Congrats to Bonds on HR #756

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Congrats to Bonds on HR #756

Postby Fresno St. Alum » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:31 am

No asterisk needed. He's still cranking them out and he sure as hell aint on roids now. I wonder how many pitchers he faced that were on roids. Not saying he needed to take them to be on an even playing field but I understand.
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Re: Congrats to Bonds on HR #756

Postby Grizball » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:56 am

I dont like the fact that he did roids at some point. I dont like him for it. But, I have to admit theres more to his hitting and power than whatever roids could bring. Others are or were on the juice, but they aint churnin on 700+ hr's.

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Re: Congrats to Bonds on HR #756

Postby lifesapuntreturn » Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:50 am

He better the enjoy the 756 thing because he's not getting into the HOF. Maybe he and McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, etc. can start their own club and vote themselves in.

I had to laugh at a post I saw elsewhere that said Bonds' head is big enough to have its own weather system. :laugh:
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Re: Congrats to Bonds on HR #756

Postby AppGuy04 » Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:31 pm

lifesapuntreturn wrote:He better the enjoy the 756 thing because he's not getting into the HOF. Maybe he and McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, etc. can start their own club and vote themselves in.

I had to laugh at a post I saw elsewhere that said Bonds' head is big enough to have its own weather system. :laugh:


I disagree. Bonds had 3 MVP's before any of the steroid stuff started. That alone is HOF caliber. I don't like the man, but his numbers are undeniable. Sure, it looks like he took roids, but the roids didn't hit 756 homeruns. They may have added 100-150 to his total, eventually giving him the record, but he was well into the HOF before that IMO. To say otherwise is just ignorant

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Re: Congrats to Bonds on HR #756

Postby lifesapuntreturn » Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:07 pm

AppGuy04 wrote:
lifesapuntreturn wrote:He better the enjoy the 756 thing because he's not getting into the HOF. Maybe he and McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, etc. can start their own club and vote themselves in.

I had to laugh at a post I saw elsewhere that said Bonds' head is big enough to have its own weather system. :laugh:


I disagree. Bonds had 3 MVP's before any of the steroid stuff started. That alone is HOF caliber. I don't like the man, but his numbers are undeniable. Sure, it looks like he took roids, but the roids didn't hit 756 homeruns. They may have added 100-150 to his total, eventually giving him the record, but he was well into the HOF before that IMO. To say otherwise is just ignorant


As Mark McGwire found out, and as Pete Rose has known for years, getting voted into the HOF is about a lot more than numbers. It's as political as it is statistical. The HOF voters sent McGwire a pretty clear message when he only got what, 28% of the votes this past election - something like that. That's a long way from the 70%(?) it takes to get in. The point is, what's going to change for any of those guys (McGwire, Palmeiro, Sosa, Bonds) that suddenly makes them more appealing to the HOF voters. Nothing. And if Bonds ends up in court over the whole BALCO thing and admits to using performance enhancers and/or the Mitchell commission comes up with something on him, he won't get in during my lifetime or the lifetimes of the current crop of voters. I think that's the way this will all play out and I therefore stand by my assertion that he won't get into the HOF. I don't see anything ignorant about that position.
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Re: Congrats to Bonds on HR #756

Postby Fresno St. Alum » Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:30 pm

Unless Bonds is found guilty of roiding it by the feds, he's a 1st ballot HOF'er. McGwire will eventually get in.
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Re: Congrats to Bonds on HR #756

Postby AppGuy04 » Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:37 am

Fresno St. Alum wrote:Unless Bonds is found guilty of roiding it by the feds, he's a 1st ballot HOF'er. McGwire will eventually get in.


That's my point. If MLB actually had anything on Bonds, he would already be suspended. That says to me that nothing will ever happen. There is no smoking gun. Someone would have to be a sacrificial lamb, and lets face it, that ain't gonna happen. Unless Bonds is convicted/suspended, he is easily in the hall. Doubt will not keep him from being a 1st ballot guy. Pete Rose was proved guilty and McGwire does not even have close to the numbers of Bonds, so thats apples and oranges.

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Re: Congrats to Bonds on HR #756

Postby lifesapuntreturn » Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:36 am

We'll see when Bonds becomes HOF eligible, I guess. But to say that McGwire and Bonds are apples and oranges is ignoring that McGwire didn't get into the HOF because of the steroid allegations AND the fact that he has done or said nothing to clear himself of those allegations other than to tell a congressional committee that he didn't want to talk about the past. That was nothing but legalese and that's obviously not what HOF voters want to hear. The same will be the case with Bonds. In his case, it'll be tough for him to have much credibility standing in front of a camera saying "I didn't do performance enhancers" with a head that's clearly enlarged.

The HOF voters don't want to hear the old Watergate era "non-denial denial" approach. They want to hear them say they didn't do it, period. The HOF vote, again, is political in nature, not legal. It won't take a conviction or guilty plea from these guys to keep them out. What is keeping McGwire out and will keep the others out is the denial, either explicit or implicit, that they did it when their physical appearance and their enhanced performance says otherwise. They pass neither the smell nor the eyeball test. And apparently they can't publicly deny these allegations or they would have done so already. These guys, including Bonds, have backed themselves into a corner. Their stats make them worthy of consideration for the HOF but their other issues will keep them out.

As far as what MLB has or doesn't have, that still undetermined. First of all, Bonds forced them to leave him alone for a while by virtue of being in this home run record chase. MLB would have been chastised and villified forever by some if they had stepped in and suspended Bonds when he was so close to breaking Aaron's record. And who knows what kind of lawsuits that would have brought them. So, MLB had to sit back and watch its most hallowed record be broken by a guy under investigation. Since that's now a non-issue, I think they will continue to wait on the whole BALCO thing in the hope that the legal system will do the dirty work for them. MLB may also be just sitting back waiting to get subpoenaed to testify in the BALCO thing, or maybe they already have testified in front of the grand jury. That way they can take the high road and say all they did was do what was legally required of them and again, let the legal system do their dirty work for them. I think there's still significant info out there that has yet to become public. The only way baseball is going to get past the "steroid era" is to deal with the problem publicly and move on. Until the media is satisfied that has happened, they will continue to hound baseball at every turn and baseball knows it. The same media, by the way, who comprises the HOF election committee. This is far from over in my view.
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Re: Congrats to Bonds on HR #756

Postby AZGrizFan » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:43 am

lifesapuntreturn wrote:We'll see when Bonds becomes HOF eligible, I guess. But to say that McGwire and Bonds are apples and oranges is ignoring that McGwire didn't get into the HOF because of the steroid allegations AND the fact that he has done or said nothing to clear himself of those allegations other than to tell a congressional committee that he didn't want to talk about the past. That was nothing but legalese and that's obviously not what HOF voters want to hear. The same will be the case with Bonds. In his case, it'll be tough for him to have much credibility standing in front of a camera saying "I didn't do performance enhancers" with a head that's clearly enlarged.



McGuire got 28% of the vote because he was from the beginning a one dimensional player, who's only redeeming quality was that he could hit the ball a country mile. He didn't get a lot of hits (1626 for his career), he didn't steal (12--that's right---12 total career stolen bases), he didn't hit for average (mediocre .263 career average), etc., etc., etc. One dimensional. It's THOSE figures than will/should keep him out of the hall.

Well, that and his performance in front of Congress. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Congrats to Bonds on HR #756

Postby NDSUFREAK » Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:45 am

i just hope someone else gets to the record
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Re: Congrats to Bonds on HR #756

Postby skinny_uncle » Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:23 pm

I was a big fan of Hank Aaron when I was growing up. At least Hank still has the RBI record. Bonds won't llast long enough to get the 300 more he would need to catch him on that list.
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Re: Congrats to Bonds on HR #756

Postby BigApp » Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:23 pm

IMHO, he'll either be dead or have serious organ problems by the time he's eligible. That's what happens to people who take that steroids designed for horses.
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Re: Congrats to Bonds on HR #756

Postby AppGuy04 » Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:35 am

AZGrizFan wrote:McGuire got 28% of the vote because he was from the beginning a one dimensional player, who's only redeeming quality was that he could hit the ball a country mile. He didn't get a lot of hits (1626 for his career), he didn't steal (12--that's right---12 total career stolen bases), he didn't hit for average (mediocre .263 career average), etc., etc., etc. One dimensional. It's THOSE figures than will/should keep him out of the hall.

Well, that and his performance in front of Congress. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Couldn't have said it better. Bonds is a 5 tool player, even today, McGwire had one skill and one skill alone. I will give him, and Sosa, credit for saving the game with that one skill, but thats why he isn't in the Hall and Bonds will be.

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Re: Congrats to Bonds on HR #756

Postby lifesapuntreturn » Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:12 am

Bill Mazeroski is in the HOF as a one tool player, fielding, which left a lot of people shaking their head. He is famous for one home run more so than anything else, but he's in. It wasn't all that many years ago he was voted in which means that essentialy the same group of voters put Mazeroski in who didn't put McGwire in. So much for the position that McGwire wasn't voted in because he only had one skill.
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Re: Congrats to Bonds on HR #756

Postby AppGuy04 » Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:03 pm

lifesapuntreturn wrote:Bill Mazeroski is in the HOF as a one tool player, fielding, which left a lot of people shaking their head. He is famous for one home run more so than anything else, but he's in. It wasn't all that many years ago he was voted in which means that essentialy the same group of voters put Mazeroski in who didn't put McGwire in. So much for the position that McGwire wasn't voted in because he only had one skill.


8 Gold Gloves is nothing to shake your head at. Defense is 1/2 the game is it not? So you are saying "sexy stats" are the only thing that people can be voted into the Hall for?

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Re: Congrats to Bonds on HR #756

Postby lifesapuntreturn » Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:12 pm

AppGuy04 wrote:
lifesapuntreturn wrote:Bill Mazeroski is in the HOF as a one tool player, fielding, which left a lot of people shaking their head. He is famous for one home run more so than anything else, but he's in. It wasn't all that many years ago he was voted in which means that essentialy the same group of voters put Mazeroski in who didn't put McGwire in. So much for the position that McGwire wasn't voted in because he only had one skill.


8 Gold Gloves is nothing to shake your head at. Defense is 1/2 the game is it not? So you are saying "sexy stats" are the only thing that people can be voted into the Hall for?


C'mon, AppGuy04, don't try to spin me, now. Your argument (and you quoted AZGrizFan, agreeing with his statement) against McGwire getting in was that he was a one skill /one tool /one dimensional player and that's why he isn't in the hall. My response was to use Mazeroski as a fairly recently inducted (2001)position player who was also a one skill/tool/dimensional player. In McGwire's case it was hitting for power, in Mazeroski's case it was defense. Since McGwire's stats are supposedly holding him back, how did Mazeroski get in with a career batting average of .260, 27 career stolen bases, and 138 homers, etc. etc. etc. His HOF bio says he was a "consistent batter", whatever that means regarding a guy with a .260 average. Consistently average, at best.

As long as the discussion is centering on one dimensional players and their success or lack thereof in getting into the HOF, there are numerous pitchers in the HOF who are only one skill/tool/dimensional players as well. Most of them have 300+ victories but there are a couple (Fingers and Sutter come to mind) who didn't even have a .500 W-L record but had 300 or more saves. Who's more one dimensional than a relief pitcher?

My point remains that McGwire's "one dimensional" status is not what kept him out of the hall - it was a message from the HOF voters regarding his suspected performance enhancement use. As it pertains to this thread, it was and remains my opinion that Bonds (and others mentioned before) will face that same type of scrutiny from the HOF voters. Along those lines regarding news of the last few days on this subject, Bonds did himself no favor by tangling publicly with Bob Costas. Costas is an icon among the sports journalism community and I would guess he's a HOF voter. Given his outspoken comments about Bonds now, I would guess Costas won't hesitate to speak out about his sentiments towards him when Bonds becomes HOF eligible and is on the ballot. That exchange made me wonder if Bonds already knows he isn't going to get in and he's just saying things now to tick off the media so when he comes up for election and doesn't make it, he can blame the media for it and point back in time to examples such as this exchange with Costas as the reason why. He has a reputation already for being surly with the media, this just added to it.
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Re: Congrats to Bonds on HR #756

Postby AppGuy04 » Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:22 am

I understand what you are saying, but Maz didn't have any speculation, and lets face it, thats all it is at this point, surrounding him. No doubt his famous bomb helped him get in, but why shouldn't it? It's one of the most historic homeruns in MLB history. You could say any accomplishment McGwire has achieved has now been called into question. So take that away and he essentially has nothing. You can't say that about Maz. If you look at it that way, McGwire has nothing IMO. Granted he hasn't been proven guilty, he has in the public eye, much like Bonds. The difference is, Bonds' name is all over the record books, even before the steroid era. Thats what will get him in.


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