MLB Off-Season News

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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby Gil Dobie » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:29 am

bandl wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
WAR :roll:

:lol: Good argument. :thumb:
Also, he gave up the most hits, most earned runs, and most home runs of any pitcher in the 1980s


I don't have time to do a list today of his totals from the 1980's, but I would be he had the most complete games, most innings, most shutouts, up there in K's. He said he didn't care if he gave up a homer in a 8-2 game.
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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby bandl » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:01 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
bandl wrote: :lol: Good argument. :thumb:
Also, he gave up the most hits, most earned runs, and most home runs of any pitcher in the 1980s


I don't have time to do a list today of his totals from the 1980's, but I would be he had the most complete games, most innings, most shutouts, up there in K's. He said he didn't care if he gave up a homer in a 8-2 game.

Well, you let us know when you have time to hit the googles for a list of his totals. When that time comes, it won't be difficult at all to refute your statement that he was the best pitcher of the 80's.

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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby Gil Dobie » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:14 pm

bandl wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
I don't have time to do a list today of his totals from the 1980's, but I would be he had the most complete games, most innings, most shutouts, up there in K's. He said he didn't care if he gave up a homer in a 8-2 game.

Well, you let us know when you have time to hit the googles for a list of his totals. When that time comes, it won't be difficult at all to refute your statement that he was the best pitcher of the 80's.


Good luck trying to change my opinion. :tothehand:
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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby Jjoey52 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:04 pm

Morris was very good he just doesn’t belong with the all time elite.


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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby bandl » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:28 pm

Gil Dobie wrote:
bandl wrote:Well, you let us know when you have time to hit the googles for a list of his totals. When that time comes, it won't be difficult at all to refute your statement that he was the best pitcher of the 80's.


Good luck trying to change my opinion. :tothehand:

I’m not 89, so you’re welcome to have a different opinion and I don’t really care to change your opinion.
But we’re talking facts here, and it is fact that he was not the best pitcher of the 80s.

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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby CAA Flagship » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:50 pm

I'm on the fence with Andy Pettitte. And IMO, he is ahead of Morris.

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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby SuperHornet » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:05 pm

Hershiser is better than all of those combined....
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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:56 am

bandl wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
Good luck trying to change my opinion. :tothehand:

I’m not 89, so you’re welcome to have a different opinion and I don’t really care to change your opinion.
But we’re talking facts here, and it is fact that he was not the best pitcher of the 80s.


Not going to change any facts, just happened to see these guys pitch during the 1980's. I'll even base this on WAR, your inconvenient statistic. The only debate from your list would be Stieb, and I am okay with Stieb being called the best of the 1980's. He was the other great pitcher thru the entire 1980's and another pitcher that didn't pitch to Pitchers. I would still take Morris if I needed a win. All the guys on your list were great pitchers, some compiled a high WAR with a 3-4 great years and then became ordinary pitchers after that. Others didn't pitch the entire 1980's.

1 Dave Stieb 45.2 1980 1989 22-31 140 109 2328.2 3.88
2 Bob Welch 35.1 1980 1989 23-32 137 93 2082.1 3.37
3 Fernando Valenzuela 34.8 1980 1989 19-28 128 103 2144.2 3.25
4 Bert Blyleven 34.0 1980 1989 29-38 123 103 2078.1 3.27
5 Orel Hershiser 32.8 1983 1989 24-30 98 64 1457.0 4.50
6 Roger Clemens 32.3 1984 1989 21-26 95 45 1284.2 5.03
7 Nolan Ryan 30.8 1980 1989 33-42 122 104 2094.0 2.94
8 Dwight Gooden 30.2 1984 1989 19-24 100 39 1291.0 4.68 :lol:
9 John Tudor 29.7 1980 1989 26-35 104 66 1622.2 3.66
10 Bret Saberhagen 29.0 1984 1989 20-25 92 61 1329.0 4.36
11 Charlie Hough 28.7 1980 1989 32-41 128 114 2121.2 2.71
12 Jack Morris 27.9 1980 1989 25-34 162 119 2443.2 2.28

Clemens, Saberhagen, Gooden, Hershiser didn't pitch the entire 1980's, so they are out of the conversation for the best pitcher of the 1980's, may be Gooden 1 year, Clemens a couple others, and Hershiser had a couple great years that pumped up their WAR for the 1980's. Welch, Valenzuela, Ryan, Tudor and Hough all pitched to pitchers, but Morris was still 6-4, 5-5 or 4-6 when comparing WAR on a year to year basis with these guys, 1-1. That comes down to Blyleven and Stieb. Morris had a higher WAR in 6 out of 10 years compared to Bert. Stieb, on the other hand, consistently had a higher WAR than Morris. I'll take Morris, because he was more likely to finish what he started.
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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:00 am

Jjoey52 wrote:Morris was very good he just doesn’t belong with the all time elite.


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Did you see him pitch? These guys did, and at least 12 thought he was worthy. Morris has 4 World Series rings, and pitched, probably the greatest game in World Series History.

George Brett, Rod Carew, Bobby Cox, Dennis Eckersley, John Schuerholz, Don Sutton, Dave Winfield and Robin Yount; major league executives Sandy Alderson (Mets), Paul Beeston (Blue Jays), Bob Castellini (Reds), Bill DeWitt (Cardinals) and David Glass (Royals); and veteran media members/historians Bob Elliott, Steve Hirdt and Jayson Stark.
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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby bandl » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:29 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
bandl wrote:I’m not 89, so you’re welcome to have a different opinion and I don’t really care to change your opinion.
But we’re talking facts here, and it is fact that he was not the best pitcher of the 80s.


Not going to change any facts, just happened to see these guys pitch during the 1980's. I'll even base this on WAR, your inconvenient statistic. The only debate from your list would be Stieb, and I am okay with Stieb being called the best of the 1980's. He was the other great pitcher thru the entire 1980's and another pitcher that didn't pitch to Pitchers. I would still take Morris if I needed a win. All the guys on your list were great pitchers, some compiled a high WAR with a 3-4 great years and then became ordinary pitchers after that. Others didn't pitch the entire 1980's.

1 Dave Stieb 45.2 1980 1989 22-31 140 109 2328.2 3.88
2 Bob Welch 35.1 1980 1989 23-32 137 93 2082.1 3.37
3 Fernando Valenzuela 34.8 1980 1989 19-28 128 103 2144.2 3.25
4 Bert Blyleven 34.0 1980 1989 29-38 123 103 2078.1 3.27
5 Orel Hershiser 32.8 1983 1989 24-30 98 64 1457.0 4.50
6 Roger Clemens 32.3 1984 1989 21-26 95 45 1284.2 5.03
7 Nolan Ryan 30.8 1980 1989 33-42 122 104 2094.0 2.94
8 Dwight Gooden 30.2 1984 1989 19-24 100 39 1291.0 4.68 :lol:
9 John Tudor 29.7 1980 1989 26-35 104 66 1622.2 3.66
10 Bret Saberhagen 29.0 1984 1989 20-25 92 61 1329.0 4.36
11 Charlie Hough 28.7 1980 1989 32-41 128 114 2121.2 2.71
12 Jack Morris 27.9 1980 1989 25-34 162 119 2443.2 2.28

Clemens, Saberhagen, Gooden, Hershiser didn't pitch the entire 1980's, so they are out of the conversation for the best pitcher of the 1980's, may be Gooden 1 year, Clemens a couple others, and Hershiser had a couple great years that pumped up their WAR for the 1980's. Welch, Valenzuela, Ryan, Tudor and Hough all pitched to pitchers, but Morris was still 6-4, 5-5 or 4-6 when comparing WAR on a year to year basis with these guys, 1-1. That comes down to Blyleven and Stieb. Morris had a higher WAR in 6 out of 10 years compared to Bert. Stieb, on the other hand, consistently had a higher WAR than Morris. I'll take Morris, because he was more likely to finish what he started.

"WAR/200 innings column so that we can normalize some of the guys who only played part of the decade. The best WAR/200s on the list:

Rk Player WAR WAR/200
1 Teddy Higuera 27.3 5.03
2 Roger Clemens 32.3 5.03
3 Dan Quisenberry 24.6 4.94
4 Dwight Gooden 30.2 4.68
5 Orel Hershiser 32.8 4.50
6 Bret Saberhagen 29.0 4.36
7 Dave Stieb 45.2 3.88

And the worst WAR/200 on the list:

Rk Player WAR WAR/200
1 Jack Morris 27.9 2.28
2 Frank Viola 25.1 2.70
3 Charlie Hough 28.7 2.71
4 Rick Sutcliffe 26.7 2.87
5 Nolan Ryan 30.8 2.94
6 Steve Carlton 25.6 2.96
7 Ron Guidry 25.5 3.11
Again, these are the worst of the best of the 1980s, so everyone one of these pitchers is pretty darn good. The gap between Morris and #2 is quite large, though."

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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby CAA Flagship » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:44 am

SuperHornet wrote:Hershiser is better than all of those combined....

Have you compared the stats?

Any pitcher who had 100 more wins than losses has made it into the HOF with the exception of
Bob Caruthers (pitched in 1800's), Pettitte, Clemens, and Mussina

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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:54 am

bandl wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
Not going to change any facts, just happened to see these guys pitch during the 1980's. I'll even base this on WAR, your inconvenient statistic. The only debate from your list would be Stieb, and I am okay with Stieb being called the best of the 1980's. He was the other great pitcher thru the entire 1980's and another pitcher that didn't pitch to Pitchers. I would still take Morris if I needed a win. All the guys on your list were great pitchers, some compiled a high WAR with a 3-4 great years and then became ordinary pitchers after that. Others didn't pitch the entire 1980's.

1 Dave Stieb 45.2 1980 1989 22-31 140 109 2328.2 3.88
2 Bob Welch 35.1 1980 1989 23-32 137 93 2082.1 3.37
3 Fernando Valenzuela 34.8 1980 1989 19-28 128 103 2144.2 3.25
4 Bert Blyleven 34.0 1980 1989 29-38 123 103 2078.1 3.27
5 Orel Hershiser 32.8 1983 1989 24-30 98 64 1457.0 4.50
6 Roger Clemens 32.3 1984 1989 21-26 95 45 1284.2 5.03
7 Nolan Ryan 30.8 1980 1989 33-42 122 104 2094.0 2.94
8 Dwight Gooden 30.2 1984 1989 19-24 100 39 1291.0 4.68 :lol:
9 John Tudor 29.7 1980 1989 26-35 104 66 1622.2 3.66
10 Bret Saberhagen 29.0 1984 1989 20-25 92 61 1329.0 4.36
11 Charlie Hough 28.7 1980 1989 32-41 128 114 2121.2 2.71
12 Jack Morris 27.9 1980 1989 25-34 162 119 2443.2 2.28

Clemens, Saberhagen, Gooden, Hershiser didn't pitch the entire 1980's, so they are out of the conversation for the best pitcher of the 1980's, may be Gooden 1 year, Clemens a couple others, and Hershiser had a couple great years that pumped up their WAR for the 1980's. Welch, Valenzuela, Ryan, Tudor and Hough all pitched to pitchers, but Morris was still 6-4, 5-5 or 4-6 when comparing WAR on a year to year basis with these guys, 1-1. That comes down to Blyleven and Stieb. Morris had a higher WAR in 6 out of 10 years compared to Bert. Stieb, on the other hand, consistently had a higher WAR than Morris. I'll take Morris, because he was more likely to finish what he started.

"WAR/200 innings column so that we can normalize some of the guys who only played part of the decade. The best WAR/200s on the list:

Rk Player WAR WAR/200
1 Teddy Higuera 27.3 5.03
2 Roger Clemens 32.3 5.03
3 Dan Quisenberry 24.6 4.94
4 Dwight Gooden 30.2 4.68
5 Orel Hershiser 32.8 4.50
6 Bret Saberhagen 29.0 4.36
7 Dave Stieb 45.2 3.88

And the worst WAR/200 on the list:

Rk Player WAR WAR/200
1 Jack Morris 27.9 2.28
2 Frank Viola 25.1 2.70
3 Charlie Hough 28.7 2.71
4 Rick Sutcliffe 26.7 2.87
5 Nolan Ryan 30.8 2.94
6 Steve Carlton 25.6 2.96
7 Ron Guidry 25.5 3.11
Again, these are the worst of the best of the 1980s, so everyone one of these pitchers is pretty darn good. The gap between Morris and #2 is quite large, though."


Sorry, not putting pitchers that were only there for 60% of the decade on the list. You are still looking at total WAR. Higuera was good, but top pitcher of the 1980's, not in my book. He had 3 great years from 1986-88, not the pitcher of the 1980's.

Who was better in 1980 Morris, Hershiser, Clemens, Gooden, Saberhagen? Same for 1981, 82, 83. That's 4 years Morris was better than any of those youngsters, just to start with.
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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby CAA Flagship » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:09 am

Why are you guys arguing over a defined period of time? It's meaningless.

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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby bandl » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:17 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
bandl wrote:"WAR/200 innings column so that we can normalize some of the guys who only played part of the decade. The best WAR/200s on the list:

Rk Player WAR WAR/200
1 Teddy Higuera 27.3 5.03
2 Roger Clemens 32.3 5.03
3 Dan Quisenberry 24.6 4.94
4 Dwight Gooden 30.2 4.68
5 Orel Hershiser 32.8 4.50
6 Bret Saberhagen 29.0 4.36
7 Dave Stieb 45.2 3.88

And the worst WAR/200 on the list:

Rk Player WAR WAR/200
1 Jack Morris 27.9 2.28
2 Frank Viola 25.1 2.70
3 Charlie Hough 28.7 2.71
4 Rick Sutcliffe 26.7 2.87
5 Nolan Ryan 30.8 2.94
6 Steve Carlton 25.6 2.96
7 Ron Guidry 25.5 3.11
Again, these are the worst of the best of the 1980s, so everyone one of these pitchers is pretty darn good. The gap between Morris and #2 is quite large, though."


Sorry, not putting pitchers that were only there for 60% of the decade on the list. You are still looking at total WAR. Higuera was good, but top pitcher of the 1980's, not in my book. He had 3 great years from 1986-88, not the pitcher of the 1980's.

Who was better in 1980 Morris, Hershiser, Clemens, Gooden, Saberhagen? Same for 1981, 82, 83. That's 4 years Morris was better than any of those youngsters, just to start with.

Comparing Morris to pitchers that weren't even in the league in 1980 or any other year is desperate and just makes your argument invalid. But I'll play along with that.
"Although he never won a Cy Young Award, he was in the top 5 in the voting five times and never higher than #3." Meaning he was never considered the best pitcher, or even second best, in the league in any year.
BTW, are we including 1988 and 1989 when talking about Morris as "best pitcher of the 80s"? Asking for a friend.

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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby bandl » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:20 am

CAA Flagship wrote:Why are you guys arguing over a defined period of time? It's meaningless.

Cuz that's one of the things we do here on CS. Prove a blanket homer-based statement to be incorrect.
Jack Morris was a very good pitcher. I won't argue against him being voted in the HOF. He just wasn't "the best pitcher in the 80s".

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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:32 am

bandl wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
Sorry, not putting pitchers that were only there for 60% of the decade on the list. You are still looking at total WAR. Higuera was good, but top pitcher of the 1980's, not in my book. He had 3 great years from 1986-88, not the pitcher of the 1980's.

Who was better in 1980 Morris, Hershiser, Clemens, Gooden, Saberhagen? Same for 1981, 82, 83. That's 4 years Morris was better than any of those youngsters, just to start with.

Comparing Morris to pitchers that weren't even in the league in 1980 or any other year is desperate and just makes your argument invalid. But I'll play along with that.
"Although he never won a Cy Young Award, he was in the top 5 in the voting five times and never higher than #3." Meaning he was never considered the best pitcher, or even second best, in the league in any year.
BTW, are we including 1988 and 1989 when talking about Morris as "best pitcher of the 80s"? Asking for a friend.


Comparing Morris to players that were not in the league, for 4 years, means I wouldn't consider them best for that period of time. Morris is one of those players that didn't get along with the media and never was voted in by the media. This time it was players that played against him, and other contributors from the time he played , with only 3 media members, that voted him in.

I think these guys know more about it than us or the media.

George Brett, Rod Carew, Bobby Cox, Dennis Eckersley, John Schuerholz, Don Sutton, Dave Winfield and Robin Yount; major league executives Sandy Alderson (Mets), Paul Beeston (Blue Jays), Bob Castellini (Reds), Bill DeWitt (Cardinals) and David Glass (Royals); and veteran media members/historians Bob Elliott, Steve Hirdt and Jayson Stark.
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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby bandl » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:43 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
bandl wrote:Comparing Morris to pitchers that weren't even in the league in 1980 or any other year is desperate and just makes your argument invalid. But I'll play along with that.
"Although he never won a Cy Young Award, he was in the top 5 in the voting five times and never higher than #3." Meaning he was never considered the best pitcher, or even second best, in the league in any year.
BTW, are we including 1988 and 1989 when talking about Morris as "best pitcher of the 80s"? Asking for a friend.


Comparing Morris to players that were not in the league, for 4 years, means I wouldn't consider them best for that period of time. Morris is one of those players that didn't get along with the media and never was voted in by the media. This time it was players that played against him, and other contributors from the time he played , with only 3 media members, that voted him in.

I think these guys know more about it than us or the media.

George Brett, Rod Carew, Bobby Cox, Dennis Eckersley, John Schuerholz, Don Sutton, Dave Winfield and Robin Yount; major league executives Sandy Alderson (Mets), Paul Beeston (Blue Jays), Bob Castellini (Reds), Bill DeWitt (Cardinals) and David Glass (Royals); and veteran media members/historians Bob Elliott, Steve Hirdt and Jayson Stark.

No matter how it is spun, getting voted into the HOF does not equate to being "the best pitcher in the 80s".

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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:48 am

bandl wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
Comparing Morris to players that were not in the league, for 4 years, means I wouldn't consider them best for that period of time. Morris is one of those players that didn't get along with the media and never was voted in by the media. This time it was players that played against him, and other contributors from the time he played , with only 3 media members, that voted him in.

I think these guys know more about it than us or the media.

George Brett, Rod Carew, Bobby Cox, Dennis Eckersley, John Schuerholz, Don Sutton, Dave Winfield and Robin Yount; major league executives Sandy Alderson (Mets), Paul Beeston (Blue Jays), Bob Castellini (Reds), Bill DeWitt (Cardinals) and David Glass (Royals); and veteran media members/historians Bob Elliott, Steve Hirdt and Jayson Stark.

No matter how it is spun, getting voted into the HOF does not equate to being "the best pitcher in the 80s".


I can agree with that statement.
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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby CAA Flagship » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:01 am

So Gil, what would you do with Pettitte and Mussina?

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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby bandl » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:04 am

CAA Flagship wrote:So Gil, what would you do with Pettitte and Mussina?

They're ex-Yankees, so they can both go f*ck themselves.
That's a FACT.

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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby CAA Flagship » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:14 am

Yankees traded Chase Headley to Padres to clear $13 million of salary.

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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:22 am

bandl wrote:
CAA Flagship wrote:So Gil, what would you do with Pettitte and Mussina?

They're ex-Yankees, so they can both go f*ck themselves.
That's a FACT.


Regardless of Sagarin, I mean WAR, Mussina yes, Pettite no because of steroids.
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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby CAA Flagship » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:40 am

Gil Dobie wrote:
bandl wrote:They're ex-Yankees, so they can both go f*ck themselves.
That's a FACT.


Regardless of Sagarin, I mean WAR, Mussina yes, Pettite no because of steroids.

:tothehand: It was HGH

Commonly, those in the media or in any popular culture conversation refer to Human Growth Hormone as an anabolic steroid. However, HGH is in no shape or form an anabolic steroid. Yes, it does carry strong anabolic properties, but being anabolic does not make something an anabolic steroid. Food is also highly anabolic, but no one would call chicken or ground beef an anabolic steroid.

https://www.steroid.com/Human-Growth-Hormone.php

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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby Gil Dobie » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:42 am

CAA Flagship wrote:
Gil Dobie wrote:
Regardless of Sagarin, I mean WAR, Mussina yes, Pettite no because of steroids.

:tothehand: It was HGH

Commonly, those in the media or in any popular culture conversation refer to Human Growth Hormone as an anabolic steroid. However, HGH is in no shape or form an anabolic steroid. Yes, it does carry strong anabolic properties, but being anabolic does not make something an anabolic steroid. Food is also highly anabolic, but no one would call chicken or ground beef an anabolic steroid.

https://www.steroid.com/Human-Growth-Hormone.php


I misremembered which it was.
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Re: MLB Off-Season News

Postby CAA Flagship » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:59 am

Gil Dobie wrote:


I misremembered which it was.

:lol: :lol:


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