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OK, so as I go through the baseball season in Iowa (baseball is a summer sport in Iowa) I will come across things as an ump I will find interesting. I'll make the call according to the rules and have the coaches and fans yell at me that I was wrong, when I wasn't. Tonight was one of those situations. I was the field up and had to make this call on the fly. Thankfully, as the injured player was being attended too I consulted my rule book, and my partner, and made the correct call from the start.

As I come across these situations I'll post them, and maybe some case examples to see how well the people here know the baseball rules.


Batting team will be represented by Team B
Fielding team will be represented by Team F


OK, here we go


Team B has the bases loaded with 0 outs, down by 5 in the bottom of the 5th (7 inning games in high school). The batter hits a 3 bouncer to the third baseman. The third baseman steps on third to record the first out (no chance to get the guy at home from what I could tell as he was semi-stealing). After stepping on third the third baseman throws the ball to first. Team F's first baseman is pulled off of first about 2 steps by the throw. The first baseman turns and heads back to the base, but is about a half a step slower than the runner getting there. The runner from Team B and the fielder from Team F collide. During the collision the fielder falls on his glove, with the ball in it, and the runner falls on the back of the fielder.

The runner that was on first advances to third while the runner and fielder on the ground. The runner that was involved in the collision at first gets up and runs to second. The first baseman stays down in great pain, and eventually the pitcher runs over the pick the baseball out of the first baseman's mitt, and the play ends.


What is the proper call in this case?

I'll leave this poll open for 2 days. After that time I will go ahead and give the correct answer.

Where did they collide? After the runner reached the base? Behind the bag? Fair or foul ground?

GannonFan wrote:Where did they collide? After the runner reached the base? Behind the bag? Fair or foul ground?

They hit each other basically right on first base. The runner used the proper orange bag (I think most states high school uses the double first base system) and the fielder stepped on the white bag. It was one of those things both were big kids (not fat, but about 6'2 220-240ish...I know for a fact that both are all district/all state linebackers/defensive ends for their football teams).

It was, more or less, unavoidable in this case and accidental.

Long story short, runner was in the running lane, fielder was in fielding position but momentum of both carried them into each other.

I don't see how the batter/runner would be called out, since it sounds like he was in the running lane at the time of the collision.

Though I don't know if there is some sort of "dead ball" rule that comes into play with an injury or something. (still wouldn't result in an out, but could prevent further advancement of runners)

JayJ79 wrote:I don't see how the batter/runner would be called out, since it sounds like he was in the running lane at the time of the collision.

Though I don't know if there is some sort of "dead ball" rule that comes into play with an injury or something. (still wouldn't result in an out, but could prevent further advancement of runners)

That's one of the things that makes this interesting.

It was really shocking to see it happen about 7 feet in front of me. I didn't even realize I made call (verbal and signal wise) until the play was over and I had a conference with the other ump I was working with and the coaches to discuss the situation. Apparently I made the call instantly. I was shocked with myself after that. It was my first game of the season so I was hoping something like this wouldn't happen, and I could get a nice game to "work myself" into the umping "mode".


In case you are wondering, and again something I realized but it isn't something you notice as much from the stands as you do on the field. I coach middle school baseball, and ump in a league around the Cedar Valley that is mostly 6th-8th graders. The speed and skill difference is obvious watching from the stands, but the difference is even bigger than you would think once it comes to umping it.

Took me an inning or so to get used to it again.

Dunno if your league has the same rules as the state high school association, but I found this document that might be relevent in this discussion:
http://www.iahsaa.org/officials/2010%20 ... 20Game.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is a section on "malicious contact" at the bottom of page 1, onto page 2.
here is an excerpt:

INCIDENTAL CONTACT vs MALICIOUS CONTACT
A) Not all collisions are malicious
B) A violent collision is not automatically considered malicious
C) Umpires shall rule on player’s intent:
1. Contact is result of intentional excessive force, or,
2. Contact is a result of intent to injure
D) Runners should be instructed to help eliminate the question of malicious or incidental contact by:
1. Sliding legally, and
2. Attempting to avoid making contact with defensive player

So I guess the runner could be called out/ejected, if it was intentional or excessive. Not having seen the play, I can't really make that judgement

I got a train wreck (and a funeral for the dead ball)...

Hard to make a call here without seeing the play. However, with the info that is given only, I see only one viable answer. There isn't any information given that would label contact anything other than "incidental", so that would rule out malicious or intentional contact. Additionally, there is no info given that the runner was out of a baseline, so there isn't anything written to suggest otherwise. There is only one option where the runner is called safe so that's what I voted for by process of elimination. If there is any reason the runner is going to be declared out, I don't see that evidence in the summary given.

JayJ79 wrote:Dunno if your league has the same rules as the state high school association, but I found this document that might be relevent in this discussion:
http://www.iahsaa.org/officials/2010%20 ... 20Game.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is a section on "malicious contact" at the bottom of page 1, onto page 2.
here is an excerpt:

INCIDENTAL CONTACT vs MALICIOUS CONTACT
A) Not all collisions are malicious
B) A violent collision is not automatically considered malicious
C) Umpires shall rule on player’s intent:
1. Contact is result of intentional excessive force, or,
2. Contact is a result of intent to injure
D) Runners should be instructed to help eliminate the question of malicious or incidental contact by:
1. Sliding legally, and
2. Attempting to avoid making contact with defensive player

So I guess the runner could be called out/ejected, if it was intentional or excessive. Not having seen the play, I can't really make that judgement

It was an IAHSAA game last night between Dike-New Hartford and West Marshall. That won't make sense to anyone but Jay in this thread but it helps him understand the governing situation some.


All high schools and middle schools in the state of Iowa are run by the National Federation of High Schools. I'm pretty sure all 50 states, plus DC, run under the NFHS rules.

clenz wrote:

GannonFan wrote:Where did they collide? After the runner reached the base? Behind the bag? Fair or foul ground?

They hit each other basically right on first base. The runner used the proper orange bag (I think most states high school uses the double first base system) and the fielder stepped on the white bag. It was one of those things both were big kids (not fat, but about 6'2 220-240ish...I know for a fact that both are all district/all state linebackers/defensive ends for their football teams).

It was, more or less, unavoidable in this case and accidental.

Long story short, runner was in the running lane, fielder was in fielding position but momentum of both carried them into each other.

Based on your original summation, I went with E. But having seen this addendum, E no longer makes sense. I'm more inclined to agree with the 71% of the others.

BTW, I was expecting some complication of the Infield Fly Rule, which of course with no outs would not have applied. Much confusion, especially for untrained fans, derives from that rule.

clenz wrote:

GannonFan wrote:Where did they collide? After the runner reached the base? Behind the bag? Fair or foul ground?

They hit each other basically right on first base. The runner used the proper orange bag (I think most states high school uses the double first base system) and the fielder stepped on the white bag. It was one of those things both were big kids (not fat, but about 6'2 220-240ish...I know for a fact that both are all district/all state linebackers/defensive ends for their football teams).

It was, more or less, unavoidable in this case and accidental.

Long story short, runner was in the running lane, fielder was in fielding position but momentum of both carried them into each other.

You know, I don't think I've ever seen a high school game with the double first base system - I've seen it done in t-ball around here, but any level above that in my area (PA/DE/NJ/MD) just uses a single base at first from coach pitch on up.

GannonFan wrote: You know, I don't think I've ever seen a high school game with the double first base system - I've seen it done in t-ball around here, but any level above that in my area (PA/DE/NJ/MD) just uses a single base at first from coach pitch on up.

Of course, I'm in the same area but I've rarely ever seen it either. I remember seeing a Little League age game where they had it, & i thought it was the wierdest thing I ever saw. But 99% of the youth games I've seen & up in age level it'd the normal base setup.

GannonFan wrote:

clenz wrote: They hit each other basically right on first base. The runner used the proper orange bag (I think most states high school uses the double first base system) and the fielder stepped on the white bag. It was one of those things both were big kids (not fat, but about 6'2 220-240ish...I know for a fact that both are all district/all state linebackers/defensive ends for their football teams).

It was, more or less, unavoidable in this case and accidental.

Long story short, runner was in the running lane, fielder was in fielding position but momentum of both carried them into each other.

You know, I don't think I've ever seen a high school game with the double first base system - I've seen it done in t-ball around here, but any level above that in my area (PA/DE/NJ/MD) just uses a single base at first from coach pitch on up.

I think Iowa went to it 10-15 years ago, maybe more, to help try and avoid things like this. It may just be an Iowa thing that the Iowa High School Athletic Association put in. I know each state can have their own set of rules, as long as it doesn't counter one of the NFHS rules, and I don't think there is a double first base standard by the NFSH.

SuperHornet wrote:

clenz wrote: They hit each other basically right on first base. The runner used the proper orange bag (I think most states high school uses the double first base system) and the fielder stepped on the white bag. It was one of those things both were big kids (not fat, but about 6'2 220-240ish...I know for a fact that both are all district/all state linebackers/defensive ends for their football teams).

It was, more or less, unavoidable in this case and accidental.

Long story short, runner was in the running lane, fielder was in fielding position but momentum of both carried them into each other.

Based on your original summation, I went with E. But having seen this addendum, E no longer makes sense. I'm more inclined to agree with the 71% of the others.

BTW, I was expecting some complication of the Infield Fly Rule, which of course with no outs would not have applied. Much confusion, especially for untrained fans, derives from that rule.

Wait - what? Infield fly rule applies with less than 2 outs and runners on 1st and 2nd or 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. It doesn't apply here because it was a ground ball...

bluehenbillk wrote:

GannonFan wrote: You know, I don't think I've ever seen a high school game with the double first base system - I've seen it done in t-ball around here, but any level above that in my area (PA/DE/NJ/MD) just uses a single base at first from coach pitch on up.

Of course, I'm in the same area but I've rarely ever seen it either. I remember seeing a Little League age game where they had it, & i thought it was the wierdest thing I ever saw. But 99% of the youth games I've seen & up in age level it'd the normal base setup.

at a game the other night the kids got to pay on the bigger field because the 8-9 year olds had no games that night... they had the double base at first and I was like what the hell is that...lol on the smaller field where they normally play its just the regular single base.

Rob Iola wrote:

SuperHornet wrote:
Based on your original summation, I went with E. But having seen this addendum, E no longer makes sense. I'm more inclined to agree with the 71% of the others.

BTW, I was expecting some complication of the Infield Fly Rule, which of course with no outs would not have applied. Much confusion, especially for untrained fans, derives from that rule.

Wait - what? Infield fly rule applies with less than 2 outs and runners on 1st and 2nd or 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. It doesn't apply here because it was a ground ball...

I noticed that too, but just let it slide.

The answer is "B".

I hope you made the right damn call on this one Clenz.

Dammit.

GannonFan wrote:You know, I don't think I've ever seen a high school game with the double first base system - I've seen it done in t-ball around here, but any level above that in my area (PA/DE/NJ/MD) just uses a single base at first from coach pitch on up.

A newspaper article that discusses the double first base concept to some extent:
SOME LEAGUES DOUBLE-BAG FIRST BASE TO AVOID INJURIES.

Double first bases have caught on in the Midwest, but they're not used much on either coast, said Larry Brushett, general manager of Hollywood Bases Inc. The Marysville, Calif., company makes bases for everyone from the major leagues on down.

"Why doesn't everybody use them? That's a question only baseball traditionalists can answer," Brushett said.

The inside of the two connected bags is white for the fielder to tag. The outside bag is orange for the runner.

On extra-base hits or fly balls, the runner can touch the inside bag and keep going, at least under Iowa rules.

The only other exception is for a dropped third strike, Barr said. Then the first baseman covers the orange base in foul territory and the runner goes for the white base to stay away from the throw.

"I would say it's cut down immensely on accidents," said the umpire and sporting goods salesman from Storm Lake, Iowa Storm Lake is a city in Buena Vista County, Iowa, United States. The population was 10,076 at the 2000 census. It is the county seat of Buena Vista CountyGR6. Storm Lake is home to Buena Vista University, originally Buena Vista College.
..... Click the link for more information..

"We had some nasty collisions, and this is an idea that we decided to try several years ago," said Rick Wulkow of the Iowa High School Athletic Association. "It hasn't had any effect on our game at all, otherwise."

JayJ79 wrote:

GannonFan wrote:You know, I don't think I've ever seen a high school game with the double first base system - I've seen it done in t-ball around here, but any level above that in my area (PA/DE/NJ/MD) just uses a single base at first from coach pitch on up.

A newspaper article that discusses the double first base concept to some extent:
SOME LEAGUES DOUBLE-BAG FIRST BASE TO AVOID INJURIES.

Double first bases have caught on in the Midwest, but they're not used much on either coast, said Larry Brushett, general manager of Hollywood Bases Inc. The Marysville, Calif., company makes bases for everyone from the major leagues on down.

"Why doesn't everybody use them? That's a question only baseball traditionalists can answer," Brushett said.

The inside of the two connected bags is white for the fielder to tag. The outside bag is orange for the runner.

On extra-base hits or fly balls, the runner can touch the inside bag and keep going, at least under Iowa rules.

The only other exception is for a dropped third strike, Barr said. Then the first baseman covers the orange base in foul territory and the runner goes for the white base to stay away from the throw.

"I would say it's cut down immensely on accidents," said the umpire and sporting goods salesman from Storm Lake, Iowa Storm Lake is a city in Buena Vista County, Iowa, United States. The population was 10,076 at the 2000 census. It is the county seat of Buena Vista CountyGR6. Storm Lake is home to Buena Vista University, originally Buena Vista College.
..... Click the link for more information..

"We had some nasty collisions, and this is an idea that we decided to try several years ago," said Rick Wulkow of the Iowa High School Athletic Association. "It hasn't had any effect on our game at all, otherwise."

You know, I've watched and played and coached baseball for a good 40 years now - in that time, I've only seen actual collisions (not just contact, real honest to goodness collisions) at first maybe something like 10-15 times. It just seems like a solution to something that wasn't much of a problem. I'd rather people ban aluminum bats - that would seem to have a bigger safety impact at some levels.

There's big controversy in NorCal over metal bats since a kid was seriously hurt earlier this year. His league unilaterally banned the bogus things, but CIF isn't on board. I've ALWAYS hated metal bats and use wood even for slow pitch softball. It's not a big difference for me since I'm generally a singles hitter anyway, but I have no desire to hurt a pitcher in that fashion. I'd MUCH rather hurt him with a bat-around inning....

SuperHornet wrote:There's big controversy in NorCal over metal bats since a kid was seriously hurt earlier this year. His league unilaterally banned the bogus things, but CIF isn't on board. I've ALWAYS hated metal bats and use wood even for slow pitch softball. It's not a big difference for me since I'm generally a singles hitter anyway, but I have no desire to hurt a pitcher in that fashion. I'd MUCH rather hurt him with a bat-around inning....

I was involved in some discussions with the NFHS with whether or not to move to wood bats instead of metal bats. The NFHS is moving to a different set up of bat in 2012, supposedly the ball leaves the bat at a slower speed (BBCOR certification as opposed to the current BESR certification). However, the NFHS is doing some surveys, interviews, etc... at looking to moving to wood bats in 2013, and forgoing the BBCOR rule, or moving to wood bats around 2016

Option B was correct.


The three that voted for F...well...no

clenz wrote:Option B was correct.


The three that voted for F...well...no

Thanks Clenz! I'm curious though, you said you had the call right from the start - what were your mechanics, since you essentially had calls at 1st, 2nd, and 3rd (twice - 1 runner out and 1 safe)?

Rob Iola wrote:

clenz wrote:Option B was correct.


The three that voted for F...well...no

Thanks Clenz! I'm curious though, you said you had the call right from the start - what were your mechanics, since you essentially had calls at 1st, 2nd, and 3rd (twice - 1 runner out and 1 safe)?

We only use a two man crew, for tournaments on Saturdays we use three man crews. So to start the play, since the bases were loaded I was behind the mound shaded the third base side.

There are a couple of ways to handle this, depending what you and your partner decide and are comfortable with. My partner and I decided that I will take the first throw (unless it is at home then I head towards first), and anything on the back side he covers (if it were to be at third again, and I would circle back towards home as there wouldn't be a play at first again unless it was a pickle.

The ball was hit hard enough, and close enough to third that the kid stepped on three and as soon as he stepped on three and made the movement to throw to first I turned and sprinted to get as close to first as I could, but stopped before the ball got there so I could set myself to make the call. The throw pulled the kid off of first, which caused the run in. At that point, my partner (who was working the plate) was standing halfway between third and home in case their was another play at third.

Once I declared the runner safe at first I couldn't declare the play over or "dead" because there was still runner movement as the first baseman had the ball and runners were still moving, so I did the "Delayed Dead Ball" signal and took off towards second with the batter/runner just in case there was a play. Interference/obstruction may have warranted an immediate dead ball, depending on the situation but this didn't warrant that.

Once the runners got safely to second and third, the third base coach of the batting team did the "right" thing and held his runners so that the pitcher could get to the ball and get it picked up and get back towards the mound to "end the play".


I'll attach a quick MS Paint mock up of what happened so it is easier to understand. My path is marked out and numbered to show my path. The purple is the injured kid, my partner had one path so that is easy to understand, and the white path is the path of the ball.

Thanks for the explanation and image Clenz! I'm kind of a nerd for ump recaps on funky baseball plays, especially when they involve trainwrecks...