THE BIG EAST CONFERENCE

[GannonFan]

If you can honestly say that Texas in 2008-09 was an elite team then we're at an impasse here. Teams are ranked early in the season for plenty of "valid" reasons, most of which are based on how they performed in the year prior. There is no better evaluator and judge of how good a team is than the regular season they play in, and to look at that you need to look at where teams ended up just prior to the tourney, and even for that matter, in the tourney. Texas was a #7 seed in the tourney and got bounced by the first weekend. By no such measure would anyone call Texas, at that point in time for that season, "elite".

Oh, and I did the work for you already and looked at who nova played then and where those teams ended up, both at the end of the year by their NCAA seedings and by how they did in the tournament. All you have to do is to acknowledge that your original point, that nova is playing a similar schedule this year (total of two games against top teams by kenpom) is the same as they played the last time they went deep in the tournament (when they played ten games against top teams by kenpom) was wrong. I've already proven it to be wrong, just waiting on the acknowledgement.

When you alter the argument, there is no acknowledgement that needs to be made. You originally said elite teams and now you are adding to it, which is not what I was arguing. You clearly belong on the politics board because you can spin anything.

How is this altering the argument? Are you still trying to say that Texas, a #7 seed in the tourney who lost by the first weekend, was elite? There would be 24 other teams in the tournament who had better seeds than they did, so how is that elite? Again, you said,

Let's test this theory of yours about facing elite teams during the season and being prepared for the NCAA tournament. Let's take the most recent example of the 2008-2009 season where Nova reached the final 4. Elite teams will be considered top 10. During that season, Nova played #6 Texas, #3 UCONN, #3 Pitt, and #5 Louisville. They went 1-3. So how is that different than this season exactly?

I countered with kenpom's top 20 list. Heck, you have Texas, a #7 seed, being elite, and then didn't have Syracuse, a #3 seed that year, being elite, nor two other #6 seeds (WVU and Marquette), as being elite that year. And then, on top of that, you basically said that today's Big East isn't as good as the old Big East when you said, and again I quote,

...but I have never said this Big East is just as good as the old one

Forget the personal diatribe, stick to the argument here. Is nova, this year, playing a hard enough schedule? You're the one who brought up the schedule they faced in 2008-09, but somehow you skipped over the quality of that schedule and said it was similar to this year's. I've proven it otherwise. You got anything else?

[clenz]

This....

This is the epitome of being "small time"



Why the fuck would Nova licence that?

[GannonFan]

Oh no, Luke Winn from SI puts out a list of 8 teams who can win it all and he excludes, of all teams, villanova for the list.

http://www.si.com/college-basketball/20 ... s-kentucky

He says "

but I also vowed to limit myself to one three-point-dependent team, and that was Oklahoma. And as much as ‘Nova has been dominating the Big East, the impressions it left in its two nonconference games against fellow contenders (Virginia and Oklahoma) suggested that this team’s ceiling may be more “Final Four” than “national champ.”

Yikes, I don't know where I've heard that stuff before (i.e. three point dependent team or how the performance inside the conference differs versus outside of it). Golly, if I didn't know any better I would think that I might actually be Luke Winn and writing for SI.

[Seahawks08]

This....

This is the epitome of being "small time"



Why the **** would Nova licence that?

It's called making money. Nova being #1 for the first time in its history may be a big deal to some people.

Now, for the people who buy that, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Seahawks08]

Again, I clearly stated that I picked elite teams from the top 10 rankings when they played. So yes, we are at an impasse on that argument.

And the only part of the schedule I brought up from 08-09 is the top 10 opponents, not the entire schedule like you did. But would I like a harder schedule? Yes. I want Delaware removed and replaced with a competent team. In addition, I want Depaul out of the Big East and replaced with a program that can actually move up in a conference once in a while.

Is nova this year playing a hard enough schedule? I think it is since nova has been in a lot of dogfights that they've managed to get out of unscathed. And that is thanks to their excellent free throw percentage.

And btw, I am still waiting to hear some good news about nova from you since you know, you say you are a fan...

[vutomcat]

For a person who criticizes others for reading comprehension, you may want to read my post again.

Excellent research, but that wasn't the argument.

And you have been right about Providence so far (is that enough props for ya?), but let's wait until the season concludes before boasting.

That was the argument. You said, and I quote,

Let's test this theory of yours about facing elite teams during the season and being prepared for the NCAA tournament. Let's take the most recent example of the 2008-2009 season where Nova reached the final 4. Elite teams will be considered top 10. During that season, Nova played #6 Texas, #3 UCONN, #3 Pitt, and #5 Louisville. They went 1-3. So how is that different than this season exactly?

I countered that you were parsing the data incorrectly. Sure, Texas was #6 in the nation when the 08-09 nova team played them (they played in December that year), but Texas ended up being a #7 seed and bounced early from the tournament in March that year. That was an error on your part. I countered with the correct listing of quality teams that nova played that year (thanks is large part to the quality that was the old Big East conference, aka prior to the mass exodus) and showed that they actually played 10 games that year, in conference play (so in Jan through March). That's different than the 2 games they've played so far this year, both OOC, and both played in the middle of December. So tell me what part of your post means something other than what you wrote.

That's been the basis of this entire thread. In the old Big East, nova was challenged and got better and better as the year went on because they consistently played top flight teams all the way leading up to the tournament in March. Now, in the new Big East, nova ends up feasting on a conference schedule of lightweights after the OOC schedule basically ends in mid December and isn't properly ready for the rigors of the tournament in March.

Love it when you use KenPom to support an argument against Nova and ignore that the very same system you use to support your theory has them as the #1 team in the country.

I'll give you a break and use the AP poll so you don't look so bad. Right now the Cats will have played teams ranked 3, 6 (exhibition), 7 and 8 (probably three times). That's 5 or 6 games against the top 8 teams that they will play this year. Pretty stiff competition. The type of schedule that would prepare a team for the rigors of the NCAA tournament. Much tougher than last year but you have failed to recognize that because of your wrecking ball mentality when it comes to Nova and the Big East.

I thought you were a Nova fan. You should be ashamed.

[GannonFan]

That was the argument. You said, and I quote,


I countered that you were parsing the data incorrectly. Sure, Texas was #6 in the nation when the 08-09 nova team played them (they played in December that year), but Texas ended up being a #7 seed and bounced early from the tournament in March that year. That was an error on your part. I countered with the correct listing of quality teams that nova played that year (thanks is large part to the quality that was the old Big East conference, aka prior to the mass exodus) and showed that they actually played 10 games that year, in conference play (so in Jan through March). That's different than the 2 games they've played so far this year, both OOC, and both played in the middle of December. So tell me what part of your post means something other than what you wrote.

That's been the basis of this entire thread. In the old Big East, nova was challenged and got better and better as the year went on because they consistently played top flight teams all the way leading up to the tournament in March. Now, in the new Big East, nova ends up feasting on a conference schedule of lightweights after the OOC schedule basically ends in mid December and isn't properly ready for the rigors of the tournament in March.

Love it when you use KenPom to support an argument against Nova and ignore that the very same system you use to support your theory has them as the #1 team in the country.

I'll give you a break and use the AP poll so you don't look so bad. Right now the Cats will have played teams ranked 3, 6 (exhibition), 7 and 8 (probably three times). That's 5 or 6 games against the top 8 teams that they will play this year. Pretty stiff competition. The type of schedule that would prepare a team for the rigors of the NCAA tournament. Much tougher than last year but you have failed to recognize that because of your wrecking ball mentality when it comes to Nova and the Big East.

I thought you were a Nova fan. You should be ashamed.

Now we're counting exhibition games??? Man, you are too funny!!!! When did they play, Halloween? Very useful!!!!!

[GannonFan]

Again, I clearly stated that I picked elite teams from the top 10 rankings when they played. So yes, we are at an impasse on that argument.

And the only part of the schedule I brought up from 08-09 is the top 10 opponents, not the entire schedule like you did. But would I like a harder schedule? Yes. I want Delaware removed and replaced with a competent team. In addition, I want Depaul out of the Big East and replaced with a program that can actually move up in a conference once in a while.

Is nova this year playing a hard enough schedule? I think it is since nova has been in a lot of dogfights that they've managed to get out of unscathed. And that is thanks to their excellent free throw percentage.

And btw, I am still waiting to hear some good news about nova from you since you know, you say you are a fan...

Don't let vutom hear that, he's on record that DePaul is a major program that is just temporarily down on their luck. Any year now we'll see the real DePaul!

Like I said, if you're going to rely on the rankings of teams when they played, especially early season rankings before the teams had even played more than a handful of games, then yes, we're going to disagree. I'm amazed that you're holding to that contention that Texas, circa that year as a #7 seed, could be considered elite, and not teams that had better seeds than they did, but sometimes people do hold fast to crazy ideas.

I like nova's chances tonight against Temple (see, good news). I don't think Temple can score enough to keep up with nova. Another good game in the Big 5 tonight with St. Joe's playing Dayton. Good time to be a Big 5 fan (which I am, not just solely a nova fan - I'm pretty much like most other Philly fans that way).

[vutomcat]

Love it when you use KenPom to support an argument against Nova and ignore that the very same system you use to support your theory has them as the #1 team in the country.

I'll give you a break and use the AP poll so you don't look so bad. Right now the Cats will have played teams ranked 3, 6 (exhibition), 7 and 8 (probably three times). That's 5 or 6 games against the top 8 teams that they will play this year. Pretty stiff competition. The type of schedule that would prepare a team for the rigors of the NCAA tournament. Much tougher than last year but you have failed to recognize that because of your wrecking ball mentality when it comes to Nova and the Big East.

I thought you were a Nova fan. You should be ashamed.

Now we're counting exhibition games??? Man, you are too funny!!!! When did they play, Halloween? Very useful!!!!!

Yes, when we are supporting an argument that Nova has played a competitive schedule and that exhibition was against Maryland the 6th ranked team in the country and they beat them.

Leave it you to concentrate on that part of the post and ignore the rest that proves your year long theory is flawed. Based on Nova's SOS this year you should be arguing that they will move right through to the Sweet Sixteen or Elite Eight. What gives?

[89Hen]

My guess is villanova will lose in the Sweet 16 on some strange or questionable play so neither GF nor tomcat will be able to settle this.

Hey mods, can you just shut this thread down until mid March?

[GannonFan]

Now we're counting exhibition games??? Man, you are too funny!!!! When did they play, Halloween? Very useful!!!!!

Yes, when we are supporting an argument that Nova has played a competitive schedule and that exhibition was against Maryland the 6th ranked team in the country and they beat them.

Leave it you to concentrate on that part of the post and ignore the rest that proves your year long theory is flawed. Based on Nova's SOS this year you should be arguing that they will move right through to the Sweet Sixteen or Elite Eight. What gives?

Again, I can't believe you actually posted an exhibition game in late October/early November as justification for a tough schedule. Desperation must have finally set in.

And nova's SOS this year, again calculated high by the likes of kenpom, just like it was high the year before, and high the year before that, is just a number. The new Big East's best selling point is that it doesn't have a bunch of really awful teams. Most everybody, other than DePaul and St John's, are average level teams. That keeps the SOS up. What is missing, of course, is the number of games against truly top competition. nova had a great SOS two years ago when the only "top" team they played was Creighton, who, like nova that year, bombed out early. That's what was great about Seahawks08 bringing up the 2008-09 schedule. nova that year, in the old Big East, played three #1 seeds, played a #3 seed, and played two #6 seeds, all in conference. They didn't need an OOC schedule to be good that year. This year, eh, not so much.

[GannonFan]

My guess is villanova will lose in the Sweet 16 on some strange or questionable play so neither GF nor tomcat will be able to settle this.

Hey mods, can you just shut this thread down until mid March?

Heck, why would one year settle this? We've had the past two years and the pom pom wavers still resist any comment that isn't overwhelmingly positive. I'm sure they were out of towners who went to nova because no self respecting Philly fan would ever be so resistant to constructive criticism.

[vutomcat]

My guess is villanova will lose in the Sweet 16 on some strange or questionable play so neither GF nor tomcat will be able to settle this.

Hey mods, can you just shut this thread down until mid March?

Heck, why would one year settle this? We've had the past two years and the pom pom wavers still resist any comment that isn't overwhelmingly positive. I'm sure they were out of towners who went to nova because no self respecting Philly fan would ever be so resistant to constructive criticism.

You meant constant, right?


Number one team in the nation (sounds good doesn't it?) rolls along beating Temple soundly at Liacouras. A solid win against a bubble team. Butler next victim.

[vutomcat]

#3, #4 and #5 teams go down last night...

[vutomcat]

for just the 4th time in the last 20 years three top 5 teams lost on the same day

[vutomcat]

Games against top 10 RPI

UNC- 1 game- (win over Maryland
Kansas- 4 games (2 wins over Oklahoma 1 over Kentucky and a loss to West Virginia)
Villanova 3 games (I win over Xavier and 2 losses to Ok and Va )
Xavier 1 game (loss to Nova)
Oklahoma 3 games ( I win over Nova and 2 losses to Kansas)
Iowa- 1 game ( loss to Md)
Maryland no games against the top 10 (unless you count the Nova exhibition loss)
Virginia 2 games ( wins against Nova and Miami)

[GannonFan]

Games against top 10 RPI

UNC- 1 game- (win over Maryland
Kansas- 4 games (2 wins over Oklahoma 1 over Kentucky and a loss to West Virginia)
Villanova 3 games (I win over Xavier and 2 losses to Ok and Va )
Xavier 1 game (loss to Nova)
Oklahoma 3 games ( I win over Nova and 2 losses to Kansas)
Iowa- 1 game ( loss to Md)
Maryland no games against the top 10 (unless you count the Nova exhibition loss)
Virginia 2 games ( wins against Nova and Miami)

Too small of a sample - go out to the top 20 RPI and redo the numbers. I'll give you a hint, the next Big East team on the RPI's list is the team I labeled, correctly it turns out, as a fraud. Providence sits at #37. A whole lot of Big 12, Big Ten, and ACC teams before then. But the RPI has always been suspect anyway, too dependent on records of the opponents and it is pretty weak statistically. Kenpom routinely does a better job of predicting, among others. Oh, and Kenpom has Providence at #56. I know you don't want to use that model because Xavier is only at #15 and still no other Big East teams in the top 30.

[GannonFan]

Heck, why would one year settle this? We've had the past two years and the pom pom wavers still resist any comment that isn't overwhelmingly positive. I'm sure they were out of towners who went to nova because no self respecting Philly fan would ever be so resistant to constructive criticism.

You meant constant, right?


Number one team in the nation (sounds good doesn't it?) rolls along beating Temple soundly at Liacouras. A solid win against a bubble team. Butler next victim.

Nonsense, I remember being on this board and touting how good Brunson is going to be, despite you being a negative nellie in that respect. I told you Brunson could be the difference nova needs to at least get past the first weekend and it's looking more and more that way every game. He'll be money against an #8 or #9 seed, which is all nova has to beat to make the Sweet 16. I'm not sure Temple is that high of a seed - they're a tourney team, no doubt, but they don't have the firepower to probably win a first round game. But upsets do happen so who knows.

Good night for Philly hoops, though, with the nova/Temple game going down just an hour after St Joe's tipped off and had a huge win against Dayton. That should get St Joe's into the top 25 next week. If they get a favorable matchup in the tourney they could win a game or two. They have to stay out of the 8/9 and the 7/10 slot because they'll get killed by a 1 or 2 seed. They could actually be better off as an 11 seed. I like them in a 6/11 game if the 6 seed is Providence.

[Seahawks08]

Again, I clearly stated that I picked elite teams from the top 10 rankings when they played. So yes, we are at an impasse on that argument.

And the only part of the schedule I brought up from 08-09 is the top 10 opponents, not the entire schedule like you did. But would I like a harder schedule? Yes. I want Delaware removed and replaced with a competent team. In addition, I want Depaul out of the Big East and replaced with a program that can actually move up in a conference once in a while.

Is nova this year playing a hard enough schedule? I think it is since nova has been in a lot of dogfights that they've managed to get out of unscathed. And that is thanks to their excellent free throw percentage.

And btw, I am still waiting to hear some good news about nova from you since you know, you say you are a fan...

Don't let vutom hear that, he's on record that DePaul is a major program that is just temporarily down on their luck. Any year now we'll see the real DePaul!

Like I said, if you're going to rely on the rankings of teams when they played, especially early season rankings before the teams had even played more than a handful of games, then yes, we're going to disagree. I'm amazed that you're holding to that contention that Texas, circa that year as a #7 seed, could be considered elite, and not teams that had better seeds than they did, but sometimes people do hold fast to crazy ideas.

I like nova's chances tonight against Temple (see, good news). I don't think Temple can score enough to keep up with nova. Another good game in the Big 5 tonight with St. Joe's playing Dayton. Good time to be a Big 5 fan (which I am, not just solely a nova fan - I'm pretty much like most other Philly fans that way).

Yea, such a crazy idea. I also can't believe you actually believe that a seed in the tournament determines what teams are elite at any point during the year. I am sorry, but the NCAA committee looks at who you beat AT THAT GIVEN TIME. We saw this play out when Nova beat a ranked Iowa team a couple of years ago in an early tournament. Even though Iowa wound up not living up to the ranking, beating them at the time was considered a quality win. Same thing when they beat #2 Kansas. Same thing with #6 Texas. I am done arguing with you over this.

[GannonFan]

Don't let vutom hear that, he's on record that DePaul is a major program that is just temporarily down on their luck. Any year now we'll see the real DePaul!

Like I said, if you're going to rely on the rankings of teams when they played, especially early season rankings before the teams had even played more than a handful of games, then yes, we're going to disagree. I'm amazed that you're holding to that contention that Texas, circa that year as a #7 seed, could be considered elite, and not teams that had better seeds than they did, but sometimes people do hold fast to crazy ideas.

I like nova's chances tonight against Temple (see, good news). I don't think Temple can score enough to keep up with nova. Another good game in the Big 5 tonight with St. Joe's playing Dayton. Good time to be a Big 5 fan (which I am, not just solely a nova fan - I'm pretty much like most other Philly fans that way).

Yea, such a crazy idea. I also can't believe you actually believe that a seed in the tournament determines what teams are elite at any point during the year. I am sorry, but the NCAA committee looks at who you beat AT THAT GIVEN TIME. We saw this play out when Nova beat a ranked Iowa team a couple of years ago in an early tournament. Even though Iowa wound up not living up to the ranking, beating them at the time was considered a quality win. Same thing when they beat #2 Kansas. Same thing with #6 Texas. I am done arguing with you over this.

Then I get the last word then. Looking at the ranking of a team in November or early December is always a poor way to look at it. Texas was ranked that high because they made it to the Elite 8 the previous year. However, nova wasn't playing the previous year team, they were playing the team that would finish 5th in the Big 12. Not a bad team, mind you, but not elite either.

[bandl]

I am done arguing with you over this.

Don't stop. The rest of us are enjoying this horse-beating.

[vutomcat]

You meant constant, right?


Number one team in the nation (sounds good doesn't it?) rolls along beating Temple soundly at Liacouras. A solid win against a bubble team. Butler next victim.

Nonsense, I remember being on this board and touting how good Brunson is going to be, despite you being a negative nellie in that respect. I told you Brunson could be the difference nova needs to at least get past the first weekend and it's looking more and more that way every game. He'll be money against an #8 or #9 seed, which is all nova has to beat to make the Sweet 16. I'm not sure Temple is that high of a seed - they're a tourney team, no doubt, but they don't have the firepower to probably win a first round game. But upsets do happen so who knows.

Good night for Philly hoops, though, with the nova/Temple game going down just an hour after St Joe's tipped off and had a huge win against Dayton. That should get St Joe's into the top 25 next week. If they get a favorable matchup in the tourney they could win a game or two. They have to stay out of the 8/9 and the 7/10 slot because they'll get killed by a 1 or 2 seed. They could actually be better off as an 11 seed. I like them in a 6/11 game if the 6 seed is Providence.

Wrong again. Show me the negative post about Brunson from me.

[vutomcat]

Games against top 10 RPI

UNC- 1 game- (win over Maryland
Kansas- 4 games (2 wins over Oklahoma 1 over Kentucky and a loss to West Virginia)
Villanova 3 games (I win over Xavier and 2 losses to Ok and Va )
Xavier 1 game (loss to Nova)
Oklahoma 3 games ( I win over Nova and 2 losses to Kansas)
Iowa- 1 game ( loss to Md)
Maryland no games against the top 10 (unless you count the Nova exhibition loss)
Virginia 2 games ( wins against Nova and Miami)

Too small of a sample - go out to the top 20 RPI and redo the numbers. I'll give you a hint, the next Big East team on the RPI's list is the team I labeled, correctly it turns out, as a fraud. Providence sits at #37. A whole lot of Big 12, Big Ten, and ACC teams before then. But the RPI has always been suspect anyway, too dependent on records of the opponents and it is pretty weak statistically. Kenpom routinely does a better job of predicting, among others. Oh, and Kenpom has Providence at #56. I know you don't want to use that model because Xavier is only at #15 and still no other Big East teams in the top 30.

Now there you go again! I am fine using Ken Pom. It shows what a nitwit you are. (WHO IS NUMBER ONE?)

And, your failed flawed theory (can't believe you are still trying to use that this year) was based on Nova playing only average top 50 teams and not being toughened by the top flight teams. Those are pretty much the top teams in the country there that I used and unless you are blind- ( hey maybe that's your issue- the rest of us should post in braille so you don't lag behind?) you can see that Nova has as many or more than most of the other contenders for the title.

p.s- have fun looking for that Brunson post that doesn't exist.

[GannonFan]

Too small of a sample - go out to the top 20 RPI and redo the numbers. I'll give you a hint, the next Big East team on the RPI's list is the team I labeled, correctly it turns out, as a fraud. Providence sits at #37. A whole lot of Big 12, Big Ten, and ACC teams before then. But the RPI has always been suspect anyway, too dependent on records of the opponents and it is pretty weak statistically. Kenpom routinely does a better job of predicting, among others. Oh, and Kenpom has Providence at #56. I know you don't want to use that model because Xavier is only at #15 and still no other Big East teams in the top 30.

Now there you go again! I am fine using Ken Pom. It shows what a nitwit you are. (WHO IS NUMBER ONE?)

And, your failed flawed theory (can't believe you are still trying to use that this year) was based on Nova playing only average top 50 teams and not being toughened by the top flight teams. Those are pretty much the top teams in the country there that I used and unless you are blind- ( hey maybe that's your issue- the rest of us should post in braille so you don't lag behind?) you can see that Nova has as many or more than most of the other contenders for the title.

p.s- have fun looking for that Brunson post that doesn't exist.

So you're sticking with the RPI, even though it's not really a valid statistical model, and you're going with just the top 10 and ignoring what comes after that? Good to know where you gave up.

I believe you ripped Brunson when you said he wasn't as good as Arcidiacono. Brunson playing last year as a high school senior against NC State would've given nova a better chance to win than Arci did. Brunson's the kind of player they need who can shine in March, not just November.

[vutomcat]

Now there you go again! I am fine using Ken Pom. It shows what a nitwit you are. (WHO IS NUMBER ONE?)

And, your failed flawed theory (can't believe you are still trying to use that this year) was based on Nova playing only average top 50 teams and not being toughened by the top flight teams. Those are pretty much the top teams in the country there that I used and unless you are blind- ( hey maybe that's your issue- the rest of us should post in braille so you don't lag behind?) you can see that Nova has as many or more than most of the other contenders for the title.

p.s- have fun looking for that Brunson post that doesn't exist.

So you're sticking with the RPI, even though it's not really a valid statistical model, and you're going with just the top 10 and ignoring what comes after that? Good to know where you gave up.

I believe you ripped Brunson when you said he wasn't as good as Arcidiacono. Brunson playing last year as a high school senior against NC State would've given nova a better chance to win than Arci did. Brunson's the kind of player they need who can shine in March, not just November.

1) You really think I gave up after slicing and dicing you all over this thread? I'll use whatever computer rankings I want thank you. This is too much fun GF! Your point was that other teams played the "toughest" top 50 teams and Nova did not. I have proven you wrong. You still think this is 2015. You are so steeped in this argument that the facts are escaping you.


2) Another example here. You believe a lot of things that are inaccurate. Never happened. Couldn't find it could you? Talk about giving up!!!