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Ugh. What has gone wrong in the sporting world ever since PEDs were first introduced? I believe no sport will ever be spared from this type of scandal...

I've never heard of a PED scandal in softball, volleyball, curling, or team handball....

Just sayin'....

Amazing...he never failed a test (over 500 taken) and the UNITED STATES doping agency is stripping him of titles he won in FRANCE?

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clenz wrote:Amazing...he never failed a test (over 500 taken) and the UNITED STATES doping agency is stripping him of titles he won in FRANCE?

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Agreed. I just don't see where they have jurisdiction.

clenz wrote:Amazing...he never failed a test (over 500 taken) and the UNITED STATES doping agency is stripping him of titles he won in FRANCE?

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Yup, total BS.

Really?

You guys are that naive?

In a sport full of cheaters, a clean guy dominated? cmon use your heads! Practically his whole team has come out & said he cheated.

As for the tests, how many tests did Barry Bonds fail? McGwire? Sosa? Clemens?, should I go on.

There have been 5 MLB players caught this year, do you think just 5 MLB players are cheating?

Do you think the NFL is basically clean because hardly no one gets caught?

Can I live in your dream world with unicorns & pixie dust?

Whatever lets the sheep sleep well at night. I'm sure the head of the USADA is clutching his favorite blankie with his thumb in his mouth so happy that the world is now a better place thanks to his efforts. Lance Armstrong is "no longer a 7-time Tour de France champion". Bravo good sir. When is the victory parade?

bluehenbillk wrote:Really?

You guys are that naive?

In a sport full of cheaters, a clean guy dominated? cmon use your heads! Practically his whole team has come out & said he cheated.

As for the tests, how many tests did Barry Bonds fail? McGwire? Sosa? Clemens?, should I go on.

There have been 5 MLB players caught this year, do you think just 5 MLB players are cheating?

Do you think the NFL is basically clean because hardly no one gets caught?

Can I live in your dream world with unicorns & pixie dust?

So what is the point of all this? If "everyone is doing it" then why the outrage over athletes using PEDs? Because John and Jane Doe from Topeka, Kansas wants little Jimmy to be able to have dreams of being a pro athlete without knowing about PEDs?

Eh, title of the thread is a bit misleading - even if the USADA hadn't taken this step, you would be hardpressed to read anything about Armstrong that didn't include the vast amount of suspiscion that always accompanyed him regarding whether he was clean or not.

As to whether he was clean or not, I think all of us assume that he probably was cheating. However, what did and continues to separate him from the Bonds and McGwires and countless Yankee players is that 1) he never admitted to using PED's and 2) no one ever proved that he took PED's. Unlike McGwire, he never confessed to using them. Unlike Bonds, there is no evidence, other than people saying he took them, to actually link him to their use. And that evidence of hearsay was so weak that the US govt refused to prosecute because they were unlikely to meet the burden of proof in a court of law. The USADA has a much lower burden of proof, which is actually none because under that system you are basically considered guilty until you prove yourself innocent. They got pissed when the evidence didn't hold up enough to take it to court, so they've taken this step.

I don't think Armstrong is/was clean, but at some point in time you need to actually have hard evidence or actual proof, IMO, if you're going to officially declare him a cheat and take away titles. Under this system, you might as well assume every athlete in every sport is doping - I mean, who's to say they're not?

DSUrocks07 wrote:

bluehenbillk wrote:Really?

You guys are that naive?

In a sport full of cheaters, a clean guy dominated? cmon use your heads! Practically his whole team has come out & said he cheated.

As for the tests, how many tests did Barry Bonds fail? McGwire? Sosa? Clemens?, should I go on.

There have been 5 MLB players caught this year, do you think just 5 MLB players are cheating?

Do you think the NFL is basically clean because hardly no one gets caught?

Can I live in your dream world with unicorns & pixie dust?

So what is the point of all this? If "everyone is doing it" then why the outrage over athletes using PEDs? Because John and Jane Doe from Topeka, Kansas wants little Jimmy to be able to have dreams of being a pro athlete without knowing about PEDs?

The point is....as much as many of us all wanted to believe it was true & live happily ever after, Lance wasn't clean. That doesn't necessarily make him a "bad person", what he's done with his Livestrong foundation is helping the fight against cancer, but it is what it is - he lied & he cheated......

GF is right here, of course, but there is STILL the question of jurisdiction. How the crap does the USADA have INTERNATIONAL power to remove titles?

GannonFan wrote:Eh, title of the thread is a bit misleading - even if the USADA hadn't taken this step, you would be hardpressed to read anything about Armstrong that didn't include the vast amount of suspiscion that always accompanyed him regarding whether he was clean or not.

Pretty much, in this age of "guilty until proven innocent", his legacy was tainted the moment of the very first accusation surfaced.

bluehenbillk wrote:

DSUrocks07 wrote:
So what is the point of all this? If "everyone is doing it" then why the outrage over athletes using PEDs? Because John and Jane Doe from Topeka, Kansas wants little Jimmy to be able to have dreams of being a pro athlete without knowing about PEDs?

The point is....as much as many of us all wanted to believe it was true & live happily ever after, Lance wasn't clean. That doesn't necessarily make him a "bad person", what he's done with his Livestrong foundation is helping the fight against cancer, but it is what it is - he lied & he cheated......

But he didn't steal tho...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDeP45YMNUY[/youtube]

SuperHornet wrote:GF is right here, of course, but there is STILL the question of jurisdiction. How the crap does the USADA have INTERNATIONAL power to remove titles?

The USADA doesn't have that power. Actually, both USA Cycling and the International Cycling Federation have stated that they don't recognize any jurisdiction by the USADA in this matter, and they would need to be the official sanctioning bodies that would remove titles. Both organizations have said they are waiting for the evidence to be presented by the USADA, and the USADA has said, in an omniously odd phrase, that they would release the evidence "at the right time".

You mean, when they have rigged what little evidence there is so that it presents their case in the most favorable light with little to no chance of anyone gainsaying it?

That could be just about never....

bluehenbillk wrote:

DSUrocks07 wrote:
So what is the point of all this? If "everyone is doing it" then why the outrage over athletes using PEDs? Because John and Jane Doe from Topeka, Kansas wants little Jimmy to be able to have dreams of being a pro athlete without knowing about PEDs?

The point is....as much as many of us all wanted to believe it was true & live happily ever after, Lance wasn't clean. That doesn't necessarily make him a "bad person", what he's done with his Livestrong foundation is helping the fight against cancer, but it is what it is - he lied & he cheated......

He probably did, but there's still that matter of actually proving he did. They couldn't prove it in court and the US Justice Department, after an extensive federal grand jury investigation, decided they couldn't prove it in court and dropped it. These are the same folks who went to the mat to nail Bonds so there's no reason to think they wouldn't do the same to Armstrong if there was evidence to go with. Again, it was the USADA that decided they'd run with that same evidence and just convict him in their own setting. And when the head of the World Anti-Doping Agency comes out with the quote of "He had the right to rip up those charges but elected not to. Therefore the only interpretation in these circumstances is that there was substance in those charges.", well, you have to question the integrity of an organization like that. Under that rationale, I can claim today that every athlete everywhere is doping and if they deny it then they are lying about it. See, I could work for the USADA now.

Ah. More governing bodies redefining their power and jurisdiction.

At any rate, Armstrong was a cheat and pretty much everyone who ever knew him closely has admitted as much.

Play with fire. Get burned.

GannonFan wrote:

bluehenbillk wrote:
The point is....as much as many of us all wanted to believe it was true & live happily ever after, Lance wasn't clean. That doesn't necessarily make him a "bad person", what he's done with his Livestrong foundation is helping the fight against cancer, but it is what it is - he lied & he cheated......

He probably did, but there's still that matter of actually proving he did. They couldn't prove it in court and the US Justice Department, after an extensive federal grand jury investigation, decided they couldn't prove it in court and dropped it. These are the same folks who went to the mat to nail Bonds so there's no reason to think they wouldn't do the same to Armstrong if there was evidence to go with. Again, it was the USADA that decided they'd run with that same evidence and just convict him in their own setting. And when the head of the World Anti-Doping Agency comes out with the quote of "He had the right to rip up those charges but elected not to. Therefore the only interpretation in these circumstances is that there was substance in those charges.", well, you have to question the integrity of an organization like that. Under that rationale, I can claim today that every athlete everywhere is doping and if they deny it then they are lying about it. See, I could work for the USADA now.

Lance has never given up a fight for anything in his life. Sounds like someone close to him took him aside and showed him some pretty damning evidence. If he elects to avoid arbitration then he can keep things ambiguous and still claim a "moral victory" and that he is the rightful holder of the titles.

The International Cycling Union (cycling worldwide's governing body) is demanding a "reasoned decision" from the USADA under Section 8.3 of the World Anti-Doping Code. It maintains the record book and has said it will take no action or make any further comment until the USADA renders that decision. It has also questioned USADA jurisdiction in the case and previously supported Armstrong's complaints that the USADA procedures were unfair. The ICU seems likely to challenge the USADA's claim to jurisdiction in the worldwide Court of Arbitration for Sports.

As of the moment, Armstrong could ride in any ICU event and, if I were him, I'd do it just to piss off the USADA.

Rob Iola wrote:

GannonFan wrote:
He probably did, but there's still that matter of actually proving he did. They couldn't prove it in court and the US Justice Department, after an extensive federal grand jury investigation, decided they couldn't prove it in court and dropped it. These are the same folks who went to the mat to nail Bonds so there's no reason to think they wouldn't do the same to Armstrong if there was evidence to go with. Again, it was the USADA that decided they'd run with that same evidence and just convict him in their own setting. And when the head of the World Anti-Doping Agency comes out with the quote of "He had the right to rip up those charges but elected not to. Therefore the only interpretation in these circumstances is that there was substance in those charges.", well, you have to question the integrity of an organization like that. Under that rationale, I can claim today that every athlete everywhere is doping and if they deny it then they are lying about it. See, I could work for the USADA now.

Lance has never given up a fight for anything in his life. Sounds like someone close to him took him aside and showed him some pretty damning evidence. If he elects to avoid arbitration then he can keep things ambiguous and still claim a "moral victory" and that he is the rightful holder of the titles.

I don't see that at all - if there was such "pretty damning evidence" the Justice Department would've pounced on that and nailed Armstrong in federal court for perjury and a host of other related offenses. And if there was something truly damning, considering that so much has been leaked on this case, we would've heard about it. The USADA and the worldwide group would love to nail him to the wall with solid evidence and would be crowing to the heavens if they had it. Right now they are coming off a somewhat desperate group in that they couldn't get any legitimate law enforcement group, let alone the governing cycling bodies, to go along with them. I don't see why they would hide the evidence right now when it would give them so much credibility if they had it.

I don't think there's anything more than what's already been leaked - several former riders and teammates, almost all of whom have admitted to doping or have been caught themselves through testing, will say that they saw Armstrong use or know of him using. And unfortunately, besides their own admitted past, the USADA and others gave these guys a lot of perks and reduced penalties in exchange for their testimony. No one has pictures, no one has documents, and there are no tests catching Armstrong in the act.

Like I said, I think it's almost a surety Armstrong was doping - the problem is no one can prove it.

GannonFan wrote:

Rob Iola wrote: Lance has never given up a fight for anything in his life. Sounds like someone close to him took him aside and showed him some pretty damning evidence. If he elects to avoid arbitration then he can keep things ambiguous and still claim a "moral victory" and that he is the rightful holder of the titles.

I don't see that at all - if there was such "pretty damning evidence" the Justice Department would've pounced on that and nailed Armstrong in federal court for perjury and a host of other related offenses. And if there was something truly damning, considering that so much has been leaked on this case, we would've heard about it. The USADA and the worldwide group would love to nail him to the wall with solid evidence and would be crowing to the heavens if they had it. Right now they are coming off a somewhat desperate group in that they couldn't get any legitimate law enforcement group, let alone the governing cycling bodies, to go along with them. I don't see why they would hide the evidence right now when it would give them so much credibility if they had it.

I don't think there's anything more than what's already been leaked - several former riders and teammates, almost all of whom have admitted to doping or have been caught themselves through testing, will say that they saw Armstrong use or know of him using. And unfortunately, besides their own admitted past, the USADA and others gave these guys a lot of perks and reduced penalties in exchange for their testimony. No one has pictures, no one has documents, and there are no tests catching Armstrong in the act.

Like I said, I think it's almost a surety Armstrong was doping - the problem is no one can prove it.

Since when does Lance walk away from a fight? He smelled smoke...

Rob Iola wrote:

GannonFan wrote:
I don't see that at all - if there was such "pretty damning evidence" the Justice Department would've pounced on that and nailed Armstrong in federal court for perjury and a host of other related offenses. And if there was something truly damning, considering that so much has been leaked on this case, we would've heard about it. The USADA and the worldwide group would love to nail him to the wall with solid evidence and would be crowing to the heavens if they had it. Right now they are coming off a somewhat desperate group in that they couldn't get any legitimate law enforcement group, let alone the governing cycling bodies, to go along with them. I don't see why they would hide the evidence right now when it would give them so much credibility if they had it.

I don't think there's anything more than what's already been leaked - several former riders and teammates, almost all of whom have admitted to doping or have been caught themselves through testing, will say that they saw Armstrong use or know of him using. And unfortunately, besides their own admitted past, the USADA and others gave these guys a lot of perks and reduced penalties in exchange for their testimony. No one has pictures, no one has documents, and there are no tests catching Armstrong in the act.

Like I said, I think it's almost a surety Armstrong was doping - the problem is no one can prove it.

Since when does Lance walk away from a fight? He smelled smoke...

Again, what smoke? If they had smoke the Feds could've slam dunked a case for perjury and Armstrong would be looking at jail time. However, the Feds backed off because they could never win a case in court. The Feds tend not to just walk away from easily prosecutable cases if "smoke" existed. Him walking away didn't change the outcome of this through the USADA - he was going to have to refute the oral testimony of several people who said he did cheat or knew of him cheating, and it was going to be his word against their's, and the USADA was already clear that he would lose. Whether he went to arbitration or not mattered little - the outcome would've been the same as it is today - the USADA thinks he cheated, he can't prove in their eyes that he didn't, and they have sanctioned him accordingly.

We can all think he probably did cheat - and he probably did - but that still doesn't amount to proof.

GannonFan wrote:

Rob Iola wrote: Since when does Lance walk away from a fight? He smelled smoke...

Again, what smoke? If they had smoke the Feds could've slam dunked a case for perjury and Armstrong would be looking at jail time. However, the Feds backed off because they could never win a case in court. The Feds tend not to just walk away from easily prosecutable cases if "smoke" existed. Him walking away didn't change the outcome of this through the USADA - he was going to have to refute the oral testimony of several people who said he did cheat or knew of him cheating, and it was going to be his word against their's, and the USADA was already clear that he would lose. Whether he went to arbitration or not mattered little - the outcome would've been the same as it is today - the USADA thinks he cheated, he can't prove in their eyes that he didn't, and they have sanctioned him accordingly.

We can all think he probably did cheat - and he probably did - but that still doesn't amount to proof.

Not what we think - it's what Lance thinks. And he just doesn't up and quit.

GannonFan wrote:

Rob Iola wrote: Since when does Lance walk away from a fight? He smelled smoke...

Again, what smoke? If they had smoke the Feds could've slam dunked a case for perjury and Armstrong would be looking at jail time. However, the Feds backed off because they could never win a case in court. The Feds tend not to just walk away from easily prosecutable cases if "smoke" existed. Him walking away didn't change the outcome of this through the USADA - he was going to have to refute the oral testimony of several people who said he did cheat or knew of him cheating, and it was going to be his word against their's, and the USADA was already clear that he would lose. Whether he went to arbitration or not mattered little - the outcome would've been the same as it is today - the USADA thinks he cheated, he can't prove in their eyes that he didn't, and they have sanctioned him accordingly.

We can all think he probably did cheat - and he probably did - but that still doesn't amount to proof.

What smoke? How about basically, his whole racing team has gone on the record saying that Lance cheated. If these guys had direct knowledge or were eyewitnesses to Lance taking PED's I believe a good lawyer would at the very least smear Armstrong's reputation more than by Lance taking the punishment by not moving on with the appeal/arbitration procedure.

Then again, it's only cycling. If cycling was a big deal you'd rattle off this year's tour de France champ just like that.................still thinking?......................he was British...........................won a medal in the Olympics..................and 98% plus of you STILL can't get it.

If there was "smoke", Armstrong would be in prison now...

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