Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby 89Hen » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:46 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
89Hen wrote:Yup. The ones with facts, stats and a lot of watching I-AA football over 30+ years. What do we know? :roll:

BTW, if Maine does beat EWU that would be what, the SEVENTH DIFFERENT CAA school to make the chipper since 2006?


I've only been watching Bison football since 1967, so I have a little catching up to do. Back when they beat Montana in a couple bowl games, lost to San Diego St in another. Saw them play I-AA schools over that time, prior to 2003. Beat NAU in 1980, BBQ in 1979. Always wanted to see the Bison play GSU back in the options days to see who was better.

Bully for you. So you saw a dozen I-AA games. :lol: :dunce:
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby 89Hen » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:47 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
89Hen wrote:Don't get reeled in by these fishermen. They lost this argument pages and pages ago.


If you keep saying it, you may start believing it. We know ECB bias when we see it.

That might be the most stupid comment you've ever made on CS.com. :lol:
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby kalm » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:52 am

Baldy wrote:
kalm wrote:
pwns and Baldy...

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That's it, buddy...lash out. I know it's frustrating, but you'll feel better. :thumb:


It's ok, brother. My moobs are getting quite large too.

BTW, EWU has 3 open dates next year and it's a 12 game season. Know of any SBC teams that need to pick up a home game? We could use an FBS scalp. :thumb:
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:54 am

89Hen wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
I've only been watching Bison football since 1967, so I have a little catching up to do. Back when they beat Montana in a couple bowl games, lost to San Diego St in another. Saw them play I-AA schools over that time, prior to 2003. Beat NAU in 1980, BBQ in 1979. Always wanted to see the Bison play GSU back in the options days to see who was better.

Bully for you. So you saw a dozen I-AA games. :lol: :dunce:


I was a FCS/I-AA season ticket holder during the decade you guys are saying, was so much better than this decade. So yes, I see a dozen game a year. :D
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby 89Hen » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:56 am

kalm wrote:When a three win Idaho State is beating Nevada, an SLC not named SHSU has an P5 scalp, and a MEAC kid is tearing it up on Sunday Night Football, I'd say FCS is just fine from a talent standpoint. Bigger, faster, better athletes and at least as competitive against FBS.

:lol: You've made it abundantly clear you don't know I-AA history. The MEAC and SWAC used to put more players in the NFL than any other I-AA conferences. I guess you don't remember a Northwestern State beating TCU back in the early 2000's. A 3 win ISU beating a 3 win Nevada... sounds similar to a 20013 5 DI win EWU beating Idaho. IOW, a big nothing burger.

So much fail on your side. :lol:
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby 89Hen » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:59 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
89Hen wrote:Bully for you. So you saw a dozen I-AA games. :lol: :dunce:


I was a FCS/I-AA season ticket holder during the decade you guys are saying, was so much better than this decade. So yes, I see a dozen game a year. :D

You have very little to compare. You're too close to a dominant team to see the big picture and the ebbs and flows. I still think you're bitter because this talk of the division being down somehow makes you think we're trying to put down NDSU. As I said before, that's not the case.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby kalm » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:32 am

89Hen wrote:
kalm wrote:When a three win Idaho State is beating Nevada, an SLC not named SHSU has an P5 scalp, and a MEAC kid is tearing it up on Sunday Night Football, I'd say FCS is just fine from a talent standpoint. Bigger, faster, better athletes and at least as competitive against FBS.

:lol: You've made it abundantly clear you don't know I-AA history. The MEAC and SWAC used to put more players in the NFL than any other I-AA conferences. I guess you don't remember a Northwestern State beating TCU back in the early 2000's. A 3 win ISU beating a 3 win Nevada... sounds similar to a 20013 5 DI win EWU beating Idaho. IOW, a big nothing burger.

So much fail on your side. :lol:


Ummm yeah...if the title of the thread was "The MEAC and SWAC are Worse Now and therefore so is all of FCS"

I was just giving a couple examples off the top of my head about the CURRENT state of FCS. I can dig up some more if you'd like.

The SWAC and MEAC are down but still putting players in the league. EWU has two wins against ranked Pac 12 opponents. SAC state has two PAC 12 wins this decade.

You haters have already lost the computer ratings debate. Perhaps you should give us a year by year analysis of FBS wins. That might help your argument.

PS...I'm sorry the CAA'nt struggled this year and has been owned by the PL and NEC champs in the playoffs lately, but you still have a shot at redemption with the Black Bears and I'm guessing SBU and Elon will continue to show improvement over the next few years.

:lol:
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:33 am

89Hen wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
I was a FCS/I-AA season ticket holder during the decade you guys are saying, was so much better than this decade. So yes, I see a dozen game a year. :D

You have very little to compare. You're too close to a dominant team to see the big picture and the ebbs and flows. I still think you're bitter because this talk of the division being down somehow makes you think we're trying to put down NDSU. As I said before, that's not the case.


Not bitter, just don't understand your statement of how FCS was better, when it looks very similar to what it was in the previous decade. Just different teams at the top.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby 89Hen » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:43 am

kalm wrote:
89Hen wrote: :lol: You've made it abundantly clear you don't know I-AA history. The MEAC and SWAC used to put more players in the NFL than any other I-AA conferences. I guess you don't remember a Northwestern State beating TCU back in the early 2000's. A 3 win ISU beating a 3 win Nevada... sounds similar to a 20013 5 DI win EWU beating Idaho. IOW, a big nothing burger.

So much fail on your side. :lol:


Ummm yeah...if the title of the thread was "The MEAC and SWAC are Worse Now and therefore so is all of FCS"

I was just giving a couple examples off the top of my head about the CURRENT state of FCS. I can dig up some more if you'd like.

The SWAC and MEAC are down but still putting players in the league. EWU has two wins against ranked Pac 12 opponents. SAC state has two PAC 12 wins this decade.

You haters have already lost the computer ratings debate. Perhaps you should give us a year by year analysis of FBS wins. That might help your argument.

PS...I'm sorry the CAA'nt struggled this year and has been owned by the PL and NEC champs in the playoffs lately, but you still have a shot at redemption with the Black Bears and I'm guessing SBU and Elon will continue to show improvement over the next few years.

:lol:

1. YOU were the one using MEAC to try to prop up your argument, so that's a big loss on your end.
2. I'm not a hater dumb ass. I'm still a UD and I-AA fan.
3. I did not use computer ratings, so go take that up with others that did.
4. The CAA is down, that's true. So is the SoCon. So is the OVC.
5. Didn't a CAA team still manage to beat the #2 tourney seed from the Big Sky on the road?
6. You suck for keeping this thread going.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby 89Hen » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:44 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
89Hen wrote:You have very little to compare. You're too close to a dominant team to see the big picture and the ebbs and flows. I still think you're bitter because this talk of the division being down somehow makes you think we're trying to put down NDSU. As I said before, that's not the case.


Not bitter, just don't understand your statement of how FCS was better, when it looks very similar to what it was in the previous decade. Just different teams at the top.

Looks to you and Kalm. Others that have been around I-AA a lot longer see it for what it is. I don't give a rats ass who is at the top. This isn't an old school vs new school debate.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:52 am

89Hen wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
Not bitter, just don't understand your statement of how FCS was better, when it looks very similar to what it was in the previous decade. Just different teams at the top.

Looks to you and Kalm. Others that have been around I-AA a lot longer see it for what it is. I don't give a rats ass who is at the top. This isn't an old school vs new school debate.


It looks like CAA and So Con fans, that are down right now, are claiming FCS is down, while others that are up, are saying the opposite. You've only been watching it for 30 years, but claim to be the old wise owl on the issue. I've watched the I-AA games with Montana, Marshall and Georgia Southern, probably all 6 championships. Just because your team isn't I-AA, doesn't mean you are not watching games.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby kalm » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:56 am

89Hen wrote:
kalm wrote:
Ummm yeah...if the title of the thread was "The MEAC and SWAC are Worse Now and therefore so is all of FCS"

I was just giving a couple examples off the top of my head about the CURRENT state of FCS. I can dig up some more if you'd like.

The SWAC and MEAC are down but still putting players in the league. EWU has two wins against ranked Pac 12 opponents. SAC state has two PAC 12 wins this decade.

You haters have already lost the computer ratings debate. Perhaps you should give us a year by year analysis of FBS wins. That might help your argument.

PS...I'm sorry the CAA'nt struggled this year and has been owned by the PL and NEC champs in the playoffs lately, but you still have a shot at redemption with the Black Bears and I'm guessing SBU and Elon will continue to show improvement over the next few years.

:lol:

1. YOU were the one using MEAC to try to prop up your argument, so that's a big loss on your end.
Again, just a quick example off the top of my head that's true.
2. I'm not a hater dumb ass. I'm still a UD and I-AA fan.
I'm sorry...hugs?
3. I did not use computer ratings, so go take that up with others that did.
I know you don't like the computers and I typically appreciate your points in that regard so sorry for including you in that shot. :mrgreen: But other than computer archives and FBS wins, what else do we really have to support 93's theory? Eyeballs? :lol:
4. The CAA is down, that's true. So is the SoCon. So is the OVC.
The Socon was down this year a bit but pretty good a couple of years ago. Remember when the Citadel beat USC? :mrgreen: The OVC was actually up this year with two playoff wins by two separate teams. SEMO looked pretty decent.
5. Didn't a CAA team still manage to beat the #2 tourney seed from the Big Sky on the road?
Yes...because that BSC team played CAA style offense... :ohno: :mrgreen: Maine's front 7 is really, really good.
6. You suck for keeping this thread going.

Still friends?
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby 89Hen » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:05 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
89Hen wrote:Looks to you and Kalm. Others that have been around I-AA a lot longer see it for what it is. I don't give a rats ass who is at the top. This isn't an old school vs new school debate.


It looks like CAA and So Con fans, that are down right now, are claiming FCS is down, while others that are up, are saying the opposite. You've only been watching it for 30 years, but claim to be the old wise owl on the issue. I've watched the I-AA games with Montana, Marshall and Georgia Southern, probably all 6 championships. Just because your team isn't I-AA, doesn't mean you are not watching games.

:lol: There's a lot more to it than watching games. I've been active on I-AA message boards since 1996 (back in the AOL and eScribe days). I ran the poll for AGS for many years. I've paid as much attention to I-AA football as any fan. Hell, I've even gotten in arguments with Ken Massey over ratings. :lol:
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby 89Hen » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:06 am

kalm wrote:Still friends?

Of course dum dum. :D
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:11 am

89Hen wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
It looks like CAA and So Con fans, that are down right now, are claiming FCS is down, while others that are up, are saying the opposite. You've only been watching it for 30 years, but claim to be the old wise owl on the issue. I've watched the I-AA games with Montana, Marshall and Georgia Southern, probably all 6 championships. Just because your team isn't I-AA, doesn't mean you are not watching games.

:lol: There's a lot more to it than watching games. I've been active on I-AA message boards since 1996 (back in the AOL and eScribe days). I ran the poll for AGS for many years. I've paid as much attention to I-AA football as any fan. Hell, I've even gotten in arguments with Ken Massey over ratings. :lol:


I was there starting in 2003, when you were the tsar of the AGS poll. I still have a perfect record of voting since the day the AGS poll started.

The arguments with Ken Massey, now I know why this thread never dies. :lol:
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Gil Dobie » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:52 am

93henfan wrote:
kalm wrote:

LIke I said, it's all perspective. You've provided very little to prove your point.


No, it's more than perspective.

Here are the final rankings in D1 of the top 5 FCS/I-AA teams by year in Sagarin:

2018: 31, 58, 80, 83, 85 (avg 67.4)

Last 5 years of last decade
2010: 52, 57, 58, 72, 75 (62.8)
2009: 30, 49, 57, 60, 76 (54.4)
2008: 41, 45, 62, 63, 69 (56.0)
2007: 44, 62, 67, 71, 73 (63.4)
2006: 53, 57, 59, 70, 71 (62.0)

So even with NDSU figured in, current FCS is decidedly weaker. Take away NDSU and it's WAY weaker.


Update for 2018
2018: 17, 58, 68, 78, 88 (avg 61.8)
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby kalm » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:01 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
93henfan wrote:
No, it's more than perspective.

Here are the final rankings in D1 of the top 5 FCS/I-AA teams by year in Sagarin:

2018: 31, 58, 80, 83, 85 (avg 67.4)

Last 5 years of last decade
2010: 52, 57, 58, 72, 75 (62.8)
2009: 30, 49, 57, 60, 76 (54.4)
2008: 41, 45, 62, 63, 69 (56.0)
2007: 44, 62, 67, 71, 73 (63.4)
2006: 53, 57, 59, 70, 71 (62.0)

So even with NDSU figured in, current FCS is decidedly weaker. Take away NDSU and it's WAY weaker.


Update for 2018
2018: 17, 58, 68, 78, 88 (avg 61.8)


Why...that's almost as bad as 2006 and 2007!

:lol:
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby 93henfan » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:15 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
93henfan wrote:
No, it's more than perspective.

Here are the final rankings in D1 of the top 5 FCS/I-AA teams by year in Sagarin:

2018: 31, 58, 80, 83, 85 (avg 67.4)

Last 5 years of last decade
2010: 52, 57, 58, 72, 75 (62.8)
2009: 30, 49, 57, 60, 76 (54.4)
2008: 41, 45, 62, 63, 69 (56.0)
2007: 44, 62, 67, 71, 73 (63.4)
2006: 53, 57, 59, 70, 71 (62.0)

So even with NDSU figured in, current FCS is decidedly weaker. Take away NDSU and it's WAY weaker.


Update for 2018
2018: 17, 58, 68, 78, 88 (avg 61.8)


Thanks for continuing to validate my point. It's NDSU and everyone else. And everyone else is worse than ten years ago. :thumb:

You know how I know I won this argument (other than it being obvious)? You're revisiting my weeks old posts to try to refute them. (And still failing.). They obviously stuck in your craw. :D
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby Gil Dobie » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:28 am

93henfan wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
Update for 2018
2018: 17, 58, 68, 78, 88 (avg 61.8)


Thanks for continuing to validate my point. It's NDSU and everyone else. And everyone else is worse than ten years ago. :thumb:

You know how I know I won this argument (other than it being obvious)? You're revisiting my weeks old posts to try to refute them. (And still failing.). They obviously stuck in your craw. :D


I'm just updating the post, and it looks like teams have improved since the original post.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby 93henfan » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:31 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
93henfan wrote:
Thanks for continuing to validate my point. It's NDSU and everyone else. And everyone else is worse than ten years ago. :thumb:

You know how I know I won this argument (other than it being obvious)? You're revisiting my weeks old posts to try to refute them. (And still failing.). They obviously stuck in your craw. :D


I'm just updating the post, and it looks like teams have improved since the original post.


I would hope so, since all opponents are playoff caliber at this point. And as you can see, #2 (SDSU) hasn't moved at all, while NDSU has pulled away.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby kalm » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:39 am

93henfan wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
I'm just updating the post, and it looks like teams have improved since the original post.


I would hope so, since all opponents are playoff caliber at this point. And as you can see, #2 (SDSU) hasn't moved at all, while NDSU has pulled away.


And that didn't happen in year's past?

Here's Massey 2018

14, 53, 57, 64, 83 (54.2)

Massey 2007

44, 71, 76, 77, 78 (69.2)

Sagarin heavily rates SoS over w/l. I've seen several numbers guys say that Massey is statistically the more accurate of the two.

You're still losing and EWU's number should drop further regardless of outcome.

:clap:
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby 89Hen » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:50 am

kalm wrote:I've seen several numbers guys say that Massey is statistically the more accurate of the two

Isn't Massey the one that has Princeton #2 and Dartmouth #5 in all of I-AA? :rofl:

And Harvard #18 with four losses? :rofl: :rofl:
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby 93henfan » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:50 am

kalm wrote:
93henfan wrote:
I would hope so, since all opponents are playoff caliber at this point. And as you can see, #2 (SDSU) hasn't moved at all, while NDSU has pulled away.


And that didn't happen in year's past?

Here's Massey 2018

14, 53, 57, 64, 83 (54.2)

Massey 2007

44, 71, 76, 77, 78 (69.2)

Sagarin heavily rates SoS over w/l. I've seen several numbers guys say that Massey is statistically the more accurate of the two.

You're still losing and EWU's number should drop further regardless of outcome.

:clap:


I already won this argument long ago. You have nothing. And Massey is inferior to Sagarin.
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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby kalm » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:06 am

89Hen wrote:
kalm wrote:I've seen several numbers guys say that Massey is statistically the more accurate of the two

Isn't Massey the one that has Princeton #2 and Dartmouth #5 in all of I-AA? :rofl:

And Harvard #18 with four losses? :rofl: :rofl:


Probably. And as pointed out above, Sagarin has a 10-3 SDSU not change after the loss remaining at #2 ahead of a 12-2 EWU with similar SoS. :lol:

I didn't bring the computers into this discussion and I view them strictly as a resource for SoS. But since 93 chose them as one of his main data points other than eyeballs it's only fair to show both Sagarin and Massey.

Point being, not much has changed in computer ratings since the 2000's. Some years go up, some go down. Some year's or stretches of years with dominant teams that skew the overall average up and some don't, skewing it down.

I will point out that since Saturday's win over Maine was by far the most dominant for EWU over a CAA'nt foe in our 3 wins against 1 loss, perhaps conference bias and a down CAA'nt (despite the record bids) is influencing 93's view.

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Re: Is FCS (Beside NDSU) Really This Bad?

Postby 89Hen » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:13 am

kalm wrote:But since 93 chose them as one of his main data points other than eyeballs it's only fair to show both Sagarin and Massey.

:lol: Or, you just wanted to use one that supported your position better. :coffee:
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