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The AL saves leader goes to the Yankees, 3 years, $35M, to become the set-up man (and heir apparent) for Mariano Rivera.

Hard to imagine a better bullpen than this. This is simply the best lock-down bullpen in the game.

JoltinJoe wrote:The AL saves leader goes to the Yankees, 3 years, $35M, to become the set-up man (and heir apparent) for Mariano Rivera.

Hard to imagine a better bullpen than this. This is simply the best lock-down bullpen in the game.

Also hard to imagine another team outbidding the yanks. Nothing new here.

JoltinJoe wrote:Hard to imagine a more expensive bullpen than this. This is simply the best lock-down bullpen in the game.

fify

Grizalltheway wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:The AL saves leader goes to the Yankees, 3 years, $35M, to become the set-up man (and heir apparent) for Mariano Rivera.

Hard to imagine a better bullpen than this. This is simply the best lock-down bullpen in the game.

Also hard to imagine another team outbidding the yanks. Nothing new here.

Of course other teams could have signed Soriano but didn't. The Sox offered Rivera the same terms as the Yankees. I expected, for this reason, that Soriano was ultimately going to join the Sox. Instead, the Sox went out and signed a number of decent, but not great relievers. The Phillies, too, spent all the money on Cliff Lee, while ignoring their shaky bullpen, much the way the Braves did in the late 90s.

The addition of Soriano is significant, because it makes the Yankees the favorites in any close game which gets pushed into the bullpens. That's huge the way baseball, particularly post-season baseball, is played today.

JoltinJoe wrote:The AL saves leader goes to the Yankees, 3 years, $35M, to become the set-up man (and heir apparent) for Mariano Rivera.

Hard to imagine a better bullpen than this. This is simply the best lock-down bullpen in the game.

Just need to lay newspaper out on the entire field at Yankee Stadium, because it looks like the Yankees are going to be the best team on paper this year..................

Good pickup for the Yankees.

So they are going to pay a non-closing bullpen pitcher over 10 million a year?

clenz wrote:So they are going to pay a non-closing bullpen pitcher over 10 million a year?

Seems like it...but it's also an investment into their possible future closer.

JoltinJoe wrote:The AL saves leader goes to the Yankees, 3 years, $35M, to become the set-up man (and heir apparent) for Mariano Rivera.

Hard to imagine a better bullpen than this. This is simply the best lock-down bullpen in the game.

And your starters (after C.C.) still suck!

JoltinJoe wrote:The AL saves leader goes to the Yankees, 3 years, $35M, to become the set-up man (and heir apparent) for Mariano Rivera.

Hard to imagine a better bullpen than this. This is simply the best lock-down bullpen in the game.

Yankee fans trying to get over the fact that the best pitching rotation in a generation recently got together about 100 miles to the south.

Best bullpen on paper, but Sori is a closer, and may not transition well into a non-closer role. Bullpen guys are fickle like that.

On paper tho, it's a loaded pen. But as is typical with the Yankees, they never get their money's worth, even when they're playing well.

We'll see how it plays out. Gonna be a tough year for the Rays, in all likelyhood.

bluehenbillk wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:The AL saves leader goes to the Yankees, 3 years, $35M, to become the set-up man (and heir apparent) for Mariano Rivera.

Hard to imagine a better bullpen than this. This is simply the best lock-down bullpen in the game.

Yankee fans trying to get over the fact that the best pitching rotation in a generation recently got together about 100 miles to the south.

Has it been a generation since the Atlanta Braves had Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, et al.?

Then again, the Braves ignored their bullpen and wound up winning just one World Series with that crew.

He who ignores the past is doomed to repeat it.

JoltinJoe wrote:

bluehenbillk wrote:
Yankee fans trying to get over the fact that the best pitching rotation in a generation recently got together about 100 miles to the south.

Has it been a generation since the Atlanta Braves had Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, et al.?

Then again, the Braves ignored their bullpen and wound up winning just one World Series with that crew.

He who ignores the past is doomed to repeat it.

Apples to oranges. The Braves had a great regular season rotation, maybe even better than what the Phils will have this year. But Smoltz was the only guy you could count on to really step it up in the postseason and be a real shutdown pitcher. The Phils have Lee and Hamels (Lee's perhaps the best postseason pitcher in the game today and Hamels has already won a WS MVP for his postseason work) and then Halladay (no hitter in the playoffs in a short sample) and Oswalt. All are strikeout pitchers, which helps a lot come playoff time. As great as Maddux and Glavine were, they weren't guys you really feared in a short series, and the results (both have losing postseason records) bears that out.

Luckily, the Phillies have not repeated the things that doomed the Braves.

GannonFan wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:
Has it been a generation since the Atlanta Braves had Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, et al.?

Then again, the Braves ignored their bullpen and wound up winning just one World Series with that crew.

He who ignores the past is doomed to repeat it.

Apples to oranges. The Braves had a great regular season rotation, maybe even better than what the Phils will have this year. But Smoltz was the only guy you could count on to really step it up in the postseason and be a real shutdown pitcher. The Phils have Lee and Hamels (Lee's perhaps the best postseason pitcher in the game today and Hamels has already won a WS MVP for his postseason work) and then Halladay (no hitter in the playoffs in a short sample) and Oswalt. All are strikeout pitchers, which helps a lot come playoff time. As great as Maddux and Glavine were, they weren't guys you really feared in a short series, and the results (both have losing postseason records) bears that out.

Luckily, the Phillies have not repeated the things that doomed the Braves.

The Phillies will not win the World Series this year because they don't have enough offense and have a suspect bullpen.

In fact, looking at the Phils, I'd say they are slightly below average offensively, and below average in the bullpen. I can't see this team even making the World Series.

JoltinJoe wrote:

GannonFan wrote:
Apples to oranges. The Braves had a great regular season rotation, maybe even better than what the Phils will have this year. But Smoltz was the only guy you could count on to really step it up in the postseason and be a real shutdown pitcher. The Phils have Lee and Hamels (Lee's perhaps the best postseason pitcher in the game today and Hamels has already won a WS MVP for his postseason work) and then Halladay (no hitter in the playoffs in a short sample) and Oswalt. All are strikeout pitchers, which helps a lot come playoff time. As great as Maddux and Glavine were, they weren't guys you really feared in a short series, and the results (both have losing postseason records) bears that out.

Luckily, the Phillies have not repeated the things that doomed the Braves.

The Phillies will not win the World Series this year because they don't have enough offense and have a suspect bullpen.

In fact, looking at the Phils, I'd say they are slightly below average offensively, and below average in the bullpen. I can't see this team even making the World Series.

Wow - big step for you - taking the field to win the World Series versus the Phils. Way to go out on a limb.

But hey, same can be said for the Yanks. Average offense, below average starting rotation - I can't see them winning the World Series. Heck, they might not even make the playoffs - how about that?

JoltinJoe wrote: The Phillies will not win the World Series this year because they don't have enough offense and have a suspect bullpen.

In fact, looking at the Phils, I'd say they are slightly below average offensively, and below average in the bullpen. I can't see this team even making the World Series.

So the Giants WON a WS last year with an offense that isn't as good as the Phillies offense. When you say you can't see the Phillies making the WS it's the penis-envy in you coming out. Besides with our rotation, do we need the strongest bullpen in the league??

GannonFan wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:
The Phillies will not win the World Series this year because they don't have enough offense and have a suspect bullpen.

In fact, looking at the Phils, I'd say they are slightly below average offensively, and below average in the bullpen. I can't see this team even making the World Series.

Wow - big step for you - taking the field to win the World Series versus the Phils. Way to go out on a limb.

But hey, same can be said for the Yanks. Average offense, below average starting rotation - I can't see them winning the World Series. Heck, they might not even make the playoffs - how about that?

They will win the World Series this year.

Average offense? Returning everyone from the team which led the majors in runs scored in 2010.

Solid defensively; possibly best bullpen in baseball.

Will start the season with a rotation of Sabathia, Hughes, Burnett, Nova, maybe moving Chamberlain from the bullpen; maybe Pettitte -- and a number of young prospects. Will see how that shakes out; may add a pitcher during the season depending on what you see.

Having openings actually will give the Yankees the chance to see if any of their young prospects are major league ready before deciding how to proceed with trades or acquisitions.

bluehenbillk wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote: The Phillies will not win the World Series this year because they don't have enough offense and have a suspect bullpen.

In fact, looking at the Phils, I'd say they are slightly below average offensively, and below average in the bullpen. I can't see this team even making the World Series.

So the Giants WON a WS last year with an offense that isn't as good as the Phillies offense. When you say you can't see the Phillies making the WS it's the penis-envy in you coming out. Besides with our rotation, do we need the strongest bullpen in the league??

You will in the post season. Ask Bobby Cox.

And the only guy in the Phillie line-up who a good pitcher might pitch around is Chase Utley. Losing Jayson Werth creates a huge void in the middle of the lineup, and leaves Ryan Howard unprotected. Not good for a mistake hitter prone to Ks.

JoltinJoe wrote:

bluehenbillk wrote:
So the Giants WON a WS last year with an offense that isn't as good as the Phillies offense. When you say you can't see the Phillies making the WS it's the penis-envy in you coming out. Besides with our rotation, do we need the strongest bullpen in the league??

You will in the post season. Ask Bobby Cox.

And the only guy in the Phillie line-up who a good pitcher might pitch around is Chase Utley. Losing Jayson Werth creates a huge void in the middle of the lineup, and leaves Ryan Howard unprotected. Not good for a mistake hitter prone to Ks.

Well, most people will tell you that with Werth there last year Howard was already unprotected. Still put up 30+ HR's and 100+ RBI's in a year without protection and battling injuries.

And again, we can ask Bobby Cox all we want to - doesn't change the fact that he had 1 great postseason starting pitcher and the Phils have 4 great postseason starting pitchers. He'd probably would've loved to trade the Phils rotation of today for his Braves rotation of yesteryear - always better to have postseason studs than regular season studs.

GannonFan wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:
You will in the post season. Ask Bobby Cox.

And the only guy in the Phillie line-up who a good pitcher might pitch around is Chase Utley. Losing Jayson Werth creates a huge void in the middle of the lineup, and leaves Ryan Howard unprotected. Not good for a mistake hitter prone to Ks.

Well, most people will tell you that with Werth there last year Howard was already unprotected. Still put up 30+ HR's and 100+ RBI's in a year without protection and battling injuries.

And again, we can ask Bobby Cox all we want to - doesn't change the fact that he had 1 great postseason starting pitcher and the Phils have 4 great postseason starting pitchers. He'd probably would've loved to trade the Phils rotation of today for his Braves rotation of yesteryear - always better to have postseason studs than regular season studs.

Werth had an OPS+ of 145 last year.

If you think Glavine and Maddux were not great post-season pitchers, you're out of your mind. Each had a career post-season ERA under 3.3. They were hurt in the post-seaon, wins and losses wise, because they usually were supported by offenses that were only slightly better than the one the Phillies currently have.

JoltinJoe wrote:

GannonFan wrote:
Well, most people will tell you that with Werth there last year Howard was already unprotected. Still put up 30+ HR's and 100+ RBI's in a year without protection and battling injuries.

And again, we can ask Bobby Cox all we want to - doesn't change the fact that he had 1 great postseason starting pitcher and the Phils have 4 great postseason starting pitchers. He'd probably would've loved to trade the Phils rotation of today for his Braves rotation of yesteryear - always better to have postseason studs than regular season studs.

Werth had an OPS+ of 145 last year.

If you think Glavine and Maddux were not great post-season pitchers, you're out of your mind. Each had a career post-season ERA under 3.3. They were hurt in the post-seaon, wins and losses wise, because they usually were supported by offenses that were only slightly better than the one the Phillies currently have.

Wait a minute - you're not implying that W's and L's are not the supreme indicator of a pitcher's performance, and that great pitchers shouldn't be measured by their ability to win games, regardless of the support they do or do not get behind them, are you? Who are you and what have you done with Joe????

JoltinJoe wrote:
Werth had an OPS+ of 145 last year.

So? Howard's got a career OPS+ of 140 and you've already dismissed him as a "mistake hitter prone to K's". I'm not going to miss the .139 BA with 2 outs and runners in scoring position. That gave Werth an sOPS+ of 89 in that category last year.

GannonFan wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:

Werth had an OPS+ of 145 last year.

If you think Glavine and Maddux were not great post-season pitchers, you're out of your mind. Each had a career post-season ERA under 3.3. They were hurt in the post-seaon, wins and losses wise, because they usually were supported by offenses that were only slightly better than the one the Phillies currently have.

Wait a minute - you're not implying that W's and L's are not the supreme indicator of a pitcher's performance, and that great pitchers shouldn't be measured by their ability to win games, regardless of the support they do or do not get behind them, are you? Who are you and what have you done with Joe????

What I said before is Ws are the most important factor in Cy Young voting.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought we were talking about something else here.

GannonFan wrote:

JoltinJoe wrote:
Werth had an OPS+ of 145 last year.

So? Howard's got a career OPS+ of 140 and you've already dismissed him as a "mistake hitter prone to K's". I'm not going to miss the .139 BA with 2 outs and runners in scoring position. That gave Werth an sOPS+ of 89 in that category last year.

Howard may have a career OPS+ over 140, but he is not the same hitter he was a few years ago, when he hit well over .300 and had nearly 60 dingers.

He's a .260-.270 guy now, and that was with Werth supporting him. Pitchers are getting Howard more and more to chase the pitcher's pitch.

JoltinJoe wrote:

GannonFan wrote:
Wait a minute - you're not implying that W's and L's are not the supreme indicator of a pitcher's performance, and that great pitchers shouldn't be measured by their ability to win games, regardless of the support they do or do not get behind them, are you? Who are you and what have you done with Joe????

What I said before is Ws are the most important factor in Cy Young voting.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought we were talking about something else here.

Now you're just covering your losses - sure, it was in the context of Cy Young voting that you talked about wins and the value to judging a pitcher, but you were very clear that a pitcher should be judged, Cy Young or not, by the ability for them to help their team win, whether they give up 0 runs or 10 - you were the Al Davis equivalent in that regard - "just wins baby". Now, since Glavine and Maddux both have losing records in the postseason, you are suddenly abandoning the idea that wins are the true measure of a pitcher's worth and are now falling back on things like run support and things like that. Trying to have your cake and eat it too apparently.

Nope, we're still talking about the same thing - you think the Phils are the 2011 version of the 90's Braves, while trying to prop up Maddux and Glavine as "great" post season pitchers, of course, with losing records. Maddux and Glavine were good post season pitchers, nothing more. Heck, Maddux's stats were much worse in the postseason than regular season and Glavine about the same. That's not "great" postseason pitchers. Look at Smoltz, Schilling, Lee, Halladay, et al - now those are truly "great" postseason pitchers. Heck, the Phils have two of them, and that's not even including WS MVP Hamels and Oswalt. Hmmm.