Report Says Big Papi, Manny On 2003 Failed Test List

[T-Dog]

I really don't care who uses and who doesn't use.

[clenz]

So all these players did something that was legal and it is being made into a huge deal?

[Col Hogan]

So all these players did something that was legal and it is being made into a huge deal?

Apples and oranges...while the use was not prohibited by the contract at the time, it was illegal in these here United States to sell, or possess illegal steroids...since you have to possess to use, then, yess, they did something illegal....but did not violate their contract...

[clenz]

So all these players did something that was legal and it is being made into a huge deal?

Apples and oranges...while the use was not prohibited by the contract at the time, it was illegal in these here United States to sell, or possess illegal steroids...since you have to possess to use, then, yess, they did something illegal....but did not violate their contract...

Right, so why is what they did, in a baseball sense, wrong?

I get it was illegal in terms of corrections.

[JoltinJoe]

Can't have it both ways JJ....if you have your suspicions about Gonzalez, certainly others are entitled to have their suspicions about some of your Yanks

Uhh, he's a lawyer, of course he can.

[JoltinJoe]

So all these players did something that was legal and it is being made into a huge deal?

Apples and oranges...while the use was not prohibited by the contract at the time, it was illegal in these here United States to sell, or possess illegal steroids...since you have to possess to use, then, yess, they did something illegal....but did not violate their contract...

Your're right, but at this point, though, what does it matter from a baseball perspective? It's seems for the most part it's been a level playing field for the past 10 years or so.

Still, my official line for Travis is: 2004*, 2007*.

[UNHWildCats]

The Mitchell Report says they were clean in 1999. You have to read it.

Isn't the Mitchell Report all based on word of mouth testimony? How can you possibly put 100% stock in that?

Because its the goddamn Yankees, and golly what ever the Yankees say is how it is.

[bandl]

You have nothing to verify that they were clean in 1999. Just like you have nothing at all to verify your suspicion that Gonzalez was juicing.

Just like everyone else, you need to take off the blinders and admit to the suspicions that the Yankees were just as guilty as every other MLB team of juicing.

The Mitchell Report says they were clean in 1999. You have to read it.

I have.

[JoltinJoe]

The Mitchell Report says they were clean in 1999. You have to read it.

I have.

Then explain how PED use which starts after 2001 can be said to taint tiles won in 1998 or 1999? These are the player excerpts from the Mitchell Report for Pettitte, Knoblauch, and Stanton. It is clear Pettitte tried HGH to rehab from an injury in 2002; Knoblauch, a fading platoon player by 2000, tried it to resurrect his career starting in 2001; and Stanton started in 2003 as a Met.

Andy Pettitte

Andy Pettitte is a pitcher who since 1995 has played with two teams in Major League Baseball, the New York Yankees (10 seasons) and the Houston Astros (3 seasons). He has been named to the All-Star team twice and was Most Valuable Player in the 2001 American League Championship Series.

McNamee began serving as Pettitte's personal trainer and started assisting Pettitte in off-season workouts after the 1999 season. According to McNamee, during the 2001-02 offseason, Pettitte asked him about human growth hormone. McNamee said that he discouraged Pettitte from using human growth hormone at that time.

From April 21 to June 14, 2002, Pettitte was on the disabled list with elbow tendonitis.395 McNamee said that Pettitte called him while Pettitte was rehabilitating his elbow in Tampa, where the Yankees have a facility, and asked again about human growth hormone. Pettitte stated that he wanted to speed his recovery and help his team.

McNamee traveled to Tampa at Pettitte's request and spent about ten days assisting Pettitte with his rehabilitation. McNamee recalled that he injected Pettitte with human growth hormone that McNamee obtained from Radomski on two to four occasions. Pettitte paid McNamee for the trip and his expenses; there was no separate payment for the human growth hormone.

Chuck Knoblauch

Chuck Knoblauch played as an infielder for three teams in Major League Baseba from 1991 to 2002, the Minnesota Twins (7 seasons), New York Yankees (4 seasons), and Kansas City Royals (1 season). He was the 1991 American League Rookie of the Year and played on four All-Star teams.

Knoblauch played for the Yankees during 2000 and 2001, the two years when McNamee served as the Yankees' assistant strength coach. McNamee provided personal training services to Knoblauch.

McNamee said that he acquired human growth hormone from Radomski for Knoblauch in 2001. Beginning during spring training and continuing through the early portion of the season, McNamee injected Knoblauch at least seven to nine times with human growth hormone.

Mike Stanton

Radomski met Stanton around 2001 while he was pitching for the Yankees. Radomski recalled making two sales of human growth hormone to Stanton. The first occurred in2003, during Stanton's first season with the Mets. Early in that season, Radomski mailed two kits of human growth hormone to Stanton at his residence. Stanton paid Radomski $3,200 by money order.

[JoltinJoe]

If you read Game of Shadows, you would conclude that although steroids existed in baseball prior to 1998, it was the McGuire/Sosa breakout that year which really placed the idea in many players' heads to try steroids -- most notably, Barry Bonds who was angry that his reputation as the game's premier player had been overshadowed by what he considered two marginal talents. Bonds started steroid use in the off-season of 1998, and reported with about 25 pounds of more muscle for Spring training in 1999. Other players noticed Bonds' unusual muscle growth, and quickly concluded what he had done.

June 1998 was a big month for Sosa. Up to that point of his career, he was a decent enough ballplayer largely considered an underachiever. But he hit 20 homers during the month of June with 47 RBI, and then hit 60 each season from 1998 through 2001.

Keep all this in mind when you assess the 1998 Yankees. Here is the boxscore for David Wells' perfect game in May 1998. On this Yankee team, you have no sudden, mid-career offensive explosions; no players who broke down prematurely with quirkly wrist, knee or tendon injuries; no players who mysteriously became more productive as he aged.

The '98 Yanks should be honored for baseball fans because they were a great TEAM, with solid ballplayers who went about their jobs but with no HOFers, except Derek Jeter and perhaps Bernie Williams. Next year, the Yanks traded David Wells for Roger Clemens, and even this great team started to drift into the taint of the era (although the Mitchell Report specifically concludes Clemens was off PED in 1999, and didn't start again until 2000, when he arranged for the Yankees to hire Brian McNamee.

Other than Knoblauch, later implicated, who on this 1998 list do you suspect and tell me why.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/boxscore/05171998.shtml

[JMU DJ]

Any validity to Garciaparra's statements? Think players will start using the "I held out because I wanted testing, that's why my name is in the report." line?

Garciaparra seemed to question the list itself, or at least its validity, now that the promise of anonymity given to the players in 2003 has been so thoroughly shattered by one leak after another.

“What’s the truth in something like that (New York Times allegation)?” he said. “It’s unfair to judge him until we know the circumstances. Before we cast somebody in a certain way, we need to have the facts.

“The testing was supposed to be anonymous. It was supposed to be just a number (not a name). Literally there were guys who weren’t going to take it and just said, ‘Put me on the list,’ because they wanted testing and we needed to get a certain number of positive tests (more than 5 percent) to do it.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/base ... ion=recent

[clenz]

Any validity to Garciaparra's statements? Think players will start using the "I held out because I wanted testing, that's why my name is in the report." line?

Garciaparra seemed to question the list itself, or at least its validity, now that the promise of anonymity given to the players in 2003 has been so thoroughly shattered by one leak after another.

“What’s the truth in something like that (New York Times allegation)?” he said. “It’s unfair to judge him until we know the circumstances. Before we cast somebody in a certain way, we need to have the facts.

“The testing was supposed to be anonymous. It was supposed to be just a number (not a name). Literally there were guys who weren’t going to take it and just said, ‘Put me on the list,’ because they wanted testing and we needed to get a certain number of positive tests (more than 5 percent) to do it.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/base ... ion=recent

Ortiz seems shocked he was on the list, so I think that needs to be taken into consideration. I could be wrong but Papi hasn't ever really lied about anything. He doesn't even know what he tested postitive for, last I saw the news. I'll wait for his statement.

[bandl]

I have.

Then explain how PED use which starts after 2001 can be said to taint tiles won in 1998 or 1999? These are the player excerpts from the Mitchell Report for Pettitte, Knoblauch, and Stanton. It is clear Pettitte tried HGH to rehab from an injury in 2002; Knoblauch, a fading platoon player by 2000, tried it to resurrect his career starting in 2001; and Stanton started in 2003 as a Met.

Andy Pettitte

Andy Pettitte is a pitcher who since 1995 has played with two teams in Major League Baseball, the New York Yankees (10 seasons) and the Houston Astros (3 seasons). He has been named to the All-Star team twice and was Most Valuable Player in the 2001 American League Championship Series.

McNamee began serving as Pettitte's personal trainer and started assisting Pettitte in off-season workouts after the 1999 season. According to McNamee, during the 2001-02 offseason, Pettitte asked him about human growth hormone. McNamee said that he discouraged Pettitte from using human growth hormone at that time.

From April 21 to June 14, 2002, Pettitte was on the disabled list with elbow tendonitis.395 McNamee said that Pettitte called him while Pettitte was rehabilitating his elbow in Tampa, where the Yankees have a facility, and asked again about human growth hormone. Pettitte stated that he wanted to speed his recovery and help his team.

McNamee traveled to Tampa at Pettitte's request and spent about ten days assisting Pettitte with his rehabilitation. McNamee recalled that he injected Pettitte with human growth hormone that McNamee obtained from Radomski on two to four occasions. Pettitte paid McNamee for the trip and his expenses; there was no separate payment for the human growth hormone.

Chuck Knoblauch

Chuck Knoblauch played as an infielder for three teams in Major League Baseba from 1991 to 2002, the Minnesota Twins (7 seasons), New York Yankees (4 seasons), and Kansas City Royals (1 season). He was the 1991 American League Rookie of the Year and played on four All-Star teams.

Knoblauch played for the Yankees during 2000 and 2001, the two years when McNamee served as the Yankees' assistant strength coach. McNamee provided personal training services to Knoblauch.

McNamee said that he acquired human growth hormone from Radomski for Knoblauch in 2001. Beginning during spring training and continuing through the early portion of the season, McNamee injected Knoblauch at least seven to nine times with human growth hormone.

Mike Stanton

Radomski met Stanton around 2001 while he was pitching for the Yankees. Radomski recalled making two sales of human growth hormone to Stanton. The first occurred in2003, during Stanton's first season with the Mets. Early in that season, Radomski mailed two kits of human growth hormone to Stanton at his residence. Stanton paid Radomski $3,200 by money order.

Once again JJ, just because they weren't caught until (insert year here) doesn't mean they didn't do it before that (insert year here). Why would any player admit to doing something they may have done prior to testing if they don't get caught? Did Arod? Pettitte? Sosa? Palmiero? Ortiz? Ramirez? You need to remove your lawyer cap and quit twisting and manipulating all the lies and deceipt into truths. Every MLB team was guilty of having players that used HGH or Steroids. Your cherished Yankees are no exception.

[JoltinJoe]

Then explain how PED use which starts after 2001 can be said to taint tiles won in 1998 or 1999? These are the player excerpts from the Mitchell Report for Pettitte, Knoblauch, and Stanton. It is clear Pettitte tried HGH to rehab from an injury in 2002; Knoblauch, a fading platoon player by 2000, tried it to resurrect his career starting in 2001; and Stanton started in 2003 as a Met.

Andy Pettitte

Andy Pettitte is a pitcher who since 1995 has played with two teams in Major League Baseball, the New York Yankees (10 seasons) and the Houston Astros (3 seasons). He has been named to the All-Star team twice and was Most Valuable Player in the 2001 American League Championship Series.

McNamee began serving as Pettitte's personal trainer and started assisting Pettitte in off-season workouts after the 1999 season. According to McNamee, during the 2001-02 offseason, Pettitte asked him about human growth hormone. McNamee said that he discouraged Pettitte from using human growth hormone at that time.

From April 21 to June 14, 2002, Pettitte was on the disabled list with elbow tendonitis.395 McNamee said that Pettitte called him while Pettitte was rehabilitating his elbow in Tampa, where the Yankees have a facility, and asked again about human growth hormone. Pettitte stated that he wanted to speed his recovery and help his team.

McNamee traveled to Tampa at Pettitte's request and spent about ten days assisting Pettitte with his rehabilitation. McNamee recalled that he injected Pettitte with human growth hormone that McNamee obtained from Radomski on two to four occasions. Pettitte paid McNamee for the trip and his expenses; there was no separate payment for the human growth hormone.

Chuck Knoblauch

Chuck Knoblauch played as an infielder for three teams in Major League Baseba from 1991 to 2002, the Minnesota Twins (7 seasons), New York Yankees (4 seasons), and Kansas City Royals (1 season). He was the 1991 American League Rookie of the Year and played on four All-Star teams.

Knoblauch played for the Yankees during 2000 and 2001, the two years when McNamee served as the Yankees' assistant strength coach. McNamee provided personal training services to Knoblauch.

McNamee said that he acquired human growth hormone from Radomski for Knoblauch in 2001. Beginning during spring training and continuing through the early portion of the season, McNamee injected Knoblauch at least seven to nine times with human growth hormone.

Mike Stanton

Radomski met Stanton around 2001 while he was pitching for the Yankees. Radomski recalled making two sales of human growth hormone to Stanton. The first occurred in2003, during Stanton's first season with the Mets. Early in that season, Radomski mailed two kits of human growth hormone to Stanton at his residence. Stanton paid Radomski $3,200 by money order.

Once again JJ, just because they weren't caught until (insert year here) doesn't mean they didn't do it before that (insert year here). Why would any player admit to doing something they may have done prior to testing if they don't get caught? Did Arod? Pettitte? Sosa? Palmiero? Ortiz? Ramirez? You need to remove your lawyer cap and quit twisting and manipulating all the lies and deceipt into truths. Every MLB team was guilty of having players that used HGH or Steroids. Your cherished Yankees are no exception.

Maybe true, but on the other hand that is not evidence of anything. Again:

Other than Knoblauch, later implicated for use starting in 2001, who on this 1998 list do you suspect and tell me why.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/boxscore/05171998.shtml

Again, I note on this Yankee team, you have no sudden, mid-career offensive explosions; no players who broke down prematurely with quirky wrist, knee or tendon injuries; no players who mysteriously became more productive as he aged.

[dbackjon]

So Roger Maris was juiced?

[JoltinJoe]

So Roger Maris was juiced?

Yes, on liquor.

[JMU DJ]

So Roger Maris was juiced?

You didn't know they were all taking greenies back then? Geeze, get with the times homie

[dbackjon]

So Roger Maris was juiced?

Yes, on liquor.

So liquor can cause 1 year spikes?

[dbackjon]

So Roger Maris was juiced?

You didn't know they were all taking greenies back then? Geeze, get with the times homie

You mean Joltin Joe was not clean??

[SunCoastBlueHen]

You mean Joltin Joe was not clean??

He WAS hanging out with Marilyn - she had all the good stuff.

[clenz]

Yes, on liquor.

So liquor can cause 1 year spikes?

Yes, if you are drunk for every game of your career, then take a year off, there is no way your performance wouldn't go up...


unless you are David Wells

[JMU DJ]

So liquor can cause 1 year spikes?

Yes, if you are drunk for every game of your career, then take a year off, there is no way your performance wouldn't go up...


unless you are David Wells

Or John Daly... but I'm convinced he's on Acid now.

[JoltinJoe]

Yes, on liquor.

So liquor can cause 1 year spikes?

But being a fastball hitter being protected in the lineup by one baseball's best-ever players (and best ever "peak value" player ever, according to Bill James) might ...

[clenz]

Yes, if you are drunk for every game of your career, then take a year off, there is no way your performance wouldn't go up...


unless you are David Wells

Or John Daly... but I'm convinced he's on Acid now.

I can't help but laugh at him.

I do, however, have a driver of his..well not his but his style...and it is pretty nice

[clenz]

Take this for what it's worth to you I guess but...

I was listening to sports talk radio tonight, like I do all day long, and Rob Dibble was on one of the shows talking about the latest roids stuff. He said the fact that the media is making this sound like it didn't start until the late 90's is one of the dumbest things ever. Dibble knows his shit mind you. He said that starting in the mid-to late 70's the juicing was starting. In fact he knows players asked trainers for advice, the trainers asked the owners and managers what to advice their players and the reply from them was "make sure they get the good stuff".

So really, no era since probably the early 70's has ever been clean. Dibble said that every team had at least 5-8 players on the team that were on roids, the difference between then and now is that back then they didn't know how to use them like they do now. He also said that roids won't help a player at all unless they are already good, otherwise it will just make them look roided out.


Moral of the story, baseball has been dirty since the 70's, not the 90's.