and two touchdowns but also passed and returned a punt for 2 more scores....

I don't think they are getting the point that FCS Greatest doesn't include NFL career. That is apples and oranges. Compare Jerry Rice FCS/I-AA vs Kupp FCS for that title.

Bronco wrote:I don't know his 40 time but maybe the best hands I've ever seen in person. I wish him well
I'd be happy if my Vikings took him

4.5 so definitely not a track guy. Even so, he's smoked plenty of "elite" DB's, some of which are on NFL rosters now. I think his hands and technique more than make up for not being a 4.4 guy.

Gil Dobie wrote:
I don't think they are getting the point that FCS Greatest doesn't include NFL career. That is apples and oranges. Compare Jerry Rice FCS/I-AA vs Kupp FCS for that title.

I understand the attempt to make that argument but i don't think it's a good argument. When you talk about the "best ever" in FCS how they do in the NFL is relevant to that question. It's not "apples and oranges."

What happens is you get to compare apples to apples when they get to the NFL.

If you've got one wide receiver who runs up a bunch of gaudy stats in I-AA/FCS but you've got another wide reciever who clearly shows himself to be the better wide receiver in the NFL the guy who shows himself to be the better wide receiver in the NFL is the better wide receiver. And he was the better wide receiver when he was in FCS. He's just a better player at the position. And there's no real argument to the contrary.

JohnStOnge wrote:

Gil Dobie wrote:
I don't think they are getting the point that FCS Greatest doesn't include NFL career. That is apples and oranges. Compare Jerry Rice FCS/I-AA vs Kupp FCS for that title.

I understand the attempt to make that argument but i don't think it's a good argument. When you talk about the "best ever" in FCS how they do in the NFL is relevant to that question. It's not "apples and oranges."

What happens is you get to compare apples to apples when they get to the NFL.

If you've got one wide receiver who runs up a bunch of gaudy stats in I-AA/FCS but you've got another wide reciever who clearly shows himself to be the better wide receiver in the NFL the guy who shows himself to be the better wide receiver in the NFL is the better wide receiver. And he was the better wide receiver when he was in FCS. He's just a better player at the position. And there's no real argument to the contrary.

Tell me how Jerry Rice's NFL stats make him a better college player?

EWURanger wrote:

Bronco wrote:I don't know his 40 time but maybe the best hands I've ever seen in person. I wish him well
I'd be happy if my Vikings took him

4.5 so definitely not a track guy. Even so, he's smoked plenty of "elite" DB's, some of which are on NFL rosters now. I think his hands and technique more than make up for not being a 4.4 guy.

I think he will be drafted by NEW ENGLAND???

Gil Dobie wrote:

kalm wrote:
Do you honestly think I don't realize that Jerry Rice "translated fairly well to the NFL"? Or that he was a man among boys?

No argument. He was the greatest! But he fell short of what Kupp did in the FCS is my only point.

Speaking of game stats, here's Kupp's against the PAC 12...all we're bowl teams and the Washington defense had 3 first round NFL picks on it.

2013 vs Oregon State 5 catches 119 yards 2 TDs
2014 vs Washington 8 catches 143 yards 3 TDs
2015 vs Oregon 15 catches 246 yards 2 TDs
2016 vs Washington State 12 catches 203 yards 3 TDs

That's 175 yards and 2.5 TD's per game against competition that was probably as good as the SEC talent playing in the SWAC back in the day.

Or there was the game last year at Idaho State where he caught 14 passes for 161 yards and two touchdowns but also passed and returned a punt for 2 more scores....

I don't think they are getting the point that FCS Greatest doesn't include NFL career. That is apples and oranges. Compare Jerry Rice FCS/I-AA vs Kupp FCS for that title.

Rice struggled in his early years so it was not a forgone conclusion he would be successful in the NFL.

I get what both Gil and JSO are saying. Case in point in my memory was Flacco in 2007. He didn't have the gaudiest stats and wasn't a major player in the Payton Award discussion, but to anybody who knows anything about football, you knew he was the best player in FCS that year and would go highest in the draft. This of course bore itself out in the form of a Lombardi Trophy, a Pepsi Rookie of the Year Award, and a Super Bowl MVP trophy.

JohnStOnge wrote:

Gil Dobie wrote:
I don't think they are getting the point that FCS Greatest doesn't include NFL career. That is apples and oranges. Compare Jerry Rice FCS/I-AA vs Kupp FCS for that title.

I understand the attempt to make that argument but i don't think it's a good argument. When you talk about the "best ever" in FCS how they do in the NFL is relevant to that question. It's not "apples and oranges."

What happens is you get to compare apples to apples when they get to the NFL.

If you've got one wide receiver who runs up a bunch of gaudy stats in I-AA/FCS but you've got another wide reciever who clearly shows himself to be the better wide receiver in the NFL the guy who shows himself to be the better wide receiver in the NFL is the better wide receiver. And he was the better wide receiver when he was in FCS. He's just a better player at the position. And there's no real argument to the contrary.

Of course there is. Just like there are coaching, system, and level of competition variables in college that make these comparisons inexact, the same holds for the NFL. One receiver has Joe Montana as a starting quarterback, one has Richard Todd. One goes to a west coast offense while the other plays in a power running offense. Injuries, rules changes, etc.

JohnStOnge wrote:

Gil Dobie wrote:
I don't think they are getting the point that FCS Greatest doesn't include NFL career. That is apples and oranges. Compare Jerry Rice FCS/I-AA vs Kupp FCS for that title.

I understand the attempt to make that argument but i don't think it's a good argument. When you talk about the "best ever" in FCS how they do in the NFL is relevant to that question. It's not "apples and oranges."

What happens is you get to compare apples to apples when they get to the NFL.

If you've got one wide receiver who runs up a bunch of gaudy stats in I-AA/FCS but you've got another wide reciever who clearly shows himself to be the better wide receiver in the NFL the guy who shows himself to be the better wide receiver in the NFL is the better wide receiver. And he was the better wide receiver when he was in FCS. He's just a better player at the position. And there's no real argument to the contrary.

John, here you go again taking perfectly legitimate facts/statistics to prove the indisputable truth of your position but forgetting that the priority/importance/weight you are giving the facts/statistics is completely subjective. Your argument while valid is no more valid or definitive than Kalm's.

Case in point, if you were to attempt to determine the greatest UNI QB of all time using your approach than Kurt Warner would clearly be #1. If you were to use actual accomplishments while at UNI then Eric Sanders (3+ year starter, 2-time conference champion, led team to FCS championship game and quarterfinals) beats Warner (1 year starter on conference championship team that lost in the first round of the Playoffs) hands down.

On the flip side of comparing FCS/I-AA statistics for Rice vs. Kupp is the difference in offensive approaches between then and now. Offenses run more plays and throw more passes today so I would completely expect Kupp's numbers to be better than Rice's. An accurate comparison would factor that difference into the comparison before crowning Kupp the greatest FCS receiver based on statistics.

UNI88 wrote:

JohnStOnge wrote:
I understand the attempt to make that argument but i don't think it's a good argument. When you talk about the "best ever" in FCS how they do in the NFL is relevant to that question. It's not "apples and oranges."

What happens is you get to compare apples to apples when they get to the NFL.

If you've got one wide receiver who runs up a bunch of gaudy stats in I-AA/FCS but you've got another wide reciever who clearly shows himself to be the better wide receiver in the NFL the guy who shows himself to be the better wide receiver in the NFL is the better wide receiver. And he was the better wide receiver when he was in FCS. He's just a better player at the position. And there's no real argument to the contrary.

John, here you go again taking perfectly legitimate facts/statistics to prove the indisputable truth of your position but forgetting that the priority/importance/weight you are giving the facts/statistics is completely subjective. Your argument while valid is no more valid or definitive than Kalm's.

Case in point, if you were to attempt to determine the greatest UNI QB of all time using your approach than Kurt Warner would clearly be #1. If you were to use actual accomplishments while at UNI then Eric Sanders (3+ year starter, 2-time conference champion, led team to FCS championship game and quarterfinals) beats Warner (1 year starter on conference championship team that lost in the first round of the Playoffs) hands down.

On the flip side of comparing FCS/I-AA statistics for Rice vs. Kupp is the difference in offensive approaches between then and now. Offenses run more plays and throw more passes today so I would completely expect Kupp's numbers to be better than Rice's. An accurate comparison would factor that difference into the comparison before crowning Kupp the greatest FCS receiver based on statistics.

That's a good analogy 88. Case in point, was Tom Brady the best QB ever at Michigan? or in FBS?

JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:01 pm

Gil Dobie wrote:
I don't think they are getting the point that FCS Greatest doesn't include NFL career. That is apples and oranges. Compare Jerry Rice FCS/I-AA vs Kupp FCS for that title.

I understand the attempt to make that argument but i don't think it's a good argument. When you talk about the "best ever" in FCS how they do in the NFL is relevant to that question. It's not "apples and oranges."

What happens is you get to compare apples to apples when they get to the NFL.

If you've got one wide receiver who runs up a bunch of gaudy stats in I-AA/FCS but you've got another wide reciever who clearly shows himself to be the better wide receiver in the NFL the guy who shows himself to be the better wide receiver in the NFL is the better wide receiver. And he was the better wide receiver when he was in FCS. He's just a better player at the position. And there's no real argument to the contrary.

This post has aged so, so well.

JSO, arbiter of all things, was right on the money about Cooper Kupp’s failure in the NFL. He only led the league in Yards, catches, yards, and targets.

Yep. Verifiable BUST, eh JSO???

Too bad EWU choked that 2016 semifinal game. Would have been cool to see Cupp go up against that JMU secondary, best in FCS 16’-17’ (2 of whom have started games in the NFL), in Frisco.

Would have beem a better NC game than JMU/YSU. JMU was up 21-0 middle of the 2nd and 28-7 late, won 28-14.