Greatest Baseball Player of this Generation?

[DJH]

That is purely unsubstantiated bullshit, that is spewed by Jeter haters.

Just because you don't understand the stats that substantiate it, doesn't mean it's unsubstantiated...

Show me the stats.

[free7694]

Just because you don't understand the stats that substantiate it, doesn't mean it's unsubstantiated...

Show me the stats.

His career numbers by the three main defensive metrics……

Ultimate Zone Rating = -114.4 runs
Total Zone = -131 runs
Defensive Runs Saved = -122 runs

He's an awful defensive SS.

[JoltinJoe]

There's no point discussing these things when saber geeks start talking about WAR, UZR, etc.

These stats are important to people who never played the game and really don't understand baseball, but they try to pretend that they do. You can't discuss baseball with the Math League.

[JoltinJoe]

Career WAR: Ripken - 89.9, Jeter 70.4

Ripken was better, it's not that close.

Also, I'll replace A-Rod, Bonds and Pudge with Gwynn, Helton and Chipper.

Ripken is also ahead of Joe DiMaggio, Albert Pujols, Roberto Clemente, Ken Griffey Jr, Pete Rose on the all-time WAR rating. Adding career WAR does not make a player greater than another, it just means they were healthy, no military service, no injuries, and continued to perform at a high level like Ripken. It pays not to miss game when career WAR comes into play.

Gil, of course you are right, but when a Saber geeks starts talking about WAR, there's no point to the discussion anymore.

The Math League gets so far removed from what happens on the field. Don't you understand that the actual results on the field are now secondary to the mathematical reformulations of the Math League?

All these years we were comparing, for example, Jeter against Ripken heads up, and noting that Jeter has a career BA which nearly 40 points higher, a higher career slugging percentage, a higher on-base percentage, and a higher OPS. And so we would reach the conclusion that Jeter was the better player.

Little did we know, and we need the kids from the Math League to tell us, that what we should have been doing is not directly comparing the actual results of an actual player against the actual results of an another actual player.

Instead, we should be comparing the actual results of these players against a hypothetical results of a hypothetical replacement player, and then determining how much both of these actual players and their actual numbers are better or worse than this hypothetical player and his hypothetical results.

[JoltinJoe]

Show me the stats.

His career numbers by the three main defensive metrics……

Ultimate Zone Rating = -114.4 runs
Total Zone = -131 runs
Defensive Runs Saved = -122 runs

He's an awful defensive SS.

All those runs allowed -- when were they scored? Show me, not on your EXCEL spreadsheet, but in the game. Point to actual runs which actually scored because of some play Jeter did not make that some other SS would have made.

Throughout his career, Jeter has been an above average shortstop. His weakness is his range to his left, where is below average. He is much stronger going into the hole, well above average. He is among the elite at the SS position in ranging to cover flies in the OF. He is among the elite in the game in making plays on balls he can field. He has an average arm but makes up for that with a quick release. He has excellent instincts and average mechanics and footwork on turning the DP. I can see this all with my own eyes.

[bandl]

My take:
Is Jeter the best of this generation? No

Is Jeter one of the best of this generation? Absolutely, seems there is a solid list of 10-15 players who could be annointed as a better player, but the fact that he is being lumped in with those players speaks volumes for Jeter. Nothing wrong with being one of the best players of a generation. Although I'm sure Jeter will take the rings he owns over anything anyone to say about him in a positive light

Is Cal better than Jeter? (Removes orange & black colored glasses) No way, except that Cal was a better fielding SS that Jeter and a stronger hitter. Without Cal's longevity though (which is something that should not be taken lightly btw) I don't even think we're having this discussion

Is there anything wrong with being a singles hitter? Absolutely not. A multiple-run homer is more exciting and damaging to the opposing team than a single-run homer. Besides, do we want steroid users or not?

[AshevilleApp]

A player that often gets overlooked is Miguel Cabrera who is half way to 3000 hits and 500 home runs at age 28. He is often on the leader board in Avg, HR and RBI's, and already has a ring with Florida, his rookie season. He has a different drug problem, if he doesn't drink himself out of the game, he should have some great numbers in the end.

[JoltinJoe]

My take:
Is Jeter the best of this generation? No

Is Jeter one of the best of this generation? Absolutely, seems there is a solid list of 10-15 players who could be annointed as a better player, but the fact that he is being lumped in with those players speaks volumes for Jeter. Nothing wrong with being one of the best players of a generation. Although I'm sure Jeter will take the rings he owns over anything anyone to say about him in a positive light

Is Cal better than Jeter? (Removes orange & black colored glasses) No way, except that Cal was a better fielding SS that Jeter and a stronger hitter. Without Cal's longevity though (which is something that should not be taken lightly btw) I don't even think we're having this discussion

Is there anything wrong with being a singles hitter? Absolutely not. A multiple-run homer is more exciting and damaging to the opposing team than a single-run homer. Besides, do we want steroid users or not?

Putting aside my pro-Jeter posturing (hey, we all have a role here), I'd say this post gets it right, although I think Jeter is pretty safely within the top 10 (personally). I also think his alleged defensive deficiencies are exaggerated, although it is fair to observe that Ripken overall was better defensively. It is true Jeter has always lacked range to his left.

These debates can be fun, though, because when you are debating Jeter v. Ripken, it's akin to arguing Van Gogh or Picasso, or Megan Fox v. Odette Yustman. The fact that they are in the debate, and people care enough to have the debate, means they've reached an elite status.

[Ivytalk]

Pooholes.

If he played in New York, there wouldn't be a doubt.

I'd say no. 2, behind Griffey, who was/is simply the all around better player.

Griffey hung around a few years too long, IMHO.

[bench]

There's no point discussing these things when saber geeks start talking about WAR, UZR, etc.

These stats are important to people who never played the game and really don't understand baseball, but they try to pretend that they do. You can't discuss baseball with the Math League.

oh jesus fuck it's joe morgan

[Silenoz]

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hiops1.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

/thread

If I find any good VORP or Eqa totals I'll post those too because I already know who will be leading the way...

[JoltinJoe]

Joe Morgan! Thanks for the compliment!

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Assuming that "this generation" means ballplayers from 1990-2010 (the most recently completed season)

The best since 1990:

1. Griffey Jr. (how quickly we forget how good he was for 12 years - before the injuries)
2. Pujols (look at his numbers - look at his defense - what he is doing ranks him in the ALL time greats)
3. Bonds* (yes, yes... steroids... even before he took them he'd have been a top 5 guy)
4. Thomas (again, we forget how dominant the Big Hurt was in the 90's)
5. Bagwell (overlooked because of where he played - unfairly lumped in with the roids guys too)
6. Thome (he'd be 4th - but I'll move him back for the DHing he's done)
7. Ichiro (200+ hits guaranteed - gold glove defense - a cannon for an arm)
8. Chipper
9. Jeter
10. Gwynn (only this far down because it was the second half of his career in the time-frame)/Biggio/Larkin

Pitchers are a different matter entirely.

Jeter's a top-10 guy - he's got a near top-10 WAR (for those of us who use SABR as a tool) - then there is the human factor...

however... all of that being said - I still maintain, because of where he played... he may be the most overrated ballplayer of all damn time.

also - UNH get fucking real... PEDRO? Seriously? what Pedro had was a five year run that will put him in the HoF and deservedly... (esp. 1999, IIRC) but he wasn't the best pitcher of the generation (a fight between Maddux, Glavine and Johnson) let alone the best player...

[Grizalltheway]

Assuming that "this generation" means ballplayers from 1990-2010 (the most recently completed season)

The best since 1990:

1. Griffey Jr. (how quickly we forget how good he was for 12 years - before the injuries)
2. Pujols (look at his numbers - look at his defense - what he is doing ranks him in the ALL time greats)
3. Bonds* (yes, yes... steroids... even before he took them he'd have been a top 5 guy)
4. Thomas (again, we forget how dominant the Big Hurt was in the 90's)
5. Bagwell (overlooked because of where he played - unfairly lumped in with the roids guys too)
6. Thome (he'd be 4th - but I'll move him back for the DHing he's done)
7. Ichiro (200+ hits guaranteed - gold glove defense - a cannon for an arm)
8. Chipper
9. Jeter
10. Gwynn (only this far down because it was the second half of his career in the time-frame)/Biggio/Larkin

Pitchers are a different matter entirely.

Jeter's a top-10 guy - he's got a near top-10 WAR (for those of us who use SABR as a tool) - then there is the human factor...

however... all of that being said - I still maintain, because of where he played... he may be the most overrated ballplayer of all damn time.

also - UNH get fucking real... PEDRO? Seriously? what Pedro had was a five year run that will put him in the HoF and deservedly... (esp. 1999, IIRC) but he wasn't the best pitcher of the generation (a fight between Maddux, Glavine and Johnson) let alone the best player...

Good list, but I'm pretty sure Pujols will move ahead of Jr before his career is said and done.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Assuming that "this generation" means ballplayers from 1990-2010 (the most recently completed season)

The best since 1990:

1. Griffey Jr. (how quickly we forget how good he was for 12 years - before the injuries)
2. Pujols (look at his numbers - look at his defense - what he is doing ranks him in the ALL time greats)
3. Bonds* (yes, yes... steroids... even before he took them he'd have been a top 5 guy)
4. Thomas (again, we forget how dominant the Big Hurt was in the 90's)
5. Bagwell (overlooked because of where he played - unfairly lumped in with the roids guys too)
6. Thome (he'd be 4th - but I'll move him back for the DHing he's done)
7. Ichiro (200+ hits guaranteed - gold glove defense - a cannon for an arm)
8. Chipper
9. Jeter
10. Gwynn (only this far down because it was the second half of his career in the time-frame)/Biggio/Larkin

Pitchers are a different matter entirely.

Jeter's a top-10 guy - he's got a near top-10 WAR (for those of us who use SABR as a tool) - then there is the human factor...

however... all of that being said - I still maintain, because of where he played... he may be the most overrated ballplayer of all damn time.

also - UNH get fucking real... PEDRO? Seriously? what Pedro had was a five year run that will put him in the HoF and deservedly... (esp. 1999, IIRC) but he wasn't the best pitcher of the generation (a fight between Maddux, Glavine and Johnson) let alone the best player...

Good list, but I'm pretty sure Pujols will move ahead of Jr before his career is said and done.

HIGHLY likely... but remember - Junior started getting hurt at the age Albert is now* (if you believe he's as young as he says he is)

[DJH]

Please, Bagwell was a juicer. Thomas probably was as well...

[Grizalltheway]

Please, Bagwell was a juicer. Thomas probably was as well...

You don't seem to care that Bonds was.

[DJH]

Please, Bagwell was a juicer. Thomas probably was as well...

You don't seem to care that Bonds was.

I don't?

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Please, Bagwell was a juicer. Thomas probably was as well...

Proof? or just idle speculation? that's the same kind of bullshit that kept him out of the HoF... it's complete unsubstantiated bullshit - he puts up big power numbers in an era when a lot of guys are doping so he "must be too" why not use the same conjecture for Thome? (about whom just as little evidence exists as Bagwell or Thomas)

[DJH]

I don't include Thome, because he's like 40 years old now and still jacking HRs in the post-steroid era.

[Grizalltheway]

You don't seem to care that Bonds was.

I don't?

Well, you had no problem saying he was better than Griffey.

[DJH]

I don't?

Well, you had no problem saying he was better than Griffey.

Before that, I said "if you discount the steroids".

[Grizalltheway]

Well, you had no problem saying he was better than Griffey.

Before that, I said "if you discount the steroids".

And I said "if it weren't for Griffey's injuries". So, IMO, if Barry hadn't been a juicer, and Griffey hadn't been hurt so much, Griffey would be considered the better player.

[JoltinJoe]

Derek Jeter.

/thread

Hey, it got the conversation going.

[citdog]

Derek Jeter.

/thread

Hey, it got the conversation going.

nice job......opie