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kalm wrote:

Baldy wrote: Not to mention, the Sun Belch as a whole (Eastern Division specifically) is heads and shoulders better than the MVFC, which is head and shoulders better than the rest of FCS...according to JSO's Sagarin anyway.

Massey has NDSU at 18, App State at 41, Princeton at 51, SDSU at 56, EWU at 63, Dartmouth at 78 and Georgia Southern at 79.

Sounds like the old Socon would at least be competitive in the MVFC, Big Sky and Ivy with 22 more scholarships.

Yes, and I have no doubt that Princeton or Dartmouth would be favored against a TCU, or OK State or App, or Virginia, or GS, etc. etc. etc.

kalm wrote:

Baldy wrote: Not to mention, the Sun Belch as a whole (Eastern Division specifically) is heads and shoulders better than the MVFC, which is head and shoulders better than the rest of FCS...according to JSO's Sagarin anyway.

Massey has NDSU at 18, App State at 41, Princeton at 51, SDSU at 56, EWU at 63, Dartmouth at 78 and Georgia Southern at 79.

Sounds like the old Socon would at least be competitive in the MVFC, Big Sky and Ivy with 22 more scholarships.

I'm not really sure what your point is, here.

Here's a pooled SBC/MVFC ranking from Massey.
5 of the top 7 are SBC
7 of the bottom 10 are MVFC

1. NDSU (18)
2. App State (41)
3. South Dakota State (56)
4. Troy (71)
5. Georgia Southern (79)
6. Arkansas State (81)
7. Louisiana (99)
8. Northern Iowa (111)
9. ULM (114)
10. Illinois State (116)
11. Indiana State (117)
12. Western Illinois (123)
13. Coastal Carolina (130)
14. South Dakota (137)
15. Youngstown State (146)
16. Georgia State (160)
17. South Alabama (162)
18. Texas State (169)
19. Missouri State (172)
20. SIU (177)

Gil Dobie wrote:

89Hen wrote: It's been over for a long time. I've never seen a worse beating than what Gil and Kalm took on this thread. Kalm is close to admitting he was wrong, but I don't thing Gil will.

Sorry CAAn't take the CAAn't win fans seriously.

Yup. The ones with facts, stats and a lot of watching I-AA football over 30+ years. What do we know?

BTW, if Maine does beat EWU that would be what, the SEVENTH DIFFERENT CAA school to make the chipper since 2006?

Pwns wrote:

kalm wrote:
Massey has NDSU at 18, App State at 41, Princeton at 51, SDSU at 56, EWU at 63, Dartmouth at 78 and Georgia Southern at 79.

Sounds like the old Socon would at least be competitive in the MVFC, Big Sky and Ivy with 22 more scholarships.

I'm not really sure what your point is, here.

Here's a pooled SBC/MVFC ranking from Massey.
5 of the top 7 are SBC
7 of the bottom 10 are MVFC

1. NDSU (18)
2. App State (41)
3. South Dakota State (56)
4. Troy (71)
5. Georgia Southern (79)
6. Arkansas State (81)
7. Louisiana (99)
8. Northern Iowa (111)
9. ULM (114)
10. Illinois State (116)
11. Indiana State (117)
12. Western Illinois (123)
13. Coastal Carolina (130)
14. South Dakota (137)
15. Youngstown State (146)
16. Georgia State (160)
17. South Alabama (162)
18. Texas State (169)
19. Missouri State (172)
20. SIU (177)

Why not include all FCS in there especially the BSC and Ivy? Massey should be rated higher than all, they have 22 more schollies and better funding. The Sun Belt is a glorified FCS conference that plays in bull games.

Pwns wrote:

kalm wrote:
Massey has NDSU at 18, App State at 41, Princeton at 51, SDSU at 56, EWU at 63, Dartmouth at 78 and Georgia Southern at 79.

Sounds like the old Socon would at least be competitive in the MVFC, Big Sky and Ivy with 22 more scholarships.

I'm not really sure what your point is, here.

Here's a pooled SBC/MVFC ranking from Massey.
5 of the top 7 are SBC
7 of the bottom 10 are MVFC

1. NDSU (18)
2. App State (41)
3. South Dakota State (56)
4. Troy (71)
5. Georgia Southern (79)
6. Arkansas State (81)
7. Louisiana (99)
8. Northern Iowa (111)
9. ULM (114)
10. Illinois State (116)
11. Indiana State (117)
12. Western Illinois (123)
13. Coastal Carolina (130)
14. South Dakota (137)
15. Youngstown State (146)
16. Georgia State (160)
17. South Alabama (162)
18. Texas State (169)
19. Missouri State (172)
20. SIU (177)

Here's a pro tip:
If you're FBS and even having to debate this, you're already losing...

Chizzang wrote:

Pwns wrote:
I'm not really sure what your point is, here.

Here's a pooled SBC/MVFC ranking from Massey.
5 of the top 7 are SBC
7 of the bottom 10 are MVFC

1. NDSU (18)
2. App State (41)
3. South Dakota State (56)
4. Troy (71)
5. Georgia Southern (79)
6. Arkansas State (81)
7. Louisiana (99)
8. Northern Iowa (111)
9. ULM (114)
10. Illinois State (116)
11. Indiana State (117)
12. Western Illinois (123)
13. Coastal Carolina (130)
14. South Dakota (137)
15. Youngstown State (146)
16. Georgia State (160)
17. South Alabama (162)
18. Texas State (169)
19. Missouri State (172)
20. SIU (177)

Here's a pro tip:
If you're FBS and even having to debate this, you're already losing...

Chizzang wrote: Here's a pro tip:
If you're FBS and even having to debate this, you're already losing...

I don't know who "you" is here. I still follow the SoCon , Kennesaw, and the FCS playoffs, and I'm speaking as someone who has followed the subdivision for a long time. and I've bent over backwards here to say I think the FCS doesn't need Georgia Southern and App State to be more respectable even though losing those teams hurt it.

What I take from kalm's post is we'd be the FCS #6 in Massey, and among playoff-participating schools #4. Myself and most of our fans would tell you our current team isn't overly exceptional compared to the great teams we've had in the past.

Don't get reeled in by these fishermen. They lost this argument pages and pages ago.

89Hen wrote:Don't get reeled in by these fishermen. They lost this argument pages and pages ago.

This argument was lost for you on a Mario Brown wheel route with about 3:30 to play in the 3rd quarter on 1/7/2011.

89Hen wrote:

Gil Dobie wrote:
Sorry CAAn't take the CAAn't win fans seriously.

Yup. The ones with facts, stats and a lot of watching I-AA football over 30+ years. What do we know?

BTW, if Maine does beat EWU that would be what, the SEVENTH DIFFERENT CAA school to make the chipper since 2006?

I've only been watching Bison football since 1967, so I have a little catching up to do. Back when they beat Montana in a couple bowl games, lost to San Diego St in another. Saw them play I-AA schools over that time, prior to 2003. Beat NAU in 1980, BBQ in 1979. Always wanted to see the Bison play GSU back in the options days to see who was better.

89Hen wrote:Don't get reeled in by these fishermen. They lost this argument pages and pages ago.

If you keep saying it, you may start believing it. We know ECB bias when we see it.

.

Gil Dobie wrote:

89Hen wrote:Don't get reeled in by these fishermen. They lost this argument pages and pages ago.

If you keep saying it, you may start believing it. We know ECB bias when we see it.

Kalm and Gil...

kalm wrote:

Gil Dobie wrote:
If you keep saying it, you may start believing it. We know ECB bias when we see it.

Kalm and Gil...

Pwns wrote:

kalm wrote:
Massey has NDSU at 18, App State at 41, Princeton at 51, SDSU at 56, EWU at 63, Dartmouth at 78 and Georgia Southern at 79.

Sounds like the old Socon would at least be competitive in the MVFC, Big Sky and Ivy with 22 more scholarships.

I'm not really sure what your point is, here.

Here's a pooled SBC/MVFC ranking from Massey.
6 of the top 10 are SBC
6 of the bottom 10 are MVFC

1. NDSU (18)
2. App State (41)
3. South Dakota State (56)
4. Troy (71)
5. Georgia Southern (79)
6. Arkansas State (81)
7. Louisiana (99)
8. Northern Iowa (111)
9. ULM (114)
10. Illinois State (116)
11. Indiana State (117)
12. Western Illinois (123)
13. Coastal Carolina (130)
14. South Dakota (137)
15. Youngstown State (146)
16. Georgia State (160)
17. South Alabama (162)
18. Texas State (169)
19. Missouri State (172)
20. SIU (177)

fyi - Texas State is in the Belt.

Based only on Massey, the Sunbelt appears to be slightly better than the MVFC in 2018. How do the numbers look for 2017, 2016, etc.? Regardless, Cleets is right.

89Hen wrote:Don't get reeled in by these fishermen. They lost this argument pages and pages ago.

No they didn't. You and 93 have made some very valid arguments but so have Kalm, Gil and JSO but none of them have been knockout punches that show the other side is wrong.

Yes it hurt FCS to lose GSU and Appy. Losing ODU and Coastal didn't really hurt. ODU was a pass through, FCS for 5 years (and only playoff eligible for 4). Coastal was a great story but they weren't successful for long enough for their loss to really hurt the FCS. Kennesaw is well on its way to replacing Coastal in FCS. I would argue that having traditional powers like Furman and Deliwhere down on their luck has been just as hard on FCS as losing GSU and Appy.

It's hard to judge the increased competition for scholarships because that doesn't occur in a vacuum. Yes there are more scholarships available and more competition for quality players. There are also probably fewer kids playing football at the high school and youth levels. But you also have better training and coaching so the kids that are playing today are on average better than they were 10-20 years ago. I also think you have fewer kids who want to be a walk-on at Football Factory University and are more open to actually playing for lower level (G5 and FCS) teams.

It would seem that FCS teams beat FBS teams a little more frequently than they used to and a greater number of teams are pulling off those upsets. If the quality of football played in the FCS is down then so is the quality of football played at the G5 and P5 FBS level.

UNI88 wrote:

89Hen wrote:Don't get reeled in by these fishermen. They lost this argument pages and pages ago.

No they didn't. You and 93 have made some very valid arguments but so have Kalm, Gil and JSO but none of them have been knockout punches that show the other side is wrong.

Yes it hurt FCS to lose GSU and Appy. Losing ODU and Coastal didn't really hurt. ODU was a pass through, FCS for 5 years (and only playoff eligible for 4). Coastal was a great story but they weren't successful for long enough for their loss to really hurt the FCS. Kennesaw is well on its way to replacing Coastal in FCS. I would argue that having traditional powers like Furman and Deliwhere down on their luck has been just as hard on FCS as losing GSU and Appy.

It's hard to judge the increased competition for scholarships because that doesn't occur in a vacuum. Yes there are more scholarships available and more competition for quality players. There are also probably fewer kids playing football at the high school and youth levels. But you also have better training and coaching so the kids that are playing today are on average better than they were 10-20 years ago. I also think you have fewer kids who want to be a walk-on at Football Factory University and are more open to actually playing for lower level (G5 and FCS) teams.

It would seem that FCS teams beat FBS teams a little more frequently than they used to and a greater number of teams are pulling off those upsets. If the quality of football played in the FCS is down then so is the quality of football played at the G5 and P5 FBS level.

All of this....



When a three win Idaho State is beating Nevada, an SLC not named SHSU has an P5 scalp, and a MEAC kid is tearing it up on Sunday Night Football, I'd say FCS is just fine from a talent standpoint. Bigger, faster, better athletes and at least as competitive against FBS.

Sunbelt Fans...
when about to enter an FCS debate

89Hen wrote:Don't get reeled in by these fishermen. They lost this argument pages and pages ago.

They're like a self help group for battered wives.

I was really disappointed when NDSU finally did play Georgia Southern in 2006. Back when FCS was strong. Beating the Eagles 34-14 below the 6 FCS flags flying proudly over their stadium. Oh, and the 2003 FCS playoff team that lost to NDSU at another fabled venue, a DII in transition. Both teams refused return games to Fargo. But this was back when FCS was soooooo much stronger.

Baldy wrote:

89Hen wrote:Don't get reeled in by these fishermen. They lost this argument pages and pages ago.

They're like a self help group for battered wives.

pwns and Baldy...

kalm wrote:

Baldy wrote: They're like a self help group for battered wives.

pwns and Baldy...

That's it, buddy...lash out. I know it's frustrating, but you'll feel better.

Gil Dobie wrote:

89Hen wrote: Yup. The ones with facts, stats and a lot of watching I-AA football over 30+ years. What do we know?

BTW, if Maine does beat EWU that would be what, the SEVENTH DIFFERENT CAA school to make the chipper since 2006?

I've only been watching Bison football since 1967, so I have a little catching up to do. Back when they beat Montana in a couple bowl games, lost to San Diego St in another. Saw them play I-AA schools over that time, prior to 2003. Beat NAU in 1980, BBQ in 1979. Always wanted to see the Bison play GSU back in the options days to see who was better.

Bully for you. So you saw a dozen I-AA games.

Gil Dobie wrote:

89Hen wrote:Don't get reeled in by these fishermen. They lost this argument pages and pages ago.

If you keep saying it, you may start believing it. We know ECB bias when we see it.

That might be the most stupid comment you've ever made on CS.com.

Baldy wrote:

kalm wrote:
pwns and Baldy...

That's it, buddy...lash out. I know it's frustrating, but you'll feel better.

It's ok, brother. My moobs are getting quite large too.

BTW, EWU has 3 open dates next year and it's a 12 game season. Know of any SBC teams that need to pick up a home game? We could use an FBS scalp.