Ichiro Wins 10th Gold Glove

[Silenoz]

Seriously, you Math Leaguers just don't get baseball

That's like something Joe Morgan would say



Or Dusty Baker....


Anyways I'm out. Traditionalists vs sabermetrics type arguments never go anywhere in my experience

[JoltinJoe]

It's like a match play tournament where one guy plays on one course and someone else plays an entirely different course.

Exactly. And if you're the pitcher who draws the better offense, that's just part of the game. It is still match play.

[GannonFan]

[quote="GannonFan" It's like a match play tournament where one guy plays on one course and someone else plays an entirely different course.

Exactly. And if you're the pitcher who draws the better offense, that's just part of the game. It is still match play.[/quote]

So if one guy is playing a Putt Putt course and the other guy is playing Augusta, it's just part of the game and you can judge the quality of the golfers based on how each do on their respective holes? So maybe I really am better than Tiger Woods - I mean, I can pretty much two putt every miniature golf hole assuming there's no spinning windmill in play.

[JoltinJoe]

If you pitch a complete game, and give up 2 unearned runs, you've done your job and then some.

I understand completely what you're saying and I agree with a lot of it. This is the comment I don't agree with. "The job" is to win. Hey, if a guy goes 9 innings and gets hosed by 2 unearned runs, I might feel that he got a bad deal that night, but I wouldn't say he's "done his job."

As my high school coach use to say don't tell me that you should have won, because that means you didn't win.

That's what bugs me about sabermetricians -- they are all about what should have happened ... not what about what did happen.

I feel the same way at work. As an attorney, there have been many cases in which I thought I did a "good job" but ultimately did not do "the job" because my client didn't get the result it wanted. It's true in baseball too. There's a difference between doing a "good job" and doing "the job."

[JoltinJoe]

[quote="GannonFan" It's like a match play tournament where one guy plays on one course and someone else plays an entirely different course.

Exactly. And if you're the pitcher who draws the better offense, that's just part of the game. It is still match play.

So if one guy is playing a Putt Putt course and the other guy is playing Augusta, it's just part of the game and you can judge the quality of the golfers based on how each do on their respective holes? So maybe I really am better than Tiger Woods - I mean, I can pretty much two putt every miniature golf hole assuming there's no spinning windmill in play. [/quote]

Gannon, you've jumped the shark.

I tell you what. You arrange a match with Tiger Woods in which he plays Augusta and you play a putt-putt course. If you win, I'll say you were better than Tiger Woods (on that given day).

[JoltinJoe]

Seriously, you Math Leaguers just don't get baseball

That's like something Joe Morgan would say



Or Dusty Baker....


Anyways I'm out. Traditionalists vs sabermetrics type arguments never go anywhere in my experience

I'm sure it is something they would say. Of course, both men have made millions playing, watching, and managing baseball.

And you've made how much from baseball?

[JoltinJoe]

double post

[Silenoz]

If you pitch a complete game, and give up 2 unearned runs, you've done your job and then some.

I understand completely what you're saying and I agree with a lot of it. This is the comment I don't agree with. "The job" is to win. Hey, if a guy goes 9 innings and gets hosed by 2 unearned runs, I might feel that he got a bad deal that night, but I wouldn't say he's "done his job."

As my high school coach use to say don't tell me that you should have won, because that means you didn't win.

That's what bugs me about sabermetricians -- they are all about what should have happened ... not what about what did happen.

I feel the same way at work. As an attorney, there have been many cases in which I thought I did a "good job" but ultimately did do "the job" because my client didn't get the result it wanted. It's true in baseball too. There's a difference between doing a "good job" and doing "the job."

Well, if you were 1 attorney amongst 9-13 others, and you indeed did your portion of the work that 99% could not be improved upon, then yes, in my opinion.

I.E. if the 2nd baseman on a team goes 5-for-5 on a day, all home runs, and turns 5 double plays on extremely athletic moves, all while not giving up a single hit anywhere near his portion of the field, and the teams loses, he has failed to do his job? Because his job, like everyone on the team, is to perform his duties as best possible in order to put the team in the position to win.

If a field goal kicker goes 5-for-5 on the night, hits every XP, and sails every kickoff through the back of the endzone, he's done his job. Even if his team loses by 1 because the defense cannot stop anything to save their lives.

[Gil Dobie]

Had a bad month of May, 4.79 ERA. Hernandez had a 2.90 era at the end of July, finished at a torrid pace and lowered it to 2.34 by the end of the season. Too bad there was no pennant race in Seattle.

[JoltinJoe]

I understand completely what you're saying and I agree with a lot of it. This is the comment I don't agree with. "The job" is to win. Hey, if a guy goes 9 innings and gets hosed by 2 unearned runs, I might feel that he got a bad deal that night, but I wouldn't say he's "done his job."

As my high school coach use to say don't tell me that you should have won, because that means you didn't win.

That's what bugs me about sabermetricians -- they are all about what should have happened ... not what about what did happen.

I feel the same way at work. As an attorney, there have been many cases in which I thought I did a "good job" but ultimately did do "the job" because my client didn't get the result it wanted. It's true in baseball too. There's a difference between doing a "good job" and doing "the job."

Well, if you were 1 attorney amongst 9-13 others, and you indeed did your portion of the work that 99% could not be improved upon, then yes, in my opinion.

I.E. if the 2nd baseman on a team goes 5-for-5 on a day, all home runs, and turns 5 double plays on extremely athletic moves, all while not giving up a single hit anywhere near his portion of the field, and the teams loses, he has failed to do his job? Because his job, like everyone on the team, is to perform his duties as best possible in order to put the team in the position to win.

If a field goal kicker goes 5-for-5 on the night, hits every XP, and sails every kickoff through the back of the endzone, he's done his job. Even if his team loses by 1 because the defense cannot stop anything to save their lives.

Not talking about football here. I never played or coached football at any level sufficient enough to take positions on who has done "their job."

Your example about the second baseman is, of course, an extreme, because if any player had a day like that, it is doubtful that his team lost. Nonetheless, the "match play" which exists in baseball offense is different than the personal match play between starting pitchers. This player in your example helped his offense; however, the offense, as a whole, didn't outperform the opponent's offense.

It was always an awkward moment when an offensive player who had a big personal day seemed happy after a loss. Not that I ever did that.

FWIW, any team player would take an O-fer and win than a 5-for-5 night and lose.